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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  18:49:23  Show Profile Send Aryalómë a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like her as cn.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
292 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:09:55  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

I like her as cn.



That's your absolute right, and have fun with a CN Zinzerena in your home campaign!

In the official DnD alignment system/cosmology, however, I believe that it is unthinkable that a deity with the portfolio of "assassins" would be non-evil - that part of the Dragon article must be an error, as Eltheron wrote.
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:15:15  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

[...]

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




I agree. Who wrote that article, by the way?


Frederick Weining wrote that Dragon article, though it also says "based on out-of-print material by Gary Gygax and Monte Cook". It was one of those "optional add-on" types of articles they did back then, specifically written for Oerth-Greyhawk, and includes Kiaransalee (although her name is oddly spelled, "Kiaransali"), as well as a male drow deity called "Keptolo". Both Keptolo and Kiaransali are in direct service of Lolth, with this Kiaransali having more of a focus on slavery and executions than undeath, and Keptolo being the deity of flattery and obsequious Lolth-love. It's quite odd. Additionally, Zinzerena gained her divinity by stealing power from Keptolo... as such, she is an interloper deity to the Realms, tied specifically to this Oerth version, because there's no other reference anywhere to a Keptolo of which I'm aware.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:23:07  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

I like her as cn.



That's your absolute right, and have fun with a CN Zinzerena in your home campaign!

In the official DnD alignment system/cosmology, however, I believe that it is unthinkable that a deity with the portfolio of "assassins" would be non-evil - that part of the Dragon article must be an error, as Eltheron wrote.


IMO, the "CN" in this article is just a typo mistake, considering that her litany is written thus:

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.


If that isn't clearly CE, I'm not sure what is, LOL. And, she's listed as the drow deity of assassins.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 19 Jul 2011 19:24:39
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
292 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:24:14  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron


IMO, the "CN" in this article is just a typo mistake, considering that her litany is written thus:

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.



If that isn't clearly CE, I'm not sure what is, LOL.





Thanks for all the info!

Edited by - Thieran on 19 Jul 2011 19:25:39
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:25:53  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron


IMO, the "CN" in this article is just a typo mistake, considering that her litany is written thus:

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.



If that isn't clearly CE, I'm not sure what is, LOL.





Thanks for all the info!


No problemo!

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  19:29:52  Show Profile Send Aryalómë a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's not neccesarily CE. It's more self serving.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
292 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  13:00:09  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

That's not neccesarily CE. It's more self serving.



Alas, in the DnD cosmology/alignment, it is clearly evil. You might disagree, but you will find yourself part of a small minority.

Compare, for instance, the litany of Zinzerena as quoted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Raise yourself up by bringing others down. Don't reveal your strength, or your hatred, until your victim is helpless. Don't strike until you have the advantage; the only "fair" fight is the one you win. Once the trap is sprung, make time to gloat for the kill. The legs of the spider are made to be broken.




with a quote from the 3.5 SRD regarding alignment:

quote:

“Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.



But as pointed out above, have fun with a neutral Zinzerena in your home campaign.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  21:04:10  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Here's the thing. Being "pretty sure" or saying "I think" or "I believe" or "I seem to remember" is insufficient when providing a source. Episodes of reality TV, personal anecdotes, web pages (even wikis), don't cut it either.

The question here isn't whether Zinzerena was in Menzo. On Hallowed Ground, the source I mentioned from Planescape, establishes Zinzerena's presence there. Other material supports this, and Lolth supplanting her later. Drow of the Underdark relates her story in more detail, but it's a core book and not necessarily specific to FR. Demihuman Deities is the source for the Realms that clearly states that Lolth ultimately killed Zinzerena or at least drove her influence from the Realms.

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




Well, if I remembered exactly WHERE it was, I'd cite it. I think I've proven often enough that when I have the sources at hand, I'm more than happy to provide them. But since A) most of my books have been in storage for over a year and a half, and B) I don't own a copy of that particular trilogy (and probably never will, as I refuse to endorse the decisions made by WotC as part of the story), I simply can't quote chapter and verse as I would like. HOWEVER- my memory is usually pretty good on matters of all things drow, and in fact, the issue of Dragon you mentioned is in fact the very one I mentioned myself- except that I did not have the issue number handy. That was the Vault of the Drow update for 3.5 I brought up, and it was very good, all things considered. Zinzerena was mentioned in that article, and I agree that the alignment listed there was a typo. As far as her having been in Menzo, it was simply a minor side-note that I thought had some bearing on the discussion at hand, since Lolth seems to frequent that city as well. Whether she was actually killed there is anyone's guess.....

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2011 :  21:47:54  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Here's the thing. Being "pretty sure" or saying "I think" or "I believe" or "I seem to remember" is insufficient when providing a source. Episodes of reality TV, personal anecdotes, web pages (even wikis), don't cut it either.

The question here isn't whether Zinzerena was in Menzo. On Hallowed Ground, the source I mentioned from Planescape, establishes Zinzerena's presence there. Other material supports this, and Lolth supplanting her later. Drow of the Underdark relates her story in more detail, but it's a core book and not necessarily specific to FR. Demihuman Deities is the source for the Realms that clearly states that Lolth ultimately killed Zinzerena or at least drove her influence from the Realms.

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




Well, if I remembered exactly WHERE it was, I'd cite it. I think I've proven often enough that when I have the sources at hand, I'm more than happy to provide them. But since A) most of my books have been in storage for over a year and a half, and B) I don't own a copy of that particular trilogy (and probably never will, as I refuse to endorse the decisions made by WotC as part of the story), I simply can't quote chapter and verse as I would like. HOWEVER- my memory is usually pretty good on matters of all things drow, and in fact, the issue of Dragon you mentioned is in fact the very one I mentioned myself- except that I did not have the issue number handy. That was the Vault of the Drow update for 3.5 I brought up, and it was very good, all things considered. Zinzerena was mentioned in that article, and I agree that the alignment listed there was a typo. As far as her having been in Menzo, it was simply a minor side-note that I thought had some bearing on the discussion at hand, since Lolth seems to frequent that city as well. Whether she was actually killed there is anyone's guess.....


If you do find it or remember the book, I'd love to know where. At this point, I think there has been a lot of speculation about Zinzerena (and I'm not referring to Candlekeep, but other websites), and finding little fiddly-bits of lore on the drow is just... fun! It doesn't seem to be in the LP series, though, based on my keyword lookup.

Anyway, if I were to engage in speculation... I'd think that Lolth actually didn't kill her. Given Zinzerena's finesse with illusion and misdirection, I personally suspect that she left the Realms and went back to Oerth, or someplace else. She's just too interesting to kill off (although I said the same thing about Eilistraee... and I agree, what WotC did considering Eilistraee's popularity was simply a travesty).

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2011 :  04:21:31  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I doubt I will ever read those again, unfortunately, unless my local library gets them (Doubtful- I've moved since I read them and the new town's library is just- well crappy is the nicest word to describe it...) because as I said, I refuse to actually buy that particular series. (I'm not supporting WotC on that decision, regardless of how much I like their other novels.) I doubt it was something you would find in a keyword search, since I don't think she was directly mentioned by name- just something about Lolth having "dealt" with an upstart goddess while putting her other plans in motion. It was the briefest mention only IIRC, and seemed to have been added as an afterthought- a way to explain why she never showed up in the showdown, considering the fact that every other drow deity appeared at some point. (except for Keptolo, as was pointed out earlier.) The only reason I remember it at all was because I thought it was amusing that the "unnamed" goddess of assassins had been hiding right in Lolth's own backyard, as it were. Wish I remembered the specific book- that really bugs me, actually.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

728 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2011 :  04:31:47  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I doubt I will ever read those again, unfortunately, unless my local library gets them (Doubtful- I've moved since I read them and the new town's library is just- well crappy is the nicest word to describe it...) because as I said, I refuse to actually buy that particular series. (I'm not supporting WotC on that decision, regardless of how much I like their other novels.) I doubt it was something you would find in a keyword search, since I don't think she was directly mentioned by name- just something about Lolth having "dealt" with an upstart goddess while putting her other plans in motion. It was the briefest mention only IIRC, and seemed to have been added as an afterthought- a way to explain why she never showed up in the showdown, considering the fact that every other drow deity appeared at some point. (except for Keptolo, as was pointed out earlier.) The only reason I remember it at all was because I thought it was amusing that the "unnamed" goddess of assassins had been hiding right in Lolth's own backyard, as it were. Wish I remembered the specific book- that really bugs me, actually.


Hrrrm... I'll try some different keyword searches on LP and let you know if I find anything.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2011 :  05:47:58  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said, it may have been WotSQ, but if so, it was one of the later ones. All I have at hand are the first two, and I don't think it was either of those.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2012 :  11:30:26  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

Who is your favourite Drow deity and why?



My favourite is Kiaransalee (which probably doesn't come as a surprise).

I find her appealing since she is the goddess of undeath, which, in my own campaign, I develop into being the goddess of transitions. Undeath capturing, or freezing, that moment between life and death.

I think some of the appeal is that she is covered less than Lolth, which means you can develop the concept more fully and other players don't arrive at the table with a host of preconceptions.

In my own campaign, I have the Dark Seldarine as House Drow, or Quellar Ilythiiri. With Lolth as the Matron Mother, Vhaeraun as Patron, Kiaransalee as First Daughter, Selvetarm as Weapons Master/First Son, Eilistraee as Second Daughter and Zinzereena as Third Daughter. I've also got two custom deities, to make the total up to eight.

Oh, and 'Hello' to those who remember me from years ago.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2012 :  14:40:00  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
In my own campaign, I have the Dark Seldarine as House Drow, or Quellar Ilythiiri. With Lolth as the Matron Mother, Vhaeraun as Patron, Kiaransalee as First Daughter, Selvetarm as Weapons Master/First Son, Eilistraee as Second Daughter and Zinzereena as Third Daughter. I've also got two custom deities, to make the total up to eight.



Like the idea. I toyed with something similar. Could you write more (here or via PM) about the two custom deities?

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
470 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2012 :  16:53:49  Show Profile  Visit Old Man Harpell's Homepage Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vhaeraun. He's the only one sticking up for 35% to 40% (depending on location) of the drow race (males). He's also one of the few who is (was) actively trying to stick it to The Woman without trying to 'redeem' them.

Eilistraee would have gotten my vote otherwise. She was the one drow deity who gave a choice to the uncommon non-evil drow (who are now all but non-existent).

Both are (were) counterbalances to their mother, and have avoided her fate of becoming almost a caricature of 'evil drow deity'.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  09:10:23  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael

Could you write more (here or via PM) about the two custom deities?


Here they are:
Karas - Divine Second Son, God of Divination and Scrying, N
A demi-god who specialises in divination.

Kyorl - Divine Fourth Daughter, Goddess of Psionics, CN
After falling for years first through the Claw Rift then through dimensions, Kyorl Odran regained control of her form and her mind. During her fall, she developed her psionic abilities further, taking them to new heights and becoming a demi-god.

I'll send you some more info' via PM. Please let me know if you've received it.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.

Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 23 Jan 2012 09:13:26
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  12:18:33  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to go with Elistaraee. I always prefer to root for the underdog.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2012 :  12:20:07  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I thought they could have/should have done a lot of things differently on that score. For one thing, Eil's change to the Masked Lady was far too short. There was much more that could have been done with that.
[/quote]
Thats very true. I loved her as the Masked lady and then they kill her off is such a brutal manner.
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2012 :  01:34:04  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't vote, because my answer wasn't there. For me, any of them but Lolth. If WotC wanted to cause a shake-up with the Spider Queen series, they should have killed her off. And I know that might make me unpopular, but I've never treated anything as a popularity contest (as Sage and Wooly can attest to over the years).

Edit: My apologies; yes, I can vote in this poll, because Kiaransalee would be my choice for head of the drow pantheon after Lolth's death. If you want to make the drow truly evil villains again, that's the way to go, imho. And the following quote is exactly why I'd kill off Lolth; she dominates the pantheon to an excessive degree. Instead, 4E killed off the rest of the pantheon. Just another reason I didn't go Fourth.

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Lolth, just because I hardly know the rest.



And you'll never get a chance to know them, Dennis, unless the WotSQ series gets retconned or "alternate-timestreamed". Honestly, I think the pantheonic changes in the 4E Realms were made solely so that someone (and I won't claim to know who, as I know that a lot of 4E changes were mandated from the top) could say that they killed a horde of false heathen gods. But that's my attempt to be light-hearted about what happened at the end of 3E. I'm hoping I won't have to try to be light-hearted about what happens at the end of 4E, but I won't pass judgement until I've seen that new Realms book due out at the end of the year. Until then, I'm going to keep flogging my horse and hoping it makes it to 5E without dying.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 25 Jan 2012 01:48:44
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1265 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2012 :  02:13:13  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

I didn't vote, because my answer wasn't there. For me, any of them but Lolth. If WotC wanted to cause a shake-up with the Spider Queen series, they should have killed her off. And I know that might make me unpopular, but I've never treated anything as a popularity contest (as Sage and Wooly can attest to over the years).

Edit: My apologies; yes, I can vote in this poll, because Kiaransalee would be my choice for head of the drow pantheon after Lolth's death. If you want to make the drow truly evil villains again, that's the way to go, imho. And the following quote is exactly why I'd kill off Lolth; she dominates the pantheon to an excessive degree. Instead, 4E killed off the rest of the pantheon. Just another reason I didn't go Fourth.


Wow, that is a really interesting idea. I like it a lot. Lolth has pretty much been the same over the past few decades, and she hasn't shown much in the way of growth, change or development. Even during her "silence" and transformation to a greater deity, she still pretty much remained exactly the same.

Kiaransalee becoming the head of the drow pantheon would've been very interesting indeed. In a lot of ways, it would've been consistent with drow culture... the tired old matron getting sliced and replaced by the younger.

I also thought, back a few years ago, that it would've been interesting to have Lolth split into two personas, one as Lolth and the other as Araushnee the weaver. Any shake-up, really, would be good for the drow. Killing off the rest of the drow pantheon just returned it to a sort of "one note" for their culture. I really liked Eilistraee as the Masked Lady, brief as it was. It just feels like there's been a lot of missed opportunities to add some real depth to the drow.

4E Realms was awful, but it's water under the Boareskyr Bridge. Let's make 5E Realms truly shine!
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2012 :  03:07:56  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise


Wow, that is a really interesting idea. I like it a lot. Lolth has pretty much been the same over the past few decades, and she hasn't shown much in the way of growth, change or development. Even during her "silence" and transformation to a greater deity, she still pretty much remained exactly the same.



Yep. And this is why I haven't been a Lolth fan since my high school years of playing late 1E and early 2E. When Monster Mythology came out for 2E, it gave me other options for the drow, and 3E expanded those options. And then 4E took away all those options again.

quote:
Originally posted by Therise


Kiaransalee becoming the head of the drow pantheon would've been very interesting indeed. In a lot of ways, it would've been consistent with drow culture... the tired old matron getting sliced and replaced by the younger.



Actually, I hadn't even thought of it in that respect... but yes, I like that a lot... I think I may steal that, if you don't mind... but then, I suppose it's not stealing, then, is is?

quote:
Originally posted by Therise


I also thought, back a few years ago, that it would've been interesting to have Lolth split into two personas, one as Lolth and the other as Araushnee the weaver. Any shake-up, really, would be good for the drow. Killing off the rest of the drow pantheon just returned it to a sort of "one note" for their culture. I really liked Eilistraee as the Masked Lady, brief as it was. It just feels like there's been a lot of missed opportunities to add some real depth to the drow.



You know, I had much the same thought re: Lolth/Araushnee split. I don't remember my original concept, but I just thought of something interesting now... what if Angharradh (sp?) (the elven triune goddess) assisted in instigating this split, and a part of herself (actually a part of each of the three "component" elven goddesses) is left within Araushnee? Just enough to remind her of the pleasure of her distant past as Corellon's consort, and perhaps to awaken a new desire to rejoin her former lover... but not enough to overwhelm her by-now-innate evil? If she wants to rejoin Corellon and the Seldarine, she has to convince them she is worthy... perhaps by killing her "other self"? But there's a catch... if Lolth dies, she dies too... unless she can do something, the details of which I've not hashed out yet... one option is, make Lolth hate herself as much as she (Araushnee) now hates herself. I've always loved self-loathing as a divine theme.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 25 Jan 2012 03:09:29
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2012 :  14:21:24  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

I didn't vote, because my answer wasn't there. For me, any of them but Lolth. If WotC wanted to cause a shake-up with the Spider Queen series, they should have killed her off.


The whole War of the Spider Queen series, all six books could be neatly summed up, by 'Looks like change, nope, business as usual.' The start was lovely, so much potential, then it turns out that nothing changes. I wouldn't have been in favour of getting rid of Lolth, because I just don't like the idea of gods that can be killed, but there was a rich possibility.

One of the changes that made me stay at 3rd Edn was the wide-spread cull of the many deities in Forgotten Realms. Getting rid of that rich detail was a mistake in my opinion. The rich detail made the Realms different, and meant more to discover and try out.

As regards, anyone but Lolth. In my own game, I took the option of making the Dark Seldarine a tight pantheon. So now the drow have a pantheon that looks like a noble House; something they can relate too. Lolth's the Matron but she recognises that a Matron isn't anything without a strong House. Of course, I altered many of the alignments too. CN seems to suit Lolth better in my opinion.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.

Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 25 Jan 2012 14:23:03
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  03:44:49  Show Profile Send Lady Shadowflame a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted Vhaeraun. Eilistraee used to be my favourite, and I'm still more fond of her than Lloth, but Vhaeraun just kind of intrigues me these days.

The bit I became dubious on with Eilistraee was the Changedance. It made sense... from our perspective. Not from a drow one.
Reasons omitted for brevity and not feeling like raising them in this space.

It'll suffice to say I think drow guys got a bit of a rough deal; Eilistraee is nicer to them than Lolth, but still not as even-handed as one's ideal good-aligned deity could be.

Vhaeraun is evil, but the equality thing interests me. Plus the cooperation notion. Here's a god who, despite being evil, still has the foresight to go 'Okay, you guys, all this infighting is just stabbing yourself in the foot. How about we get organised? I get that hating everything is fun for you, but it's not very productive.'

I should reiterate, though, that outside that one issue I still really really like Eilistraee. They're both very interesting to me, all in all.

Save a lizard... Ride a drow.

Edited by - Lady Shadowflame on 27 Jan 2012 03:47:29
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Imp
Learned Scribe

231 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2012 :  06:30:09  Show Profile Send Imp a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you find them both interesting, Lady Shadowbane, than there's always Eilistraee The Masked Lady. :D

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Edited by - Imp on 27 Jan 2012 06:30:28
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