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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2011 :  08:49:48  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Most religions in Faerun aren't supported financially from the taxes. What kind of work they do to get money? It's simple for Chauntea, Kelemvor and Tempus but for most others I don't know. Do the priests of Auril blackmail farmers with frost?

z455t

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2011 :  09:21:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Much like how religions survive financially in the RW: the faithful's offerings, rich or poor, willing or not.

As for most of the evil aligned deities, threats are understandably resorted to by their clergy. Auril could cloak the land in eternal winter unless the farmers give their share of bounty.

Every beginning has an end.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4608 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2011 :  11:39:13  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the above is true, "freewill" donations, some of which do not feel so free there also goods and services made available for purchase. Selling healing potions or other minor items of magic, protection scrolls and so on. Further of course some faiths bless those that work a craft. It depending could be goods like wine or ale, tools, weapons, and so on.
One would need to look at each faith to see if a Cleric is required to have a craft or profession skill. Those that do often become a source of revenue. Some could even be hired as lie detectors or paid to act as a justice in secular matters.

Never forget some also adventure and their share of the loot goes to the faith, or at least part of it.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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xaviera
Learned Scribe

Canada
149 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2011 :  05:42:46  Show Profile  Visit xaviera's Homepage Send xaviera a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aside from planning parties, maybe offering dance lessons or shows, providing massages, running bath houses and selling toilettries (soaps, perfumes, etc.), I can think of one major source of revenue for at least some Sharessin.

Oh. And cat food.


Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2011 :  05:52:14  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaviera

Aside from planning parties, maybe offering dance lessons or shows, providing massages, running bath houses and selling toilettries (soaps, perfumes, etc.), I can think of one major source of revenue for at least some Sharessin.

Oh. And cat food.




Indeed. And don't forget dog food.

---

In addition, some priests, specially the high priests, are advisers and/or personal healers of kings, nobles, and other major or minor influential people from the government. That connection alone is more than enough for gold to come flowing into the church's treasury.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 04 Aug 2011 05:58:17
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1275 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2011 :  14:04:52  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think isolation (by geographic location or dogma) could be a defining factor of how 'mercantile' a certain church is.

Chapels that lie along the roads, far from settlements should be selfsufficient. They have need of a waterhole, a little patch of arable land a a few beasts of burden. To travellers they'd sell sheltering, minor religious magic items and some of their foodstuffs and ales. Some of the acolytes might be set to scribe scrolls and religious tomes. These clerics and clergymen are often poor by choice. Exceptions might arise if their lands yield excellent produce, for example a famous ale (hey, years of isolation has its benefits as practise makes perfect!).

Village churches could be relieved from doing peasant work by accepting the villagers tithes and donations. Being affiliated to a richer church is another way for a steady income to come the village church's way. These clergymen are allowing themselves a bit more personal wealth (often those in high rank claim the largest share of the income while those beneath him are little better of then chapel priests). Papermaking, bookbinding and scribing local tomes and religious edicts to add to the body of holy scriptures might be another source of income for a medium sized church. Creating (religious) objects may yield some extra silver. Think of candle making, lamp oil mixing, weaving of cloth and rope, small poultrices and brews (healing kits) and certain tools for measurement and woodwork (such as mathematical dividers, augers, bit and bridle, hammers and the like).

Fully integrated city cathedrals usually have ammassed large amounts of wealth by performing choice miracles for wealthy patrons and the many smaller blessings for the flock. Think of resurrections, royal wedding rituals and disease curing as the main sources of coins. Cities with a government that have close ties to churches would give certain amounts of tax to the cathedrals as well. Very specialized cathedral produce (religious art, music, expertise) might come for sale in the form of stained glass panels, rare chalices, wooden or metal sculptures, musical instruments, religious vestments and scents and spices. The various religious orders might be hired for specialised tasks such as mathematical excersize, bookkeeping, guard duties or war.

Adventurers are the last form of income and usually produce vast spikes in wealth for the lucky churches they bring their tithes to.

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Edited by - Bladewind on 04 Aug 2011 14:19:01
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1275 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2011 :  15:58:01  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This topic sparked my interest in the business of churches in medieval times. Very interesting stuff can be read in this article!

The article mentiones a distinct differance in the way income is generated by dividing the church in a secular part and monastic part. The secular clergy generates income largely by providing services from religious experts. These archbishops, deacons and senior priests offer services such as the organisation of major religious festivals and ceremonies, giving rulers advice, dispencing judgements over religious matters (ranging from relief from marriage to infanticide), dispencing edicts of faith (religious laws)

I found out several prices for services that secular churches provided around 1300 in England.
marriage costs 6 pence (i'd say a pence is more or less equal to a fearunian silver)
funeral costs 9 pence
purification costs 1,5 pence ('t was thought after childbirth women needed these)
court service depended on the crime
state service costs the leader a benefice or a months wage

The monastic part of the church were the land owners and had the same feudal rights as manoral lords. They recieved tithing equal to 1/10th of the income of their peasants and required payment for their services in mediecal care and hospitality. They also rented their lands, and owned mills and the produce they provided. Most also provided education for lords children. Alms were collected in addition to all this to provide the monastery with extra resources for poor relief and charity.

It's clear these monasteries were money making enterprizes. The excess cash flow actually went up via the city cathedrals and the secular clergymen, all the way to Rome. Some were very aggressive in defending their wealth and used their clout in judge courts to demand fees from trespassers, landowners that they had problems with and vandalisers. Monasteries were expected to donate 1/3rd of its wealth to poor relief, but in practise this was often less then 1%(!).

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1275 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2011 :  15:49:02  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After some further study I found another valid source of income for monks and priests: the sins of the lords and ladies knowingly committed out of the necessity of the times. Therefore a new monetary system was set up: the Indulgences.

A typical knight or feudal lord was constantly on a campaign to fight for this or that cause. Many lives were taken due to the intense fighting and these kills would inevitably rack up on the amount of sin a knight was collecting in his lifetime. To ensure a knight still was eligible for entering heaven he paid of his sins by having a monk pray for about 180 days per kill. This required a monetary investment of about 1 to 6 pence a day. If you set 60 pious monks to worship it would cut the time to 2 days of prayer. Some great conquerors of the time had wholly new monasteries built filled with monks who did nothing but pray for their knightly lords salvation.

A sin such as incest would cost about 6 pence and could be removed with seven days of prayer, fasting and reading from scripture. Adultery, burglary, infanticide and perjury (lying) all had their own prices and length of indulgence. The time was believed to reduce the days spent in Purgatory, where the souls was cleansed of sin before entering heaven.

In the Realms, I can see this system of Indulgence as actually practical and less focused on sin. The services of a specific priest or cleric are likely to be in high demand by any self respecting ruler. Priestly actions such as a Tempus cleric blessing his war host during short sorties to rid his realm of troublemakers, an Ilmateran removing madness or diseases in his (noble) family, a priest of Savras divining proper courses of action when ruling, a novice of Talona seeking out poisonous food and drinks (especially during feasts) and other activities where priestly magic can come in handy, are bound to occur on a monthly basis.

I can further see the many holy days of the Faerunian churches to be a source of income (even after the clergies have to invest considerable capital into arranging the whole affairs). A local ruler would do well in the eye of the public to sponsor these feasts, as most peasant have the day of during them and would regard the ruler as their supporter at the least. A peasant would probably give thanks by offering a tithe to the clergy that held the holiday.

These business relationships of the churches with the movers and shakers of the Realms would eventually blossom into one of the foundations of a sound economic system in a city. Cash and coin flowing from peasant (to rulers) to churches in a tightly controlled bureaucratic system where all would benefit from each-others services. A quick glance at the most opulent religious houses in a city can give you a good indication of how the city values its main activities and livelihoods.

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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  11:59:35  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know why the faiths don't have a greater influence on the economy. Because it is easier to become a 1st level cleric than a mage. Waukeen would really like indulgences, most good gods would reject them as fake. Instead of indulgences Gond would like if you support a struggling inventor or artist.

z455t
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35438 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  14:21:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see the idea of indulgences working as well in a pantheistic setting. With a monotheistic set-up, priests of that one deity basically have a monopoly on your access to the afterlife. With a pantheistic set-up, something one deity doesn't like is perfectly acceptable, if not encouraged, by another deity.

Plus there's the atonement spell, and in the Realms, a history of deities forcing their followers to work for forgiveness -- there's not a history of buying it off.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4608 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  17:02:02  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see the idea of indulgences working as well in a pantheistic setting. With a monotheistic set-up, priests of that one deity basically have a monopoly on your access to the afterlife. With a pantheistic set-up, something one deity doesn't like is perfectly acceptable, if not encouraged, by another deity.

Plus there's the atonement spell, and in the Realms, a history of deities forcing their followers to work for forgiveness -- there's not a history of buying it off.



In some ways the atonement, quest or whatever required is a way to buy good grace again. However clearly a price that can not be demanded and as such not a viable business option.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe

USA
170 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2011 :  18:44:10  Show Profile  Visit Synthalus's Homepage Send Synthalus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
offerings from the devot and maybe even adventuring priests that make donations to there church?

"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories)
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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2011 :  16:21:14  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't see the idea of indulgences working as well in a pantheistic setting. With a monotheistic set-up, priests of that one deity basically have a monopoly on your access to the afterlife. With a pantheistic set-up, something one deity doesn't like is perfectly acceptable, if not encouraged, by another deity.

Plus there's the atonement spell, and in the Realms, a history of deities forcing their followers to work for forgiveness -- there's not a history of buying it off.



Some people think money can buy everything, there is not damnation like in monotheism, there's the False-ness

z455t
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2011 :  11:34:55  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't buy that the churches survive on tithes and donations. In my homebrew world some occupations are specifically divided. In the Realms it would be e.g.:

Bane - political advisors, politicians, law enforcement, executioners, inquisitors, slavers, arms and drug dealers, kidnappers, terrorists, bounty hunters

Gargauth - lobbyists, lawyers, politicians, bankers, forgers

Azuth - sell minor magic items, organize mage fairs

Auril - guides to the lands cut off by snow, defense against frost, hail, winter sports, ice-sculpting ... lol

Edited by - Quale on 23 Aug 2011 11:35:16
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2011 :  07:01:14  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Quale that religious orders (or whatever) couldn't survive on tithes (who do you tithe to if the city has ten temples and a dozen shrines?) or donations, necessarily.

In the real world we see that religious institutions often make money by other means, such as brewing, farming, renting out spaces, and so forth. The Church of Waukeen, for example, might make most of their wealth by conducting actual business rather than just donations. But Temples may not need that much money either, and could be self sustaining with the members of the temple getting by with their own labour, just like self subsistence farmers. Clerics of Auril might live in the wild and survive by hunting, building lodges, and stuff to live in. People don't absolutely need money in Faerun necessarily as we do if you don't need to have it to buy groceries and pay rent or taxes.
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Marc
Senior Scribe

633 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2011 :  07:40:37  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The church of Bane certainly forces people to pay tithes, like in medieval times uses their fear and ignorance. Clerics of Siamorphe I guess are sucking up whole day to the nobles, telling them how high and mighty they are.

.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1275 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2011 :  20:36:13  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that the bulk of the divine community would see a shrine (an unmanned religious gathering place) as sufficient to conduct their religious practise. Building larger temples or cathedrals requires a significant amount of wealth. But clearly SOME clergies do make lots of money if you look at the size of their houses of worship.

If you look at the amount of money some adventuring clerics make some larger temples are easier to explain if they had been funded by their wealth. After its finished they'd need the increasing revenue of an adventurer to sustain themselves though. I think that's why most kits described in 2nd edition and Powers and Pantheons require their members a tithe of 1/10th of their wealth each month/year. This would give most temples a good incentive to keep close ties/track their adventuring members across the realms. Without such an adventuring revenue a church would indeed need some service that is valued enough and can be demanded from the surrounding populace. I'd say a typical and common profession the clergies provide would be education.

But I still think a good ruling council or other govermental body would invest in building houses of worship of as many benevolent churches they can afford. The perks of a well represented pantheon (like longevity from healing and restorative magic, blessing and protection and divine prophetic guidance) in a village attracts people, who can bring prosperity to their (city-)state.

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Edited by - Bladewind on 24 Aug 2011 20:37:59
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1275 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2011 :  01:29:46  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our own lovely THO revealed a little of the mystery we're discussing here:

quote:
"Hi again, all.
Bladewind, Ed just got back home from FanExpo yesterevening, and of course has a backlog of real-world stuff to urgently attend to (like showing up for his day job, getting his wife to med appointments, cooking and laundry and sorting out the recycling and garbage, etc.), but I can start on answering you...
Almost all clergies accept (and expect) offerings from worshippers in return for certain prayers (and almost all spellcastings) and services (burials, consecrations, blessings of a new business, etc.). Almost all clergies combine these funds to buy land and build properties, and become landlords, taking in a constant stream of rents from tenants, tenant farmers, and "rental" farmers.
Many clergies serve as banks/safe deposits, securely storing all manner of things for commoners (from legal documents to Great-Grandma's mummified fingers), especially for poor commoners who may be homeless or fear for the security of their "stuff" when they're off working or trying to scrounge food...and for those who travel for work, like drovers, caravan guards, wagon merchants, etc. Temples also do the moneylending/moneychanging/valuables storage functions of real-world banks, and of course charge fees for doing so. And like real-world banks, they invest such funds, and the money they earn from offerings and rents, in livestock and farm crops and cargo ships and businesses, charging interest on such loans. So most urban and "verdant breadbasket rural" temples are wealthy, not poor. (This all comes from Ed's notes.)
Hope this helps!
love,
THO"


Both insightful and very scary. This means most clergies are rather more powerful and ingrained in the economic system of the realms than I ever imagined. It makes them more powerful because they can convert this financial banking activity into power over their subjects, which means they are likely to be able to add to their political leverage in their active regions. As most of this money is lend from commoners, the more wealthy a region's community is the more wealthy the churches will become.

I fear that their expertise in making business decisions beneficial to themselves is likely to amount to a deal of corruption. Their business acumen is most likely to surpass those of typical commoners (all profession skills are modified by high wisdom scores!) and lying to them about their way they spend their banked money could very well lead to arcane financial practices that enrich the temples to obscene levels...

Also... Debt Crises and Real Estate Financial Bubbles anyone? oO !!!

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2011 :  07:31:38  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder in which countries this goes on, they'd have more political power
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1275 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2011 :  23:00:07  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can bet that the regions where Waukeenars are active they'll have very strong political clout. I can see some kingdoms being indebted to a Waukeenar temple for huge sums of coin. This would mean Waterdeep, the Vast, Thesk, Tashalar, Sembia, Narfell, the Lake of Steam, Impiltur, The Golden Water, Cormyr, Chessenta and Amn, where Waukeen is a popular goddes, religious clergy members are to be expected to be present at the ruling courts and council halls.

I even see how a church or group of temples could use their wealth to steer certain countries into war. A religiously funded war (a crusade) is much more likely to succeed as temple money can be spend on good equipment and elite war companies. Some unscrupulous temples might even use wars as there main use for investment moneys. Temples of Bane, Tempus, Garagos, Red Knight, Torm and even Nobanion might see crusades as effective means of increasing their wealth and influence over a region.

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2011 :  09:12:24  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, it's weird that description of the Waukeen's church in Lands of Intrigue doesn't mention much debt. The focus was always on the Shadow Thieves and that they run the show

and the religious wars were quite rare if you look at the timeline
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2011 :  09:29:52  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

Our own lovely THO revealed a little of the mystery we're discussing here:

[quote]"Hi again, all.
Bladewind, Ed just got back home from FanExpo yesterevening, and of course has a backlog of real-world stuff to urgently attend to (like showing up for his day job, getting his wife to med appointments, cooking and laundry and sorting out the recycling and garbage, etc.), but I can start on answering you...
Almost all clergies accept (and expect) offerings from worshippers in return for certain prayers (and almost all spellcastings) and services (burials, consecrations, blessings of a new business, etc.). Almost all clergies combine these funds to buy land and build properties, and become landlords, taking in a constant stream of rents from tenants, tenant farmers, and "rental" farmers.
Many clergies serve as banks/safe deposits, securely storing all manner of things for commoners (from legal documents to Great-Grandma's mummified fingers), especially for poor commoners who may be homeless or fear for the security of their "stuff" when they're off working or trying to scrounge food...and for those who travel for work, like drovers, caravan guards, wagon merchants, etc. Temples also do the moneylending/moneychanging/valuables storage functions of real-world banks, and of course charge fees for doing so. And like real-world banks, they invest such funds, and the money they earn from offerings and rents, in livestock and farm crops and cargo ships and businesses, charging interest on such loans. So most urban and "verdant breadbasket rural" temples are wealthy, not poor. (This all comes from Ed's notes.)
Hope this helps!
love,
THO"

Wow. I did not expect the church is influential in that way. Did Ed mention which particular church/es and at which particular realm/s?

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1275 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2011 :  17:52:17  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye, Ed himself lifted out temples of Waukeen, Talona and Umberlee with examples.

quote:
There are of course many more sources of clerical income, such as the sale of holy relics and their lesser cousins, "favors of the god" (meant to bring good luck to the bearer or household), "tokens of the god" (holy symbols of recognition and veneration for the common/lay worshipper rather than the "holy symbol" a priest carries; i.e. the equivalent of a real-world Catholic crucifix worn by an "ordinary" man or woman), but you missed the BIG one: priesthoods delivering verbal and written messages, documents, and small valuables over vast distances, from one individual to another [e.g. to relatives or family members], "altar-sworn" for safe delivery (i.e. the priests swear before the deity to deliver whatever it is faithfully, without altering or distorting it, pilfering from it, or violating its privacy if possible [obviously, the contents of a verbal message are known to the bearer, but a written message will NOT be unsealed or read by any member of the priesthood, nor will they allow a third party to read it], upon pain of losing the favor of the deity = being expelled from the church), for fees. In other words, almost all faiths in the Realms offer a FedEx-like service, and derive cumulatively great amounts of income from doing so.
(There's an interesting sideline to this: someone in possession of something unique that will get him or her killed, such as stolen royal regalia, may well in desperation deliver it into the hands of temple priests with a fee to deliver it to a fictitious person or one the sender, but few or no others, know to be dead . . . so the priesthood will now keep and conceal the item(s) "forever" as they seek to deliver them to the proper person . . . whom they will never be able to find.)


So saith Ed. Who also reminded me of the longstanding practices of certain priesthoods (such as that of Waukeen) who engineer price rises and currency inflations, and profit thereby (by loading or unloading their stores of coinage or goods at times of high margins). And clergies (those of Umberlee and Talona, for example) who in effect deal in "protection rackets" by demanding offerings of appeasement to keep the "holy wrath" of their deity away from those making the offerings.
The more you dig, the deeper Ed's Realms are revealed to be . . .
love,
THO

Indeed, those protection rackets mentioned by Ed will extend further to most other evil deities with prominent temples. I can see how in the Moonsea area, the Zhents would be used as the main agents that extract some of these extortion coins. Sharran temples might have started to use Shadovar agents for this openly in Sembia. The Shadowthieves do this all over Fearun, mainly for Mask but some for Loviatar and Cyric.

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