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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  07:34:25  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Complete Book of Necromancers' example NPCs all seemed to be from the Forgotten Realms world if I recall correctly, too, although the book wasn't a Forgotten Realms product. Several of them are female. Ellandra (13th level), Kazarebet (20th level), and Vermissa (24th level priestess) are all described in the allies section. If we are counting divine spellcasters then like people have already mentioned all of Kiaransalee's priestesses would be necromancers like Irae T'Sarran (City of the Spider Queen) and Chaulga Feth (web enhancement, it doesn't say how powerful she is though) In a 3rd edition campaign book the picture for Divine Disciple is a worshiper of Velsharoon, so presumably she is a powerful necromancer.

Zola Sethrakt The Zulkir of Necromancy, as you mentioned, who allied with the Zulkirs against Szass Tam in the Haunted Lands trilogy was female, as well. Although she was far weaker than Nevron and the other Zulkirs it still seems as though she would have to be fairly powerful to be counted as even a weak Zulkir. She's have to be able to beat out all the other Necromancers, regardless of how few they were, that didn't side with Szass. She was still, after all, useful to them all until he decided to kill her!

24th level seems very high to me! It seems as a 24th level character would be a one in a half million sort of person from source material. How many level 30+ characters are there at all? I would use the word powerful to describe any character level 10+.

I do agree that women are portrayed in stereotypically female roles for the most part in the realms, even though it seems mostly actively gender equal. In Thay the heads of all the schools you mentioned as being stereotypically female types of magic were female (Yaphyll, Mythrell'laa (sp?) and Lallara.
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Brimstone
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USA
3030 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  10:06:09  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Doesn't ring a bell. Where did she appear? Movie? Novel? Game? Comics?


Greyhawk. Grazz't's consort. An original member of the Circle of Eight IIRC. The creator of the Tasha line of spells(Probably an Enchanter then). She had a write up in one of the final Dungeon(print version) mags The Savage Tide AP. 30th level. The final print Dragon explained who she was. Ain't that right Shemmy?

I will look for it when I get home this morning...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 06 Jun 2011 10:08:56
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  10:38:16  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Doesn't ring a bell. Where did she appear? Movie? Novel? Game? Comics?



Most recently (as far as I know, I'm not very updated in regards to post 4E-shift DnD), the penultimate module of Savage Tide - Enemies of my Enemy by Wolfgang Baur, in Dungeon Magazine #149. In there, she is a female human wizard 26/archmage 4.

And here's what she looks like according to James Ryman

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3197 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  18:24:24  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

So the most powerful of them was just 24th level, while their male counterparts were/are 30th+? Hmm, seems to imply something.



-That more female necromancer NPCs of Epic Level haven't been revealed to us?

-And, again, there's Kiaransalee. Don't get much more powerful (and evil) than that.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6698 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  21:09:58  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It occurs to me that many liches are/were necromancers - it's a natural progression and attractive path for necros. Yet, we of course call them liches instead of calling them necros or wizards (Szass Tam being the only exception I know of). So it seems likely that many of the female liches were necromancers ... alas, I can recall only a few female liches.

I'm guessing that evil spellcasting females in D&D are typically portrayed as dark priestesses of one sort or another. Even the goddesses Loviatar, Talona, Shar, and Bashaba are partly designed around sex appeal.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Jun 2011 21:13:54
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31630 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  21:23:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

I'm guessing that evil spellcasting females in D&D are typically portrayed as dark priestesses of one sort or another. Even the goddesses Loviatar, Talona, Shar, and Bashaba are partly designed around sex appeal.



Females in fantasy, in general, are designed around sex appeal. They don't need to be in D&D or a goddess. And to this I react:

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to look at attractive females, particularly if they're not wearing a lot. But sometimes, in fantasy and sci-fi, it just gets ridiculous.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jun 2011 21:27:23
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  02:32:27  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Arik

I'm guessing that evil spellcasting females in D&D are typically portrayed as dark priestesses of one sort or another. Even the goddesses Loviatar, Talona, Shar, and Bashaba are partly designed around sex appeal.



Females in fantasy, in general, are designed around sex appeal. They don't need to be in D&D or a goddess. And to this I react:

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to look at attractive females, particularly if they're not wearing a lot. But sometimes, in fantasy and sci-fi, it just gets ridiculous.

I'm very much inclined to agree. And a perfect example is the "pin-up" of the Black Widow in an old BATTLETECH supplement. It just doesn't "work."

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6698 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  03:33:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha, yeah. Besides the Bounty Hunter was better anyhow.

Perfect examples are all over D&D, lol almost every novel cover.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  03:58:39  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MrHedgehog,

Indeed, 24th level is high. But compared to the levels of their male counterparts (Sammaster, Szass Tam, Semmemon, Larloch...) it almost amounts to nothing.

Thay has always been gender-equal. That's one of the things I like about their society. Though the original Zulkirs were all males (from the very first Zulirate, which, if I remember it right, was never published, but Ed was so kind as to share it with us), when the females rose to power, they rose to power (period). Their foes or rivals were there to oppose them not because of their gender, but simply because they too wanted to rise in station and power. Of course, that the most powerful of them happens to be a male (Szass Tam, and the one before him who vanished without trace and whose name I can't recall atm) might be seen as another stereotyping.

-------


Brimstone and Kajehase,

Thanks! She looks quite interesting. Great art and a really beautiful woman. I'll try to find time to research more about her. (Did I mention I love necromancers? My books have a considerable number of them.)

-------


LK,

I wouldn't count Kiaransalee, in the same way I don't count Mystra when discussing about the most powerful spellcasters on Toril.


-------


Arik,

Not surprising. The path to lichdom requires a considerable knowledge and skills on necromantic magic. When they become liches, it's only natural that they continue their study on necromancy. That doesn't mean though that for female necromancers to be quite formidable they have to be liches. But, whether we like it or not, lichdom rather appears to be the pinnacle of necromancy.

------

Wooly and Sage,

I think that depends on what sub-category of Fantasy we're talking about. Remember, Fantasy is a huge umbrella encompassing a plethora of subgenres. In Urban Fantasy, seeing those nearly naked females are quite normal. Unless modern civilizations adopt a fashion that involves dressing like mummies, we won't see the end of them...

Every beginning has an end.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3197 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  17:35:18  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to look at attractive females, particularly if they're not wearing a lot. But sometimes, in fantasy and sci-fi, it just gets ridiculous.



-I just don't get it, nerds oogling over pictures of Eilistraee, or Lolthite Drow wearing very little. Not only are they not even Humans, but they're cartoons...

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

LK,

I wouldn't count Kiaransalee, in the same way I don't count Mystra when discussing about the most powerful spellcasters on Toril.



-Kiaransalee was once a mortal Necromancer, however.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Jun 2011 17:35:58
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6698 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  19:34:40  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't get it either, cartoon women don't interest me at all. Then again, some of those cosplay girls who mimic them are awfully cute.

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2011 :  02:10:40  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Kiaransalee was once a mortal Necromancer, however.

There's an elaboration of the mortal Kiaransalee written by Rip Van Wormer over on planewalker.com. It's not entirely canon, but it does provide some rather thought-provoking stuff on the nature of necromancy.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2011 :  05:35:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

LK,

So was Mystra (Midnight), and Cyric, Kelemvor, Velsharoon, and many others...So, no, I still wouldn't count her. Though I must say she was a quite formidable necromancer during her mortal existence.

Every beginning has an end.
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Lord Karsus
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USA
3197 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2011 :  05:51:49  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Plunging all of Threnody (the planet, not the divine realm) into undeath to draw power from is pretty badass.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Jun 2011 05:52:16
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2011 :  13:37:33  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Weren't there female necromancers of note in Halruaa? I remember only two renowned necromancers from the C&K trilogy---Akhlaur and the Archmage of the School of Necromancy.

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Kuje
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USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2011 :  18:03:56  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There might be but if so, none of them were stated. I only pulled out the ones that were given stats.


quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Weren't there female necromancers of note in Halruaa? I remember only two renowned necromancers from the C&K trilogy---Akhlaur and the Archmage of the School of Necromancy.


For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2011 :  03:42:25  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

It would have been interesting if they were explicitly stated, though. But thanks, Kuje, for those female necromancers you noted. You just saved this (lackadaisical) scribe from doggedly perusing those old tomes.

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Kuje
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7915 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2011 :  17:52:15  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No problem. :) I made my NPC lists for myself for exactly that reason. Plus, there were a lot of NPC's that I didn't remember even existing.

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


It would have been interesting if they were explicitly stated, though. But thanks, Kuje, for those female necromancers you noted. You just saved this (lackadaisical) scribe from doggedly perusing those old tomes.


For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2011 :  19:53:50  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Does Kiaransalee have Chosen? If yes, then they must be a bunch of quite formidable necromancers.

Every beginning has an end.
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sleyvas
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USA
7582 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2011 :  16:13:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Does Kiaransalee have Chosen? If yes, then they must be a bunch of quite formidable necromancers.



I don't know about Chosen, but I know she likes her servants in the module... was it City of the Spider Queen? The one where Maerimydra's getting taken over by followers of Kiaransalee. That was a great module.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Dennis
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Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  01:44:40  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

If Kiaransalee really has Chosen, shouldn't they be called Dread Mages?

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sleyvas
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7582 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2012 :  20:38:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


If Kiaransalee really has Chosen, shouldn't they be called Dread Mages?



If I had to pick a name... It'd be "Vengeful Witch"... though I imagine some might change out the W for a B

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Marc
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2012 :  12:36:37  Show Profile Send Marc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pale Sybil from Final Gate is a necromancer - if I remember correctly.

.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2012 :  00:12:28  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Can anyone cite more examples of female necromancers in other settings? Not the ones in a plethora of Urban Fantasy, though.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7582 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2012 :  02:06:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Can anyone cite more examples of female necromancers in other settings? Not the ones in a plethora of Urban Fantasy, though.



Ischade the necromancer in Thieve's World, though she's not the classic necromancer with hordes of undead at their command.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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