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Analysis
Acolyte
4 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 00:16:25
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I am considering introducing an undead druid in a campaign, specifically a ghoul. However, I am uncertain on which, if any, of the deities which empower druids would accept an undead follower. I thus ask those of you who may know: is anything written on this? Are there any precedents? I assume someone like Silvanus is all out? Does Malar have an opinion either way?
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 00:40:03
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Hard question, really, because undead by definition are an abomination to the natural order of things. I couldn't see any nature deity empowering an undead.
That said, does it have to be a nature deity who is providing the divine magic? Gods like Cyric get their kicks out of slowly corrupting anything and everything, and might pretend to be one of the darker nature deities in order to accomplish some other, more evil goal. |
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 01:10:16
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Undead appear not to be of nature, deities that would support one likely would be of Death. I can not think of any that would empower a Durid with spell casting ability.
Further last I knew a ghoul was a mindless creature. *shrugs* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Analysis
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 01:15:57
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At least in 3.5 there are definitely ghouls that are non-mindless, even a template (gravetouched ghoul) which certainly is not.
Similarly in 3.5, druids cannot be empowered by a deity which is not formally a nature deity, though the list includes some weird examples such as Isis.
The old Faiths and Pantheons book (IIRC) mentions clerics of at least Umberlee, Talos and Talona being able to command rather than turn undead, and mentions Umberlants creating undead. However, I don't know if other sources say anything more on how the various nature deities regard undead. |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 01:32:26
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You might want to read up on Lossarwyn the Ice Lich, from Champion's of Ruin (starts on p83), the last paragraph in his background history (p85).
It talks of the Eldreth Veluuthra approaching him for training...
"He has taught them his method of drawing upon the divine power of nature, freeing them of the need to call upon a deity for their spells"
Not sure if this is applicable to a ghoul though... |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
515 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 03:50:52
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| Talos may possibly sponsor druid liches. He's been known to sponsor necromancers into lichdom, so I'd say a lich druid of Talos could be at least a scant possibility, especially if they intend to further the cause of nature's destructive powers. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 05:18:49
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I personally don't see unnatural undead perversions and druid treehuggers being at all compatible, I would personally suspect that any druid who became undead would lose his class abilities entirely.
Although, having said that, D&D is a game built upon wonderful exceptions to the rule. In my mind Malar would be the most suitable choice for such a character because his interests lie in savage and bestial things, although Talos would be a good choice (as explained above by Galuf) and one might even argue that Kelemvor could sustain such strange notions to use as agents who enforce some sort of natural life-and-death balance. Beast cults and "pagan" variations on these or other "mainstream" deities would perhaps be better suited, since they needn't obey the dogma and dictates of the established "orthodox" religion ... your ghoulish druid character might have a very interesting life, perhaps being part of a religion which has but a handful of followers and all sorts of interesting holy missions, wars, and crusades to undertake. A great oppotunity to tweak the druid class and spells a bit, especially if you assert that different abilities are necessary to survive when constantly hunted by mainstream druids.
Another interesting idea might be Shar producing some sort of undead counterpart to Selûne's lycanthropic priesthood. |
[/Ayrik] |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 05:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Analysis
I am considering introducing an undead druid in a campaign, specifically a ghoul. However, I am uncertain on which, if any, of the deities which empower druids would accept an undead follower. I thus ask those of you who may know: is anything written on this? Are there any precedents? I assume someone like Silvanus is all out? Does Malar have an opinion either way?
(Spoiler)
In the Johnny Depp movie "Sleepy Hollow," there is an undead druid that helps Ichabod Crane on his quest.
(End Spoiler)
That being said, I think putting an undead druid in your campaign is something that can enrich your gaming table. In both 2e & 3e/3.5e, ghouls & ghasts are sentient (as in they're not mindless like zombies, though there are ju-ju zombies and IIRC they're sentient, but that's another story). However, while they can effectively converse in the language they spoke when living, I believe the change to ghoul/ghast adversely affects not juss thier flesh, but also their minds, wherein unlike the vampire or lich, they can't cast spells anymore (2nd Spoiler: I learned that from a quest in the 3e PC game Neverwinter Nights 1's Official Campaign End 2nd Spoiler).
Thus, if you were to make an undead druid, I think it'd be better if you made them either a lich, vampire, mummy, revenant, or another type of intelligent undead that I haven't mentioned.
Also according to my Neverwinter Nights 2 manual (a 3.5e source)druids can cast divine spells like clerics do, but most get their spells from nature rather than from deities. Though that's not to say that they can't get spells from deities, they juss have the option to get it from nature instead. Of course nature-based deities like Silvanus & others can grant druid spells too (re: the 2e multi-class option of Cleric/Ranger gets spells usually only reserved for druids).
And I wouldn't rule out a good or neutral deity being the god/goddess of your undead druid. You'll simply have to give a deep backstory for 'why' the deity has done such a thing, what the deity expects, the contingencies the deity has if his/her subject doesn't fulfill the deities purpose etc. etc. It's a heavy burden you're putting on this character, so there must be alot of thought put into it, so that your character isn't rendered into mere novelty.
Cheers. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 15 Jul 2011 05:56:43 |
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Analysis
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 09:36:53
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Thank you all for your various perspectives.
Talos vs necromancers (including Velsharoon IIRC) could probably be seen as a precedent, yes.
Drawing power from nature itself contradicts material like the 3rd ed Forgotten Realms Campaign setting, and while Lossarwyn implies an exception, I've seen some online developer discussion where that was described as something that should have been removed during editing but didn't.
The ideal solution, I guess, might be to let deities like Ghaunadaur or Moander count as nature deities, and thus allow them followers that, mechanically, are druids... |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 11:37:09
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| Perhaps a baelnorn? |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 13:35:10
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| Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help? |
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Darkhund
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 15:52:28
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Ubtao has some of his chosen as Undead that have druid levels.
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 16:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
Ubtao has some of his chosen as Undead that have druid levels.
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead.
I wasn't aware that any of his barae were undead... Immortal, yes, but not undead. |
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Analysis
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 21:15:15
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| Where can I find information on the Chosen of Ubtao? Might not be what I need, but sounds interesting nonetheless. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Analysis
Where can I find information on the Chosen of Ubtao? Might not be what I need, but sounds interesting nonetheless.
Powers & Pantheons, The Jungles of Chult, and Ring of Winter. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Darkhund
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:17:05
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| I'm prepared to admit I could be wrong, but I was sure one was undead. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 22:55:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help?
That's a nifty idea... A water-based undead cleric for Umberlee, or an ice-based undead spellcaster, roaming the tundra...  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 23:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help?
That's a nifty idea... A water-based undead cleric for Umberlee, or an ice-based undead spellcaster, roaming the tundra...
Mwahahaha! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 03:32:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead.
Source?
[I'm asking because that particular tidbit isn't rining any SageBells in my head.]  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 03:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
Hmmmmm, would a deity like Umberlee, Blibdoolpoolp, or Auril help?
That's a nifty idea... A water-based undead cleric for Umberlee, or an ice-based undead spellcaster, roaming the tundra...
And given that both the watery depths and/or icy tundra can make for some truly gruesome deaths, the prospect of a water-based undead cleric or ice-based undead spellcaster... is frightening indeed! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 04:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
One even has the ability to raise anything that has died on Chult as undead.
Source?
[I'm asking because that particular tidbit isn't rining any SageBells in my head.]
Ras Nsi is described as being able to do this in Ring of Winter. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 23:12:35
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| Malar seems like the best deity to have a ghoul servant. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 20:50:09
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I think Moander is a fantastic choice. After all, rot is part of the cycle of life. Plus, I'm partial to the Maw.
The Entombed from Frostburn would be even more frightening with a few class levels. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 05:08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I think Moander is a fantastic choice. After all, rot is part of the cycle of life.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one to have thought of this! 
I'm not sure how Moander/Finder would really feel about an Undead, but death and rot are all part of nature and can easily be applied to a druid (in fact, the PHB2 for Pathfinder has several alternate rule-sets for the classes, and a Druid of decay is one of them! Something I've been wanting to play for a long time actually. ) |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:37:33
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As a general rule, I would say no. The undead violate so much of what druids stand for... However, there are always special cases.
I can envision the following scenario: Imagine someone sailing on the sea, and Umberlee, in one of her rages decides to sink the ship. Perhaps someone on it - or the entire crew - offended her. Everyone dies a horrible death by drowning. Yet, one person is cursed to live in undeath - cursed to live and serve the Bitch Queen - to protect the seas, to send a message to all that despoil the ocean. They are cursed to remember their own folly and suffer for it eternally, so that all that encounters this individual KNOWS her wrathful anger.
I can imagine something similar when it comes to many other deities of Fury. An individual dies in some horrible way, but is CURSED - they're brought back as undead and given power to serve the deity.
These individuals would be INSANELY rare. There may only be one of them - the PC or NPC in question. They would be an outcast among the druids who serve the deity, and a abomination worthy of destruction by anyone outside that faith. They would have no allies among the other druids, and even the animals themselves would reject them for their unlife. Yet, their power - particularly their power in their deities chosen domain (such as Umberlee and the sea), would be very strong - perhaps even growing to legendary prowess.
This is how I'd create the exception to the rule. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 18 Jul 2011 13:16:48 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 07:50:53
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I suggest using Blighter. It can be used with undead, since the requirement is ex-druid. It does make sense with undead. Perhaps a dead druid who was returned from death, twisted to the mockery of what he was in life.
Oh, and I apologize if you ask about specifically druid. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 11:08:38
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Mostly, the nature dieties would abhor any undead, for there being upsets the balance. I could see specific instances where the balance of the environment is already unhinged and a nature diety would opt for letting a druid (temporarily) become undead. Especially if it allows the mummy/vampire/ghost druid to reach places he wasn't previously able to. I think the druid in question would be warned by the diety (lets say Mielikki) that he/she'd be making a sacrifice, as a god like Silvanus would have to remove you forcefully if they caught wind of your excistance.
That said, I think Malar would even favor his subjects that become vampires, as he doesn't seem to be that concerned for 'the balance' of things; he'd approve of the bloodlust that his vampire worshippers would show and the constant hunt they have to undergo just for sustenance. This hunt-tax would empower the diety of the hunt directly even if they didn't worship him because of Malars chosen portfolio.
Ghoul druids are problematic in that they typically lack the self control of other intelligent undead. But in an area where there is too much disease ridden carrion, a ghoul druid could make himself very useful by becoming a cleansing factor in the ecosystem: he'd take care of dead animals and their rotten meat personally. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2011 : 20:57:55
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Talona strikes me as the perfect deity for a ghoul druid. She's on the Nature Deity list, so she can have druids. She's the goddess of disease, and not only are rotting unburied bodies a great incubator of disease, ghouls in 3.x/PF specifically spread the disease Ghoul Fever. She's the goddess of poison, and ghouls' paralytic touch resembles a poison in effect. Her clerics commanded undead instead of turning them in Faiths & Avatars. And she was associated with Myrkul through her service to Bhaal.
However, if you want a nature deity that has a more explicit connection to undead, Umberlee is on the F&P Nature Deity list, and in F&A, "Umberlee also acts through . . . all types of aquatic undead including (inland) undead lake monsters." |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2011 : 08:36:28
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Well, I suggested blighter, cause he does not really need deity, since he sucks out life of nature around him. And controls dead animals.
But if you need someone associated with deities, try talonian blightlord. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2011 : 20:33:49
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Are we all seeing "nature deity" the same way? People opposed to the idea mention Silvanus, etc. not having undead druids. But aren't Talos, Umberlee, Malar, Talona, and Auril nature deities as well.
Then in the Eldreth Veluuthra isn't there a evil druid/hierophant lich of Auril named Lossarwyn? He was a druid but wanted to create a disease that would kill humans (druid of talona?), and the like. Nature isn't necessarily balanced or good. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2011 : 07:09:10
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| He was already mentioned. Rare specific individual. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Nature deities who tolerate undead druids?
