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Sturma
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  02:25:11  Show Profile Send Sturma a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If only she'd had access to a good dating app, so much trouble could have been avoided...


She did. Called the Necronomicon.

As far as I can tell, the dating pool there is slightly better than Tinder, about level with OK Cupid.

Still a better love story than Twilight.



The Innsmouth cultists all met each other through Plenty of Fish.


In Ferro Veritas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  03:03:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sturma

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The Necronomicon of Lovecraft is less "Big Book of Necromancy" and more "Big Book of Icky Stuff". Additionally, the summoning of ol' Yoggy would be under Conjuration, not necromancy.



We know that it also contains rituals for animating/raising the dead since it was used along with other texts to raise the necromancer Joseph Curwen from his ashes in "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward". The Necronomicon is several hundred pages in length so it's hard to say how much of that consists of spells vs. lore about "icky stuff", but anyone who studies and learns from it can be presumed to possess such knowledge, as the other stories I referred to indicate.



Possessing knowledge and using it are two separate things. I possess the knowledge to remotely wipe my boss's cell phone and cut off cellular service to it. He's still my boss, though, which shows I've never made use of that knowledge.

So having possession of a book that has necromantic spells in it does not make one a necromancer.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  03:04:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sturma

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If only she'd had access to a good dating app, so much trouble could have been avoided...


She did. Called the Necronomicon.

As far as I can tell, the dating pool there is slightly better than Tinder, about level with OK Cupid.

Still a better love story than Twilight.



The Innsmouth cultists all met each other through Plenty of Fish.





To both Sturma and Icelander:

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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  14:37:07  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Possessing knowledge and using it are two separate things. I possess the knowledge to remotely wipe my boss's cell phone and cut off cellular service to it. He's still my boss, though, which shows I've never made use of that knowledge.

So having possession of a book that has necromantic spells in it does not make one a necromancer.




That is just a lack of will. You choose to have a Boss, You choose not to telnet hop into and redirect or remove his calls, you choose not to frame the other guy and the 'boss' in a conspiracy, real or not, and take over. You're just a lazy Necromancer or maybe your a non specialised Necromancer, is a generalist Mage who uses Necromatic magic a Necromancer or just a Mage?

Thay Red
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  15:42:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Possessing knowledge and using it are two separate things. I possess the knowledge to remotely wipe my boss's cell phone and cut off cellular service to it. He's still my boss, though, which shows I've never made use of that knowledge.

So having possession of a book that has necromantic spells in it does not make one a necromancer.




That is just a lack of will. You choose to have a Boss, You choose not to telnet hop into and redirect or remove his calls, you choose not to frame the other guy and the 'boss' in a conspiracy, real or not, and take over. You're just a lazy Necromancer or maybe your a non specialised Necromancer, is a generalist Mage who uses Necromatic magic a Necromancer or just a Mage?



Okay, that's just painful to read.

A generalist mage is a generalist mage by definition; casting a particular type of a spell doesn't suddenly make them a specialist in that type of magic. If that was the case, a mage would move thru multiple specializations just in a single encounter. Logic would dictate that this is not the case.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  16:04:13  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While Thraskir Skimper was perhaps less clear than he could have been, he does have a point.

'Necromancer' as a concept has existed a long time before there was any such thing as a specialist wizard or D&D. The original post specifically mentions characters that exist outside of D&D rules. This means that the relevant meaning of 'necromancer' is what the word means in English, not D&D-rules.

A necromancer is someone who engages in necromancy, i.e. originally the practice of communicating with the dead, but with later usage and more broadly, witchcraft, sorcery or 'black magic'.

A fictional character may be meaningfully described as a 'necromancer' despite not possessing the 'Necromancer' class in D&D, just as a fictional character may be described as an 'assassin' or 'thief' without possessing a single level in these D&D classes (or indeed without stats existing in D&D terms at all). To engage in a little reductio ad absurdium, a fictional character can also be a 'murderer' without taking a D&D PrC called a 'Murderer'.

To insist that a dark magician who has studied the Necronomicon cannot be called 'a necromancer' is to ignore the common usage of the word.

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Edited by - Icelander on 20 Aug 2018 17:15:44
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  18:21:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

To insist that a dark magician who has studied the Necronomicon cannot be called 'a necromancer' is to ignore the common usage of the word.



And to insist that study and active usage of something are the same is to ignore the common usage of the word "study". You can study a work without making use of its contents, and we don't know that Lavinia did anything with her incomplete copy aside from arranging a one-night stand with Yogs. We don't even know that she did that particular summoning alone. It's possible, even likely, that her dad was involved in the summons.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Aug 2018 18:36:01
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2018 :  18:38:16  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

To insist that a dark magician who has studied the Necronomicon cannot be called 'a necromancer' is to ignore the common usage of the word.



And to insist that study and active usage of something are the same is to ignore the common usage of the word "study". You can study a work without making use of its contents, and we don't know that Lavinia did anything with her incomplete copy aside from arranging a one-night stand with Yogs.


Summoning Yog-Sothoth for the purposes of submitting to his inhuman carnal embraces is pretty much archetypical 'witchcraft' and 'black magic'.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
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Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  00:12:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

To insist that a dark magician who has studied the Necronomicon cannot be called 'a necromancer' is to ignore the common usage of the word.



And to insist that study and active usage of something are the same is to ignore the common usage of the word "study". You can study a work without making use of its contents, and we don't know that Lavinia did anything with her incomplete copy aside from arranging a one-night stand with Yogs.


Summoning Yog-Sothoth for the purposes of submitting to his inhuman carnal embraces is pretty much archetypical 'witchcraft' and 'black magic'.



Yes, but that's not necromancy, unless you ignore the "necro" part and focus on the "mancy" -- and most definitions of necromancy involve death. I found one definition of necromancy that referred to black magic, and the rest all mentioned death. I should think that's what the original poster was interested in, because he didn't ask about evil female casters -- that was another discussion. The OP asked about necromancers, which has a very specific meaning in D&D.

And regardless of how you define necromancy, we don't know that Lavinia ever cast any other spells at all, or that she was the sole caster for this particular summoning.

I am not willing to call someone a necromancer when the only spell we know that they had a part of isn't death magic, and we don't know how large their part of the casting was. It takes more than one spell to categorize a spellcaster.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Aug 2018 00:12:57
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  01:42:52  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If we are only talking about Specialist Necromancers Thay is one of the few places that has specifically such magic users.

But a Generalist Mage that raises an undead army to attack a keep would be a good necromancer as would the Cleric of Velsharoon or the Conjuration specialist that finds that dire bear are not cutting it but that 35 Zombies would be better. Suddenly the Conjuration specialist is by actions a necromancer, especially if these zombies and many other become the mainstay that carries out raids on the merchant carvans in the area. To the merchants they are being attacked by a necromancer, reguardless if the Mage is a generalist or a Conjurer.

Thay Red
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  02:40:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

If we are only talking about Specialist Necromancers Thay is one of the few places that has specifically such magic users.


No, Thay may have the largest concentration of necromancers, but they are by no means limited to Thay. Necromancers are all over the Realms.

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  04:04:45  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

To insist that a dark magician who has studied the Necronomicon cannot be called 'a necromancer' is to ignore the common usage of the word.



And to insist that study and active usage of something are the same is to ignore the common usage of the word "study". You can study a work without making use of its contents, and we don't know that Lavinia did anything with her incomplete copy aside from arranging a one-night stand with Yogs.


Summoning Yog-Sothoth for the purposes of submitting to his inhuman carnal embraces is pretty much archetypical 'witchcraft' and 'black magic'.



Yes, and in D&D, this would be textbook Conjuration. It's exactly what Iggwilv did.

Given that this is a D&D forum discussing a D&D campaign setting, it seems reasonable to assume that any post about necromancers refers to necromancy in the context of D&D, not the catch-all dictionary definition of necromancy. Even in most non D&D fantasy settings (that I'm aware of), necromancy is explicitly magic involving life, death, the dead and the afterlife.

Even the Cthulhu mythos's necromancers are explicitly called out as such. Malygris comes to mind, given that he summons the shade of a past lover (and his demonic viper familiar gently chides him for it), and he summons all his rivals after his death to his tower, where his spirit possesses his corpse to drop what's essentially a slow-acting horrid wilting on all of them.

There's also this bit in The Case of Charles Dexter Ward:

"...a Philosopher may, without any criminal Necromancy, call up the Shape of any dead Ancestour from the Dust whereinto his Bodie has been incinerated."


Edited by - LordofBones on 21 Aug 2018 04:05:29
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  04:27:24  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that since you are all in a FR specific forum, you can check you attachments to other sources at the door. In the realms, a Necromancer is a magic-user specializing in the school of Necromancy. Its pretty simple. Could not be easier in my mind.

I think by mentioning the Arch-Geomancer that I may have lead the discussion off the topic and on this rambling path. I did so for specific reasons.

First, because the Al Qadim campaign setting takes place on Zakhara, a continent of Toril - the world of the Forgotten Realms. As such I consider its content a subset of the Forgotten Realms, like Maztica and Oriental Adventurs (set in Kara Tur).

Second, Tisan was a 20th level Ajami Wizard. As described in the Arabian Adventures rulebook, ajami wizards are not a specific type of wizard, but rather any wizard who is foreign to Zakhara. This is the exact description:

These wizards are outlanders - strangers to the Land of Fate whose abilities lie outside the realm of native magics. More a label than an actual kit, this group
includes any spellcaster whose origin is beyond the borders of Zakhara. Alien wizards may be “standard” mages and specialists straight from the Player’s
Handbook, as well as members of the various kits listed in The Complete Wizard#146;s Handbook.

This means that one possibility is that Tisan was in fact a specialist necromancer. That admittedly was a bit of a stretch, as she is more than likely a generalist mage. I think of her activities as necromantic because she was summoning the spirit of a eon's dead geomancer named Thalath. The method to do this was strange as it involved calling the spirit by using a gate spell.

Anyways, my apologies if I lead others to start thinking outside the Realms.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  04:53:04  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The original post starts off by mentioning four necromancers outside the Forgotten Realms (and D&D in general), before mentioning necromancers that exist in FR. The query is specifically about fantasy in general, including FR and therefore explicitly not meant to be confined to D&D sources or D&D rules.

Unless anyone thinks that Magic: The Gathering or Anita Blake exist in the Realms.

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Scots Dragon
Seeker

United Kingdom
86 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  08:27:41  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

The original post starts off by mentioning four necromancers outside the Forgotten Realms (and D&D in general), before mentioning necromancers that exist in FR. The query is specifically about fantasy in general, including FR and therefore explicitly not meant to be confined to D&D sources or D&D rules.

Unless anyone thinks that Magic: The Gathering or Anita Blake exist in the Realms.



They kind of are adding the former to the overall cosmology and D&D multiverse on a canonical level with the upcoming Ravnica book.
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  13:28:29  Show Profile Send Thraskir Skimper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can you name one city in the FR outside of Thay or External Red Wizard Territories that teaches Specialised Necromancy Magic?

There are also Pale Masters who are necromancers who can be linked to any general or other specialised Magic Users, even Sorcerers and Bards, Candle Keep Scholars etc...

Also a great number of Divine Magic necromancers.

Thay Red
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  14:32:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

Can you name one city in the FR outside of Thay or External Red Wizard Territories that teaches Specialised Necromancy Magic?

There are also Pale Masters who are necromancers who can be linked to any general or other specialised Magic Users, even Sorcerers and Bards, Candle Keep Scholars etc...

Also a great number of Divine Magic necromancers.



As a city or country, you won't find them, because most cultures don't have a city or country mage force, and if they do they won't confine them to a single specialization.

That being said, there's a few areas where necromancer teachers would be more common: the country of Halruaa, anywhere the Cult of the Dragon exists, anywhere a church of Velsharoon or Myrkul exists (and since Velsharoon had his Tower Terrible in Soorenar, I've always figured that as an area with a larger than normal congregation forming after 1368), in most dark elven communities, near the field of bones, the isle of Sahu down near Zakhara, in Calimshan, in the areas controlled by the Twisted Rune, Mulmaster, the bloodstone lands (which in the bloodstone lands, many necromancers practice "white necromancy"), the underdark city of Pholzubbalt and the Great Barrow, etc....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  19:33:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thraskir Skimper

Can you name one city in the FR outside of Thay or External Red Wizard Territories that teaches Specialised Necromancy Magic?




How is that relevant to this discussion? Who cares if there's a school for necromancers? Realms canon has shown that most wizards are not educated in any kind of formal setting -- it's either a master/apprentice arrangement, or they are self-taught, or a combination of the two.

Wizard schools (for any flavor of magic!) are rare, but there is still an archmage lurking under every rock in the setting. This has nothing to do with their location.

One could even argue that the non-Thayan wizards are better, since they weren't able to benefit from a formal education and still managed to excel!

But again, please stop with the "Thay is so cool!" thing in every other post. You can express your appreciation for something without beating everyone over the head with it.

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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2420 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  20:00:26  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But again, please stop with the "Thay is so cool!" thing in every other post. You can express your appreciation for something without beating everyone over the head with it.



Indeed :)

Not for nothing, but I'd argue ever since the Undead series, Thay is not even worth the effort of considering. It is not "cool!" Its basically just a poor-man's Ravenloft with a jumped-up lich running things, rather than the Dark Powers and the Dark Lords (any of which were infinitely more interesting than Tam).

As for power, the entire nation of Thay was held at bay by the Simbul to the west and the Wychlaran to the north that they have dreamed of conquering for centuries - so while they might not be weak, they are pretty much the chumps of the region.

Best thing that could happen to Thay is a reboot - kill off Tam and his weak little followers and restore Ed's original setup there. Maybe this happened in 5th ed but since no one mentioned it I assume they have not touched on the subject.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  20:24:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I've commented more than once, I think a drawn-out civil war with Tam and his loyalists in Thay, and those opposing him taking over Mulmaster, would have had orders of magnitude more role-playing and story potential than the direction WotC took. Not only would you have had the natural fun of a civil war, plus the fun of wizard versus wizard, but you'd've also had every power group in the Realms getting involved in some way, either to get their own advantage or knock both sides down.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 21 Aug 2018 :  22:11:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But again, please stop with the "Thay is so cool!" thing in every other post. You can express your appreciation for something without beating everyone over the head with it.



Indeed :)

Not for nothing, but I'd argue ever since the Undead series, Thay is not even worth the effort of considering. It is not "cool!" Its basically just a poor-man's Ravenloft with a jumped-up lich running things, rather than the Dark Powers and the Dark Lords (any of which were infinitely more interesting than Tam).

As for power, the entire nation of Thay was held at bay by the Simbul to the west and the Wychlaran to the north that they have dreamed of conquering for centuries - so while they might not be weak, they are pretty much the chumps of the region.

Best thing that could happen to Thay is a reboot - kill off Tam and his weak little followers and restore Ed's original setup there. Maybe this happened in 5th ed but since no one mentioned it I assume they have not touched on the subject.



As much as I love the red wizards, I gotta agree... ever since the spellplague, the country has sucked. Its why at some point I decided that A) WotC was dead set on making it into what it is and B) perhaps the natural progression would be to bring back what I liked about the red wizards in another fashion. After all, its not the physical location at all that was the draw for me.

Also, I agree, the best thing that they could do would be to kick Tam out of the country and reassert some kind of replacement Zulkirate... Sending him and whatever loyal followers someone wants to setup elsewhere. Along those lines, they could "kick him out", but have it be that he essentially set his sights on a new area of Toril (maybe not even on this continent... he could go to Anchorome.. Osse... Katashaka, etc....) to try and perform his previous experiment with that took a century to build.

Of course, said experiment may just be Mystra's means of draining the power from some other portion of the world with a powerful artifact in order to heal herself.... and causing a great deal of necrotic energy to infuse the area... hmmm, what happened with the radiance of Glantri for those that have looked into such... see a commonality?

Meanwhile, since he will have effectively reneged on his deal with Bane by losing control of Thay, he might have to worry about retribution...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2018 :  05:12:46  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the best thing for Thay would have been for Szass to win politically and unite Thay (a living Thay, not Generic Undead Civilization #2786), and then resign to continue his studies. It would have been nice to see patriotic Szass, who for all his evil and undeath, just wanted to see his homeland united under one banner.

It also provides roleplaying opportunities, with other factions interested in keeping Thay fractured or united.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2018 :  14:26:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, in the above I state that I'd love to see Tam run out and a new Zulkirate setup. I've obviously also often talked about setting up my United Tharchs of Toril idea. One thing I would like to stress here is that I wouldn't think it would be necessarily a good idea to unite the two groups IF Tam were pushed out. I would combine my United Tharchs with the remains of the rebel Zulkirate, but those who remained in Thay.... I see it as a good idea that they decide that they should keep themselves separate. Similarly, we see in the Adventurer's League or whatever its called now, that they are running adventures that revolve around Mulmaster and a Zulkir moving up there from Thay. It might make for a very interesting idea in my book to have multiple "sets" of "red wizards", with the various groups loyal to certain core ideas but not to each other. These groups could be physically disparate as far as location, and working against each other. Thus, we end up developing a slightly different type of infighting from what Thay was previously known for (i.e. they may be somewhat unified within their own areas). In the end, one group may be focused on Mulan purity similar to the Scarlet Brotherhood, meanwhile other groups may have given up on racial purity and instead be focused on Imperialism. Some of these groups may not see slavery as wrong, but maybe they've developed the idea that HUMAN slavery is wrong. In the end, one of the things I was thinking with my United Tharchs idea was that the various Tharchs have their own goals with physical distance being a serious factor in the differences in societal view... but this idea where the Thay that was left behind doesn't even TRUST the group returned from Abeir makes for even more fractious play. It ends up allowing you to have red wizards all over the place, without there having to be some unbelievable overarching guiding force. Of course, it also goes against the concept of play that WotC has been developing with factions, because there would be no true single "red wizard" faction any longer, and the concept of a red wizard would simply become something of "wizards who have followed certain traditions in their training".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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