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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2011 :  21:27:56  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
so, as I've mentioned before, I have been looking into 2nd edition AD&D stuff lately. I want to know how it plays, how it works, what it's like, etcetera. I'm alsointerested in playing some AD&D 2nd Edition.

well, as I looked into it what I've found so far has intrigued me. I was particularly interested in the Character Creation/Advancement rules. I realy like the whole Proficiencies system, and I think that I could make some very interesting character models in this system, complete with background history and personality from the get-go!

anywho, as I was comparing this system to 3rd Edition ad 3.5 Edition D&D I came to a startling epiphany. 3rd Edition and 3.5 Edition were completely redesigned because they were designed specifically around the Character Creation/Advancement process!

in 2nd Edition, you can train as a Fighter for your entire career and still gain Spellcasting and othr Mage abilities simply by picking up the Proficiency. you'd spend twice the normal cost on all those proficiencies, but you would continue o advance in HP and Base Attack as a Fighter. alternatively, you could dual-class as a Fighter/Mage and give up some of your HP and Base Attack in order to learn Spellcasting at normal cost.

3rd Edition saw the possibilities of breaking this down even further, so that every little aspect of a Character's training was represented individually in detail. Characters can freely Multiclass (though there is a Multiclass XP penalty for unbalanced Multiclassing) by taking every Class Level sepperately. they customize their training and talents with Skill Points, Feats, and Class Features attained at higher levels of any given Class. it's essentially a bunch of tech-trees and components.

anywho, looking at it from this comparative angle, I can understand why fans of 2nd Edition are so against 3rd Edition; they probably feel like it is missing so much of it's filling just to try t fix a system that wasn't even broken. personally for me, D&D has always been the most about Character Creation. I love coming u with new interesting Characters, and I experiment with possibilities all the time. but because of my love for Settings and Stories I also want to try out 2nd Edition. they are realy two different games entirely, and each one satisfies different needs and tastes.

so, yeh. I just wanted to share this revelation with everyone. if anyone else has anything to add to this, opinions or comments, I'd be glad to hear'em! :D

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times

GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  04:44:44  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
3E and beyond really killed it for me. Too much number-crunching. I'll stick with the OS or Homebrew rules...
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  04:55:43  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
heh. the Numbers, ah? I guess I never noticed before, it just seems natural to me. there aren't as many numbers to crunch in 2nd?

anywho, what is it like playing 2nd Edition? can I see an example of Character Creation, Leveling and Dual-Classing on here, or would that be too complicated/long?

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  05:04:26  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Easier if you just look through a PHB. You can probably DL one from somewhere...
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  05:08:06  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
couple problems with that being that this is my mom's computer, it has limited space and I am out of blank CDs and such. ._.

I might be able to get it on my Flash Drive though. ^_^ I'll look it up sometime.

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  05:15:09  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The biggets difference to consider in character creation is one word- THAC0.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  05:15:59  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The biggest difference to consider in character creation is one word- THAC0.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  05:19:11  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
which is a concept I still don't totally understand? o_O; how does it work? what it is exactly? what does it stand for again, cause I used to know? does it cap out at -10 or -20?

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3166 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  05:25:19  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-(Chance) To Hit Armor Class 0.

-Other than that, not knowing 2e rules, I don't know much else about it, asides for the fact that plenty of people thought it was convoluted, and it has a bad "stigma" attached to it.

-Anyway, in my own games, I created feats that mimicked the basic Class Abilities of other classes, albeit in inferior forms (with the exception of magical things). So, a Fighter could take a feat that allowed him to do a 1d4 Sneak Attack, or a limited form of Barbarian Rage. Seems similar to the 2e multiclassing you mention.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2415 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  05:45:48  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm a huge 2e fan (as you might guess from my sig), and to me it's a much simpler system, though by no means perfectly simple.

However, I think you're a little confused about proficiencies. They don't deal with class abilities, but rather they're 2e's version of skills. They're less "real world based," in that it's hard and expensive to make your skill something increase, but the trade-off is that the are MUCH easier. You've got one number, it's based off of one attribute, and it never changes. Pick 'em, and you're done. Makes creating higher-level characters a whole lot faster.

2e did have a couple of stupid concepts (racial level caps, I'm looking at you), some neat ideas that didn't work so well in actual game play (weapon speeds), and a whole lot of other cool stuff that was optional. And that was the great thing, it was all labelled as optional right there in the book. That included stuff like encumbrance, spell components, heck, even running. You got to pick and choose how much detail and number crunching you wanted to deal with.

In your OP, what you're thinking of is 2e's dual-classing, which is separate from multi-classing, and neither of which is exactly the same as 3e's. People complained about them, though I prefer it somewhat to 3e's system, if only because they prevent monstrosities like the Barb 1/Fighter2/Sorc 1/Rog 4/XYZ builds that 3e is infamous for.

The short version of the two: multiclassing is like the gestalt option in 3e's Unearthed Arcana: you advance in two or three classes simultaneously, splitting earned XP between them equally and abiding by all of their restrictions. You'll always be lower level than your single-classed compatriots, but more versatile. It was open only to demihumans.

Dual-classing was only open to humans and was the equivalent of giving up on your current class and starting over in a new one. Yep, you go right back to level one, keeping nothing of your old class except HP. You then adventure as the new class until you attain a higher level in it than your old class, at which point you get all of the old class abilities back. So if you were a wizard 7 dualing to fighter, once you attained fighter 8 you got to cast spells again (as long as you weren't in armor). It was a little wacky, but could lead to some very interesting, and surprising, characters.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Dinnin
Seeker

Australia
53 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  06:13:11  Show Profile Send Dinnin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

The biggets difference to consider in character creation is one word- THAC0.



gotta say the best thing about that was THAC0, it was great. use to love playing 2nd edition

"Use yer heads! A barnyard goose tastes better 'an a wild one cause it don't use its muscles. The same oughta hold true for a giant's brains!"
Bruenor Battlehammer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31231 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  06:26:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

I can understand why fans of 2nd Edition are so against 3rd Edition; they probably feel like it is missing so much of it's filling just to try t fix a system that wasn't even broken.


I grew up in 2E, and I still tend to think of characters by 2E classes (as in, this character is a fighter, that one is a thief, etc). I love 2E. That said, I think 3E was an awesome development, and 3.5/Pathfinder the best versions of D&D we've yet seen.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe

USA
489 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  06:48:34  Show Profile  Visit Joran Nobleheart's Homepage Send Joran Nobleheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a really nice pdf of the 2E character sheet (original, as well as the revised version from the black covers) that I'd put up here for others to use, as well as ChieftainTwilight, but I don't know how to go about that, or if it's permitted. If it is or isn't, Wooly or Sage, please send me a PM to let me know. I'm a simple man, trying to help out a fellow gamer.

Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  07:18:12  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heck, I still have tons of 2e notes, npcs, characters, etc, stored away. I still miss playing 2e. :( Thac0 wasn't that hard, but people tend to find subtraction harder then addition, so in 3e everything was changed so it added upwards, not down.

And I still use my 2e character sheet I made in Word, almost 15 years ago. :) But I also updated it for 3e. At that time, I was still printing files on a dot matrix. Gods, I HATED that printer. Damn paper used to get jammed all the time cause the perforated tabs, where the holes were aligned to the grip on the sides of the printer, kept peeling off.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31691 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  08:34:19  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart

I have a really nice pdf of the 2E character sheet (original, as well as the revised version from the black covers) that I'd put up here for others to use, as well as ChieftainTwilight, but I don't know how to go about that, or if it's permitted. If it is or isn't, Wooly or Sage, please send me a PM to let me know. I'm a simple man, trying to help out a fellow gamer.

I'll send you a communiqué.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31691 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  08:36:29  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Heck, I still have tons of 2e notes, npcs, characters, etc, stored away. I still miss playing 2e.
That goes double for me, also. And it's all still material I try to find uses for in my post 2e campaigns.
quote:
And I still use my 2e character sheet I made in Word, almost 15 years ago. :) But I also updated it for 3e. At that time, I was still printing files on a dot matrix. Gods, I HATED that printer. Damn paper used to get jammed all the time cause the perforated tabs, where the holes were aligned to the grip on the sides of the printer, kept peeling off.
But that's the fun of it! I love my Commodore dot-matrix... I "published" some of my best Realms material on that archaic beast.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe

Australia
388 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  14:29:41  Show Profile Send Snowblood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Our current game started in 1989 and is still going.....its mainly 2E but it draws on weapon mastery from basic D&D, and uses the same "to hit" charts...very easy to use...much of what we do is roll playing and fights are quick and deadly...as they should be. Our PC's have travelled most of the FR globe...and across different millenia...from being there at the fall of Sharlarion...to participating in the raising of Myth Drannors mythal...now touring around the east trying to reunite Shou Lung and Tu-Lung....these days we use a lot of 3.5....but we adapt the classes such as arcane archers as multi-class kits. We've done away with race restrictions, but long lived races have to earn double XP's to advance beyond the racial limits. A fun game we play once a fortnight on average...there have been breaks...but when 4E came along we just retreated back 500 years....hehehehehehe

Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  14:47:18  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Holy crap a 22 year old campaign...

What level are ya guys? What are your characters? This I gotta know.

I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  15:59:00  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will always be partial to 3/3.x editions of the game. I believe they let you tweak your character a lot more than the previous versions. While I admit the crunch is far greater in those versions, I believe it to be well worth it.

Interesting find I did have when I saw the SW: Saga Edition version of the 3e toolset. I really liked how that version was, with pseudo talent points and skill levels. I find that to be the best, but don't like the further changes they did for 4th Ed.

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe

Australia
388 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  16:15:51  Show Profile Send Snowblood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ours is a multi-generational campaign.....elves from the first era are still around when the great, great, great grand children of our short lived PCs are wandering the realms. A few humans have managed to extend their lives through a variety of means...we tend to use character trees...ah la Dark Sun style....my highest level...now NPC is/was high mage 31/Psionicist 30/Specialty priest of Selune 19/ swordsman 14... so each player may well have 4-6 PC's active in a campaign but not all active at the same time.

Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
542 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  16:25:46  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood

my highest level...now NPC is/was high mage 31/Psionicist 30/Specialty priest of Selune 19/ swordsman 14...


So at which level did he replace Ao?
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  16:35:43  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

I'm a huge 2e fan (as you might guess from my sig), and to me it's a much simpler system, though by no means perfectly simple.

However, I think you're a little confused about proficiencies. They don't deal with class abilities, but rather they're 2e's version of skills. They're less "real world based," in that it's hard and expensive to make your skill something increase, but the trade-off is that the are MUCH easier. You've got one number, it's based off of one attribute, and it never changes. Pick 'em, and you're done. Makes creating higher-level characters a whole lot faster.

2e did have a couple of stupid concepts (racial level caps, I'm looking at you), some neat ideas that didn't work so well in actual game play (weapon speeds), and a whole lot of other cool stuff that was optional. And that was the great thing, it was all labelled as optional right there in the book. That included stuff like encumbrance, spell components, heck, even running. You got to pick and choose how much detail and number crunching you wanted to deal with.

In your OP, what you're thinking of is 2e's dual-classing, which is separate from multi-classing, and neither of which is exactly the same as 3e's. People complained about them, though I prefer it somewhat to 3e's system, if only because they prevent monstrosities like the Barb 1/Fighter2/Sorc 1/Rog 4/XYZ builds that 3e is infamous for.

The short version of the two: multiclassing is like the gestalt option in 3e's Unearthed Arcana: you advance in two or three classes simultaneously, splitting earned XP between them equally and abiding by all of their restrictions. You'll always be lower level than your single-classed compatriots, but more versatile. It was open only to demihumans.

Dual-classing was only open to humans and was the equivalent of giving up on your current class and starting over in a new one. Yep, you go right back to level one, keeping nothing of your old class except HP. You then adventure as the new class until you attain a higher level in it than your old class, at which point you get all of the old class abilities back. So if you were a wizard 7 dualing to fighter, once you attained fighter 8 you got to cast spells again (as long as you weren't in armor). It was a little wacky, but could lead to some very interesting, and surprising, characters.



huh... :( that's sounds a little off-putting. after all, what I love most about 3rd Edition is the half-dozen Class hybrids. my favourite thing to do is break the Class Terms, find a way to make it that you just can't realy lable this characterby any Class, each character has a unique path of training.

that said, one of my most convoluted characters yet is a Half-Elf Wizard 1/Fighter 6/ Rogue 3/Bladedancer 10/Daggerspell Mage 8. ^_^

@ Snowblood: I so gotta get in on that! XD

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker

USA
65 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  17:19:19  Show Profile  Send Thente Thunderspells an AOL message  Click to see Thente Thunderspells's MSN Messenger address  Send Thente Thunderspells a Yahoo! Message Send Thente Thunderspells a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I started in 2ed and I have a fondness for it and love to play it when given the chance. Still have all the old books and such, but I do love 3.5/Pathfinder, echoing WR here.

3.x is far more about character advancement I feel than the fluff of the world, and 4e is even beyond that. But it all depends on the group and their styles. If your group focuses on fluff & RP then it doesn't really matter what edition of the rules you use. If your group focuses more on character advancement and becoming "powerful" in the world at large, it is much easier to do the higher you increase the Edition #

That is how I see the editions anyway. I do miss me some THAC0 though!

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2415 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  18:46:58  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@CT: Well, in 2e, you would just make your guy a fighter/mage/thief and call it done. No tricky convoluted machinations needed beyond a couple of minimum ability scores. If you wanted to get more involved, you could slap a kit or two on top of it (kits were minor, or occasionally not-so-minor, varients to the established classes).

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  19:22:31  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought there was an XP penalty, even in 2E, along with racial restrictions of multi-classing v. dual-classing.

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker

USA
65 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2011 :  19:55:22  Show Profile  Send Thente Thunderspells an AOL message  Click to see Thente Thunderspells's MSN Messenger address  Send Thente Thunderspells a Yahoo! Message Send Thente Thunderspells a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Crennen FaerieBane

I thought there was an XP penalty, even in 2E, along with racial restrictions of multi-classing v. dual-classing.


No penalty, you just have to divide you XP evenly among your classes for Multiclass, so if you are fighter/mage and get 100xp, each class get 50xp.

Multiclass is only demihumans and you are restricted in which classes you can multiclass with/to based on race

Dual-class is human only and you are restricted as described above in that you only get both class abilities once you level past your old one.

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare

Edited by - Thente Thunderspells on 11 May 2011 19:55:43
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