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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 05:49:17
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It's been two years now since the cancellation of The Curse of the Chain Veil, a Magic: The Gathering novel featuring the planeswalker and mercurial necromancer, Liliana Vess. I'm very interested in following her exploits as she's not a typical necromancer, and her development as a character in Agents of Artifice left me asking for more. It is she that got me into thinking why are there so few female necromancers of note in the Realms (and in Fantasy in general)?
Outside FR, there is Anita Blake in Laurell Hamilton's Anita Blake series; Chloe Saunders in the Darkest Powers Saga by Kelley Armstrong; and Isyllt Iskaldur, necromancer and spy in Amanda Downum's Necromancer Chronicles, all claiming fame by their own rights. (I haven't yet read the said series, but they're in the top 20 of my To-Read).
In the Realms, I guess we can list Frodyne, Szass Tam's apprentice who got a fair amount of screen time in Red Ambition. And there is Anilya, the durthan in The Shield of Weeping Ghosts. I am not sure if we should include Zola Sethrakt, though. She was too weak that Nevron felt insulted by her very presence in their Council, prompting him to conjure a demon (not so powerful at that) which killed her during one of their Convocations.
Necromancry, while can be utilized as a neutral form of magic, is most often associated with evil practices. And it seems like in FR, the females (save of course the drow priestesses) rarely don the role of cold-hearted, wicked spell-hurlers. They are rather classified to the less aggressive, more subtle disciplines (though not by any means less important nor less powerful), like Divination, Illusion, and Abjuration.
Do you know other female necromancers of note? And why do you think they number close to nothing?
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Jun 2011 05:55:33
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 06:20:32
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Was evil Cassandra-creator-of-Alias a necromancer or just an evil mage?
I've played a number of modules which feature female necromancer opponents, including some quite accomplished and dangerous characters you'd think would've been featured in other Realms products.
I think I agree with you in that it all sort of falls under the usual D&D female stereotypes. My players routinely expect that any attractive/hawt female I describe is invariably some kind of monster, trap, illusion, or pet NPC ... the more "screen time" and depth the female character gets the more assured they are that she's some kind of threat. It's just one of those "Gygaxisms" which have become a subconscious part of the genre, I suspect. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 06:29:55
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Maybe you mean Cassana. I don't think there is any mention as to her preferred or chosen School of Magic. But then again, I haven't read the trilogy, and my resources are rather limited. I suppose Wooly and Sage can answer that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Jun 2011 06:31:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 07:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Maybe you mean Cassana. I don't think there is any mention as to her preferred or chosen School of Magic. But then again, I haven't read the trilogy, and my resources are rather limited. I suppose Wooly and Sage can answer that.
I don't have the book handy with me at the moment, but I do vaguely recall that Cassana's 2e stats in the Villains' Lorebook don't reference any particular proclivity for necromancy.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 08:32:08
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I checked her entry on Villains' Lorebook, and there is no citation there referring to Necromancy as her preferred School. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 09:00:43
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| What about Shadowsil? Or was she the typical mage? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 09:28:55
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Perhaps, given that most of the wizards who were affiliated with the Cult of the Dragon were necromancers. But in VL, there's no mention of her School. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 11:33:31
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| Morasha of Netheril, Zallanora Argentress |
z455t |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 13:02:29
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| Ancient Netheril had "necromantic" magic? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 17:03:37
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Aye, Zallanora should be in the list as well. But it appears like her recent renown is mostly due to the efforts of Shoon, who took over her body. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 17:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
And it seems like in FR, the females (save of course the drow priestesses) rarely don the role of cold-hearted, wicked spell-hurlers. They are rather classified to the less aggressive, more subtle disciplines (though not by any means less important nor less powerful), like Divination, Illusion, and Abjuration.
-I disagree with this part. While sourcebook/adventure/novel/video game characters that we are exposed to might be, there is nothing anywhere that lends credence to the idea that, in Realmspace, women are more...docile, less 'evil' than men. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 18:15:11
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Going through my 2e file, I found a few that haven't been mentioned yet.
Shialla, 5th Female Human, LE, Necromancer, Daughter to Harther Ulmnar the leader of the Patient of Calimport, Empires of the Shining Sea
Varytha Gheldieg, 9th Female Human, CE, Necromancer, Lady of the Gheldieg family of Amn. She collects the bodies of paupers, Lands of Intrigue: Book 2
Ezira Gloomdelve, 14th Female Human Vampire, CE, Necromancer, Majordomo and advisor to Dalagaor the Cold. She also has 2 other male human vampires that are subservant to her, Skullport
Xundra Sharmhand, 16th Female Human, NE, Necromancer, Mage that lives in Urmlaspyr in Sembia, FR Adventures
Thabbys, 16th Female Human, LE, Necromancer, Serves Gauntather, Halls of the High King
Tasherra, 19th Female Huma, Necromancer, Twin sister to Terrance Trent, The City of Ravens Bluff
Phthta Thak, 24th Female Human, CE, Necromancer, Can be found at the Battle of the Bones, Elminster's Ecologies: Appendix 1
And in my 3e list there's:
Delphaeryn Leiyraghon of Melvaunt, 11th Wizard/1st Wearer of Purple Female Vaasan Human, LE, Necromancer, One of the leaders of the Wyrmsmoke cell of the Cult of the Dragon, Dragons of Faerun
Ellandra Tolbert, Lady, 14th Wizard Female Illuskan Human, TN, Necromancer, Financies the House of Pain in Waterdeep. Purchased Yolanda Shamat's release from slavery, City of Splendors: Waterdeep
Espera, 17th Wizard Female Earth Genasi, CE, Necromancer, Resides in the Boneyard, Underdark
Farkattle, Lady, 11th Wizard Female Hobgoblin, LE, Necromancer, Primary advisor to King Kardobbik of the Giantspire Mountains, Unapproachable East
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 18:18:35
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| Zallanora wasn't listed as a necromancer in 2e either, plus she was only "baby" wizard since she was only 3rd level. She has the same class and levels in 3e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jun 2011 18:22:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 19:33:15
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quote:
Lord Karsus
I disagree ... While sourcebook/adventure/novel/video game characters that we are exposed to might be, there is nothing anywhere that lends credence to the idea that, in Realmspace, women are more...docile, less 'evil' than men.
Hahaa
I suspect - just putting this out there, off the top of my head - that the father of the Realms, master Greenwood, has probably been exposed to women of somewhat similar disposition to those I know. Which is to say that "docile" and "less evil than men" are not precisely the terms I would choose to describe them.
No offense intended to our eternally lovely, informative, and mysteriously sexy Lady Herald, of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 20:30:18
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I can think of a female necromancer of note, one not mentioned by anyone else... Kiaransalee!  |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 21:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can think of a female necromancer of note, one not mentioned by anyone else... Kiaransalee!
-That is a pretty obvious one, duh. And then, of course, there's all her priestess' and crones. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 02:17:43
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Espera, 17th Wizard Female Earth Genasi, CE, Necromancer, Resides in the Boneyard, Underdark
Source, Kuje? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 03:46:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Espera, 17th Wizard Female Earth Genasi, CE, Necromancer, Resides in the Boneyard, Underdark
Source, Kuje?
What Sage said, the 3e Underdark book. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 16:34:09
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| Thanks guys. Sounds like an interesting character. For some reason makes me think of Luvia from Baldur's Gate II. I think I will run with it, of course, no idea what i'll do with her yet. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11693 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 16:39:07
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| Lesperenza the exotic dancer / necromancer.... but she's only infamous for her work at some of the more kinky bacherlor parties. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 23:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lesperenza the exotic dancer / necromancer.... but she's only infamous for her work at some of the more kinky bacherlor parties.
-You know, 'kinky' is an understatement.
And here I thought necromancy and lichdom were unpopular with the ladies because it's hard to be a stereotypical Vain Sorceress when you're sporting that skeletal look. To each their own.  |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 05:17:13
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Thanks, fellow scribes. Most of the aforementioned were unknown to me---thanks to my laziness, that even though I have nearly all those tomes/sources, I didn't bother perusing every page.
So the most powerful of them was just 24th level, while their male counterparts were/are 30th+? Hmm, seems to imply something. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 06 Jun 2011 05:22:54 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 05:38:46
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| It's not the Realms, but isn't Iggilwiv(sp?)(Tasha) a necromancer? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 05:51:10
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Doesn't ring a bell. Where did she appear? Movie? Novel? Game? Comics? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 07:34:25
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The Complete Book of Necromancers' example NPCs all seemed to be from the Forgotten Realms world if I recall correctly, too, although the book wasn't a Forgotten Realms product. Several of them are female. Ellandra (13th level), Kazarebet (20th level), and Vermissa (24th level priestess) are all described in the allies section. If we are counting divine spellcasters then like people have already mentioned all of Kiaransalee's priestesses would be necromancers like Irae T'Sarran (City of the Spider Queen) and Chaulga Feth (web enhancement, it doesn't say how powerful she is though) In a 3rd edition campaign book the picture for Divine Disciple is a worshiper of Velsharoon, so presumably she is a powerful necromancer.
Zola Sethrakt The Zulkir of Necromancy, as you mentioned, who allied with the Zulkirs against Szass Tam in the Haunted Lands trilogy was female, as well. Although she was far weaker than Nevron and the other Zulkirs it still seems as though she would have to be fairly powerful to be counted as even a weak Zulkir. She's have to be able to beat out all the other Necromancers, regardless of how few they were, that didn't side with Szass. She was still, after all, useful to them all until he decided to kill her!
24th level seems very high to me! It seems as a 24th level character would be a one in a half million sort of person from source material. How many level 30+ characters are there at all? I would use the word powerful to describe any character level 10+.
I do agree that women are portrayed in stereotypically female roles for the most part in the realms, even though it seems mostly actively gender equal. In Thay the heads of all the schools you mentioned as being stereotypically female types of magic were female (Yaphyll, Mythrell'laa (sp?) and Lallara. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 10:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Doesn't ring a bell. Where did she appear? Movie? Novel? Game? Comics?
Greyhawk. Grazz't's consort. An original member of the Circle of Eight IIRC. The creator of the Tasha line of spells(Probably an Enchanter then). She had a write up in one of the final Dungeon(print version) mags The Savage Tide AP. 30th level. The final print Dragon explained who she was. Ain't that right Shemmy?
I will look for it when I get home this morning... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 06 Jun 2011 10:08:56 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 10:38:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Doesn't ring a bell. Where did she appear? Movie? Novel? Game? Comics?
Most recently (as far as I know, I'm not very updated in regards to post 4E-shift DnD), the penultimate module of Savage Tide - Enemies of my Enemy by Wolfgang Baur, in Dungeon Magazine #149. In there, she is a female human wizard 26/archmage 4.
And here's what she looks like according to James Ryman |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 18:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So the most powerful of them was just 24th level, while their male counterparts were/are 30th+? Hmm, seems to imply something.
-That more female necromancer NPCs of Epic Level haven't been revealed to us?
-And, again, there's Kiaransalee. Don't get much more powerful (and evil) than that. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 21:09:58
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It occurs to me that many liches are/were necromancers - it's a natural progression and attractive path for necros. Yet, we of course call them liches instead of calling them necros or wizards (Szass Tam being the only exception I know of). So it seems likely that many of the female liches were necromancers ... alas, I can recall only a few female liches.
I'm guessing that evil spellcasting females in D&D are typically portrayed as dark priestesses of one sort or another. Even the goddesses Loviatar, Talona, Shar, and Bashaba are partly designed around sex appeal. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Jun 2011 21:13:54 |
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Female Necromancers of Note
