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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 04:10:51
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Vuron, Grazzt's right hand man intrigues me. He is a very non Demon acting Demon. He is almost like a Demonized "Spock". Wouldn't mind seeing him pop up in a novel. He's was cool in those Gord books from way back.
What about you guys?
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 04:23:17
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Mephistopheles, and that's primarily because among all the archdevils, he's the one who receives the most screen time. Plus, I really want to see him fulfill his promise to Telamont. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 04:41:30
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| Besides the obvious, I'd have to say Geryon. The 4e fluff on him is very interesting, and I'd love to see it expanded on. Visually he has one of the best designs of any d&d creature, in my opinion. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 04:46:21
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Second on my list is Asmodeus. Though I still haven't gotten over my impression (upon reading Elminster in Hell) that Mystra could have easily squashed him had she had the mind on it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Aug 2011 04:46:58 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 04:58:14
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Possibly. She was a greater goddess on steriods and he wasn't true divinity at the time. Mystra could have squashed(with varying degrees of dificulty) anything short of Ao.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 05:09:59
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Exactly. Which seems unfair for the archdevils. Shouldn't they have some ultimate defense against any deities' intrusion? Maybe a godswall. Or Ao's decree for the gods never to directly interfere with archdevils in their own domains. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 05:19:41
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One of the reoccuring themes in a lot of d&d fluff is that when the gods, good or evil, make a move on the fiends, they have a habit of putting aside their differences to repell the threat, and that as a united force they are more than a match for whatever forces of good or divinity rally against them.
As much as I respect Ed's abilities at world crafting, however, I've never much cared for his approach to battles and fight scenes. He enjoys the concept of cannon fodder far too much. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 05:25:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
One of the reoccuring themes in a lot of d&d fluff is that when the gods, good or evil, make a move on the fiends, they have a habit of putting aside their differences to repell the threat, and that as a united force they are more than a match for whatever forces of good or divinity rally against them.
Even if all the archdevils unite, I doubt they stand a chance against three allied greater deities. Even the rifts in reality would cease to matter, because the gods could reseal them after they get rid of the archdevils. So, no, I don't think that uniting is enough assurance. There has to be something more plausible than that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 05:59:30
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I didn't say devils. I said fiends. They put the Blood War on hold.
It's been stated several times that without the blood war, either the demons or devils could take over the whole of the cosmos in relatively short order(few centuries, couple thousand years). The two of them uniting, even temporarily, would be a truly terrifying thing to behold for the few seconds you were alive long enough to behold it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 06:12:54
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They wouldn't take over if the gods---all of them, regardless of alignment---will also unite to repel such catastrophic plot. Toril is the gods' only playground which they cherish almost more than anything, so I doubt they would let an alliance of fiends to take that away from them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 06:33:28
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That's assuming the gods actually unite. What you're failing to account for is the cunning of the fiends, who would play the gods agaist each other; and the gods have many more personal grudges against each other than they do against the fiends.
Alternatively, as there are more of on type of demon(read; infinite) than there are all divine servants put together, the demons could due it through sheer numbers.
Now, this next point actually goes back to an earlier point you made as it's something I just remembered, and applies only to 4e, but it has been established that archfiends can kill greater gods in personal combat with at least 3 to 1 odds. Part of Demogorgon and Orcus' 4e backstory is that they(and a deceased demon lord who's name I forget) managed to kill a greater god, with Orcus landing the killing blow after Demogorgon got his head split in two. Asmodeus also managed to kill a greater god in single combat before he himself achieved divinity. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 06:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Possibly. She was a greater goddess on steriods and he wasn't true divinity at the time. Mystra could have squashed(with varying degrees of dificulty) anything short of Ao.
But I thought lord of a realm could match a divine being on his own turf. Asmodeus IMO always came of as more powerful than he showed. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 06:48:04
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Well, thing is, I've never actually read Elminster in Hell, nor do I have any particular desire to. So I can't give a personal impression based on the novel. Based on the universe itself, I don't think Mystra should be able to beat Asmodeus in Baator(at the very least, she shouldn't be able to beat him in Nessus), but even then I don't think Asmodeus would be able to "squash" her.
But Ed whether or not Ed would agree, that's a different question(one I doubt we'd get a straight answer to, given his distaste for "who would win" debates), but I don't hold any author(except maybe Alan Moore) above the temptation of character favoritism. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 07:03:14
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Azzy killed a greater deity? I thought he subsumed only Azuth prior to ascending to godhood. Azuth is a lesser deity, and he was badly "wounded" when he fell into the Nine Hells.
I don't discount the cunning of the fiends, but I also take into account the cunning of the gods, specially the ones who have it in their portfolio, like Mask, who could manipulate even the arguably most cunning of fiends to fall into their very schemes.
If I recall it right, it was noted by Ed that Mystra could take Azzy down but wouldn't do so because the powers she would have to unleash to eliminate Azzy and his countless minions in his very own domain are too great that they would rip the very fabric of reality. Which is exactly the reason she sent Halaster and Alassra instead to rescue El from Avernus. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 07:19:09
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A minor bit of 4e realms text, presumably written to tie into the Points of Light fluff that comprises the bulk of Asmodeus' backstory(and he's given a lot of backstory in 4e) mentions that he used to be a greater god himself eons ago, got his divinity stolen, and regained it by consuming Azuth. Assuming this ties in with his PoL backstory, he got his divinity by slaying his greater god master, He Who Was(or the realmsian equivalent), but instead of merely being locked in Hell afterwards, got his divinity stripped.
That being said, Mystra was considerably more powerful than the average greater god. And as this was written before 4e, that didn't apply back then. Then again the popular backstory at the time was that Asmodeus was really a miles long serpintine eldritch incarnation of evil, wounded though he may have been, might have put him closer to Mystra's level. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 09:28:28
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Hmmm... Favourite Arch-Fiend, eh?
Arch-Devil: Gargauth, assuming he even qualifies. If not, then Dispater (love the whole paranoid master of hell's metropolis thing).
Arch-Demon: Demogorgon, especially when teamed up with Dagon and fluffed out as he is in 4e. All very Lovecraftian. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 09:55:36
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| When it comes to demons I'm not particularly fond of any of them. If I had to choose, I'd say Pale Night if only because the "reality rejects her horrible form" schtick is pretty cool. Visually I love Orcus' 4e design, and I rather like a few of his cults, but I'm not big on him personally. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 09:58:32
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This is an easy one
Ashtaroth
The demon prentending to be a devil and answering summons and pleas from mortals trying to get some devilish help and ending up with demonic help instead.....   
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2011 : 19:55:27
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| For a while there, it was Orcus, but only while Velsharoon and Kiaransalee and Set were around. I always found it interesting to have those 3 and Shar to be backstabbing each other's cults... or temporarily allying against one of the other factions, then turning on their allies. Or have 3 or 4 of these groups all chasing the same "recently uncovered" device that was claimed by one of the other factions, and vying against the party to do so (or duping the party into serving them). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 05:39:17
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| Daru Ib Shamiq for many reasons. Plus he's older by eons than any other creature thus far named on the thread. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 07:02:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
That being said, Mystra was considerably more powerful than the average greater god. And as this was written before 4e, that didn't apply back then. Then again the popular backstory at the time was that Asmodeus was really a miles long serpintine eldritch incarnation of evil, wounded though he may have been, might have put him closer to Mystra's level.
I do recall some older lore that posited that Asmodeus' usual form (that of a tall, horned devil) is in fact merely a complicated yet corporeal illusion projected from his true form, the serpentine slug-like creature buried at the bottom of the Serpent's Coil of Nessus and which is still weeping blood from the wounds caused in his fall (each drop spawning a max-HD Pit Fiend with max HP per Hit Die). That his fall from the heavens in fact created the eighth and ninth levels of the Hells from the force of the impact.
And that he is potentially far more than any mere god (possibly even an overgod) in that he was one half of the original (now split apart) ouroboros, Asmodeus forming the prime force and manifestation of all Evil across the entire multiverse. It's interesting to theorise that Zaphkiel (the one who guards the gateway to the seventh layer of Mount Celestia) may be his equal and opposite. After all, Zaphkiel is the only one of the Hebdomad that has never been replaced or slain, and is also significantly more powerful (supposedly) than the others, much like Asmodeus is significantly more powerful than the other archdevils.
And really, Mystra's spell didn't seem do that much to him. It was divinely charged, cast by a goddess of magic (a very powerful greater deity, at that), and used a divine madness (that of Halaster) as a spell component, and its ultimate effect looked like a cantrip-level daze effect to me.
(My favourite archdevil, by the way, would probably be Asmodeus, though Mephistopheles is up there. Favourite demon would be Graz'zt or Malcanthet.) |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 12:57:19
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Abraxas, cause the forbidden lore and Final Incantation is interesting. In the same way Haagenti, the most creative demon, would invent the atomic bomb.
Or Xenghara, solar-looking entropic altraloth without purpose, not sure if he counts.
Of all the trickster-whore types, Sifkesh. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 13:17:55
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I would also vote for Glasya. Given time, she would most likely inherit Asmodeus's throne. Besides, rarely do we see an evil female who holds such power and status. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2011 : 15:52:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Daru Ib Shamiq for many reasons. Plus he's older by eons than any other creature thus far named on the thread.
Any of the baernaloth, really. Partly due to your own detailing, of course. But, also, because I've long been a particular fan of the baern and my own theories about connecting them to the Dark Powers of "Ravenloft."
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 00:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I would also vote for Glasya. Given time, she would most likely inherit Asmodeus's throne. Besides, rarely do we see an evil female who holds such power and status.
I'm a big fan of Glasya, as well. One of my major disappointments with 4e is that the Belial/Fiernia/Glasya plot didn't advance at all, or that they didn't further Glasya's plots for vengeance against Levistus. Oh well, homebrew.
Speaking of, I was recently informed about a character named Lixerhttp://worldsofimagination.com/monster%20devil%20Lixer%20Prince%20of%20Hell.htm , Asmodeus' son and co-heir with Glasya. An interesting character, though I can't say I like him much(little too hyper-competent for my tastes), but I can't seem to find anything resembling "offical" for him. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 01:05:36
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My vote goes to Gargauth for an archdevil and Baphomet for an archdemon. Gargauth's activities on Toril are just so scary and unpredicable. Baphomet is an uncontrollable force of bestial nature with a demonic cunning.
I am quite unfamiliar with all the bearnoloth lore but sure like their premise. Can't make a proper choice amongst them though. |
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Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 02:46:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
My vote goes to Gargauth for an archdevil and Baphomet for an archdemon. Gargauth's activities on Toril are just so scary and unpredicable. Baphomet is an uncontrollable force of bestial nature with a demonic cunning.
I am quite unfamiliar with all the bearnoloth lore but sure like their premise. Can't make a proper choice amongst them though.
What exists was mostly released during 2e Planescape, though they were later referenced in the 3.5 Fiendish Codex I, and in several of the late 3.5 Demonomicon articles. Basically they created yugoloths, demodands/gehreleths, obyriths, and the ancient baatorians (who were largely supplanted when Asmodeus and the future baatezu fell from true law to LE), and while most of them have since vanished from the known multiverse, abandoning it and their creations alike, the ones who still exist manipulate the other fiends like a giant game of chess with billion year long turns. Or they're utterly insane and wholly absorbed by the very spiritual wasting they represent, and long ago abandoned any meaningful role. Nobody knows. But they're possibly the oldest extant creatures in the planes.
Only two of them have ever been overtly named: Daru Ib Shamiq who was apparently responsible for granting the younger fiendish races their teleportation abilities, and Harishek Ap Thulkesh 'The Blind Clockmaker' (about whom little was said because I didn't have enough space in the article to do more than mention him, heh). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 03:18:42
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Daru Ib Shamiq, The Lie Weaver. I want to know more. I found some good information at Planewalker (thank you Shemeska!) is there more? I'm in the dark regarding Baernaloth. Help out a curious clueless Prime. |
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Edited by - Fellfire on 08 Aug 2011 04:00:22 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 03:27:04
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4e story paints the obyriths as coming from another universe that they had managed to destroy. They punched a whole into another universe, forcing a shard of pure evil through. They waited for someone to find it as their universe died around them, until the shard was discovered by Tharizdun, who used it to pull them through. After a prolonged battle, Tharizdun fled into the elemental chaos, planting the shard of evil at the bottom, where the abyss formed around it. The obyriths took residence there, and primordials were drawn in, where they became the first demons(Demogorgon, Orcus, and Baphomet among them).
Yugoloths, and baernaloths among them are listed as demons in 4e; no specific origin has been given to them but there's the suggestion/implication that there's something different about them than the others. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 03:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm a big fan of Glasya, as well. One of my major disappointments with 4e is that the Belial/Fiernia/Glasya plot didn't advance at all, or that they didn't further Glasya's plots for vengeance against Levistus. Oh well, homebrew.
I am hoping James P. Davis would make a sequel to The Shield of Weeping Ghosts and delve more into the plots of Levistus.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Speaking of, I was recently informed about a character named Lixerhttp://worldsofimagination.com/monster%20devil%20Lixer%20Prince%20of%20Hell.htm , Asmodeus' son and co-heir with Glasya. An interesting character, though I can't say I like him much(little too hyper-competent for my tastes), but I can't seem to find anything resembling "offical" for him.
I don't think that's canon. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 08 Aug 2011 03:53:40 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2011 : 04:37:11
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Yea, I doubted it was. Saw it brought up on tvtropes and looked into it; like I said, can't find anything on him except that and a couple other fan pages.
Personally I'm rather fond of the fan theory floating around that Graz'zt is Asmodeus' son. 4e changed him to an archdevil who invaded the Abyss on Asmodeus' orders and went native. A lot of people cried foul that it controdicted the lore about Graz'zt being the child of Pale Night and an unknown father until someone noticed that there was another piece of lore saying that Asmodeus had once mated with Pale Night, which can be used to tie the two stories together. Under this light I rather like the implications of Graz'zt as the rebellious prince. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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Who is your favorite Arch Fiend?
