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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  01:33:02  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She's got the guts to forge her own path. I like that a lot. She is also less concerned with some all-encompassing goal of conquest, which makes her less the typical drow deity, too.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  01:37:13  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Allystra-Are we going to continue to rp at the inn? xD

I also feel that she's an underdog, someone who could have really been brought into force in the Realms, but WotC decided differently...... I like that she's not really evil and not all goodness and light too and not concerned about going back to the surface.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  01:51:25  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still waiting for CT to reply. I didn't have much to add to the last post, so I thought I'd see what he is going to do first.


Personally, I thought they could have/should have done a lot of things differently on that score. For one thing, Eil's change to the Masked Lady was far too short. There was much more that could have been done with that.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  02:20:46  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you think Zinzerena would have gotten along with the Seldarine. None of her lore states she has any bad feelings towards them, maybe she could be allied with Erevan?
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  02:50:21  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say she would more likely ally with Vaerhaun- both being rogues, y'know.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  03:12:26  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zinzerena is chaotic evil and a demi-goddess of assassins. As such, she's an enemy of the Seldarine.

Here's a quote from On Hallowed Ground:
quote:
Zinzerena is evil, amoral, and totally beloved by the drow who wish to throw off the shackles of the matron mothers. As the patron of assassins and chaos, she teaches the value of cruelty, stealth, misdirection, and survival by any means necessary....



"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  05:21:12  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She's chaotic neutral in the other settings with chaotic evil tendecies.

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zinzerena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinzerena#Zinzerena
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  07:19:17  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say those are not very accurate. The only two write-ups on her that I'm aware of have her listed as CE. One in Monster Mythology, and another in an issue of Dragon.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  11:15:05  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What are these settings where she is listed as Chaotic Neutral?
On Hallowed Ground is what I would put the most stock in. Her description makes her sound absolutely evil.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  18:33:02  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She was evil in the monster Mythology, too. And the Dragon article was for Greyhawk, the only other setting in which she appears.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  18:46:26  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zinzerna was "in" FR, she was just either killed or banished by Lolth. In some othe sources, more recent ones I believe, she was said to be chaotic neutral with chaotic evil tendecies. Her priests can be all of the chaotics and neutral.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30295 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  21:00:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil

Zinzerna was "in" FR, she was just either killed or banished by Lolth. In some othe sources, more recent ones I believe, she was said to be chaotic neutral with chaotic evil tendecies. Her priests can be all of the chaotics and neutral.



I think we need sources for this.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  02:32:11  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will note that Zinzerena is listed among other Prime Material gods in the 2e For Duty & Deity adventure model.

It's the only known reference to this particular deity in the Realmslore, that I can immediately recall.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  03:05:20  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She was supposedly lurking in Menzo for a time, but was hunted down and subsumed by Lolth, last I recall- this was mentioned very briefly in one of the LP books, I believe. That's the only source I can think of for her in Realmslore, but no mention of alignment was made- for obvious reasons. (Novels tend to stay away from that sort of thing.)the article on Vault of the Drow Update in Dragon was the only other recent mention of her.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  04:51:52  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Source?

Brace Cormaeril
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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:01:50  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish we could get more of Zinzerena, she could be amazing. She could be a neutral Eilistraee (without the cheesy (sorta) redemption).
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:24:25  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So there aren't actually any official references for Zinzerena being CN, other than "some settings" somewhere?


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:48:49  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Source?

I believe Alystra referenced the "Lady Penitent" trilogy. I'm assuming that's what "LP" referred to.

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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  05:55:39  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Source?

I believe Alystra referenced the "Lady Penitent" trilogy. I'm assuming that's what "LP" referred to.


Just did a text keyword search for "Zinzerena" in the whole LP series, wasn't there.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  06:10:48  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, you were correct, Sage. Eltheron, you using the kindle version? I don't have those books- checked them out of the library once, and never bought them (too depressing) so I can't be absolutely certain it was in them, but I seem to remember an off-hand comment about her by Lolth in one of the novels. She may not have been mentioned by name, but I remember laughing when I read it, because I knew it was her. It was one of the few times I've seen her mentioned outside of older sources. Might have been one of the WotSQ series (likely a later one). Pretty sure it was LP, though.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  07:33:51  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the thing. Being "pretty sure" or saying "I think" or "I believe" or "I seem to remember" is insufficient when providing a source. Episodes of reality TV, personal anecdotes, web pages (even wikis), don't cut it either.

The question here isn't whether Zinzerena was in Menzo. On Hallowed Ground, the source I mentioned from Planescape, establishes Zinzerena's presence there. Other material supports this, and Lolth supplanting her later. Drow of the Underdark relates her story in more detail, but it's a core book and not necessarily specific to FR. Demihuman Deities is the source for the Realms that clearly states that Lolth ultimately killed Zinzerena or at least drove her influence from the Realms.

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe

Spain
726 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  09:02:02  Show Profile  Click to see Thelonius's MSN Messenger address Send Thelonius a Private Message  Reply with Quote
mmmmm I'd go for Vhaeraun, liked his appearences in the WotSQ series, but also like Kiaransalee, in fact in NWN1 made a "drow" (dark skinned elf) cleric devoted to her. In fact I finally voted for Kiaransalee

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est

Edited by - Thelonius on 19 Jul 2011 09:03:27
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1189 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  11:25:00  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really like Selvetarm best. Mostly because his followers are so bad ass. They pray to him right on the battlefield after they've taken their first kill!

Selvetarms story is also quite intriguing and he could have been an interesting member of the Seldarine if things hadn't gone Lolths way for a change.

My campaign sketches

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AryalůmŽ
Senior Scribe

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  15:38:33  Show Profile Send AryalůmŽ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I totally agree.
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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
292 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2011 :  18:38:26  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

[...]

Zinzerena was listed as CN in Dragon #298. But that is the only place where she is listed as CN, and it's for Oerth-Greyhawk, anyway. Even so, reading the text for her in the same article, it's clear that "CN" is definitely an error, especially since other published sources agree that she is CE.




I agree. Who wrote that article, by the way?
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