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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2011 :  21:37:55  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage Send Dracons a Private Message
Minor question about gods and their creations.

The elven myth is that Grummsh and Corellon Larethian had an epic battle that resulted in the lost of Grummsh eye (Though Orcs claim he always had one eye) and that the spilled blood of Corellon formed the elves. Were Orcs already around, and thus predating Elves, or did Grummsh /create/ them after he saw the formation of elves?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2011 :  22:17:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons

Minor question about gods and their creations.

The elven myth is that Grummsh and Corellon Larethian had an epic battle that resulted in the lost of Grummsh eye (Though Orcs claim he always had one eye) and that the spilled blood of Corellon formed the elves. Were Orcs already around, and thus predating Elves, or did Grummsh /create/ them after he saw the formation of elves?



Personally, I see it as both. There were already elves and orcs in existence, and when the two deities battled, their blood formed *more* of their respective peoples.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2011 :  13:17:00  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dracons

Minor question about gods and their creations.

The elven myth is that Grummsh and Corellon Larethian had an epic battle that resulted in the lost of Grummsh eye (Though Orcs claim he always had one eye) and that the spilled blood of Corellon formed the elves. Were Orcs already around, and thus predating Elves, or did Grummsh /create/ them after he saw the formation of elves?



-Who knows? They're myths, and not necessarily true.

-From a personal standpoint, I like to think that the deities created their respective races (thus, Orcs came into being when Gruumsh's eye was cut off and his blood spilled, and Elves when Corellon Larethian cried, and not that those respective races (and others) existed previously, and it was their devotion to the abstract concepts of the cosmos that sprung their deities into being.

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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2011 :  03:52:00  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

Regardless of the fact that racial deities have been canonical for the realms I still don't personally like it. I'm not arguing the fact that there have been racial deities in the realms, it just isn't an idea that appeals to me.

In the real world people seem to often portray their religious figures as being of their own race. With the example of Sehanine, she would be a deity they worshiped in another world. Selune is the moon goddess of the realms and so she would answer prayers to those who prayed to Sehanine. Selune is a creator goddess of the world they now reside in, so it is her that it would make sense for them to worship upon migrating to the realms.





The problem with this line of thinking is that it assumes the immigrants will automatically choose to follow the "new" deity, or that their own deity is unable to follow them to the new world. Neither of these is the case. Since we know that Sehenine was being worshiped by the elves BEFORE they came to Toril, there is no reason for them to stop following her just because there is another deity of the local moon.

In general, racial deities have specific portfolios that are NOT covered by other pantheons' deities- a good example of this is Corellon himself- he is a god of magic, arts, war, poetry, crafts, and the elven race itself. No other deity covers all of these facets of elven life as well, in the same way he does. So in effect, they would have to worship at least half a dozen SEPARATE deities to encompass the same portfolios! (Silvanus, Mystra, Oghma, Denier, Tempus, Liira, and Milil, just off the top of my head.) Another example is Moradin- smithing, creation, protection, mining, metal-crafts, stonework, and dwarves in general. To encompass the same portfolios in the Faerunian pantheon, they would have to worship Gond, Helm, Tempus, Chantea, and Grumbar! It makes MORE sense to keep their own racial deities than to convert to a half-dozen or more new ones!

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2011 :  17:08:45  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In general, racial deities have specific portfolios that are NOT covered by other pantheons' deities- a good example of this is Corellon himself- he is a god of magic, arts, war, poetry, crafts, and the elven race itself. No other deity covers all of these facets of elven life as well, in the same way he does. So in effect, they would have to worship at least half a dozen SEPARATE deities to encompass the same portfolios! (Silvanus, Mystra, Oghma, Denier, Tempus, Liira, and Milil, just off the top of my head.) Another example is Moradin- smithing, creation, protection, mining, metal-crafts, stonework, and dwarves in general. To encompass the same portfolios in the Faerunian pantheon, they would have to worship Gond, Helm, Tempus, Chantea, and Grumbar! It makes MORE sense to keep their own racial deities than to convert to a half-dozen or more new ones!



-That's a good point, that I didn't even really think of. The portfolios of two deities who represent similar things are going to match exactly very rarely. Same thing with dogmas. So, regardless of how similar a "racial" deity is, and his/her/its Human/generic equivalent, you're never going to get a 100% match. And, if you don't get a 100% match, they're adapting their worship, and worshiping in a way they used to not. And, why would they do that? Especially if they're newcomers, and want to preserve their old way of living and such.

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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  22:08:09  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message
Beings in the realms worship many deities anyways, why would it matter if they worshiped a half dozen deities? Ed Greenwood has said people are generally polytheistic except in a few rare cases. When you are smithing you'd pray to Gond, when you're having a festival you pray to Lliira, etc.

I don't think most of Sehanine's followers moved to realmspace. What are you basing that on? She, and all of the Seldarine, is a multispheric deity worshiped in multiple planes. However, not all multispheric deities are worshiped in the realms. Only two members of the Finnish Pantheon are present in the realms, for example. Only two have chosen to do so, or were allowed to do so by Ao having a unique place of interest in the realms. Selune is an original deity of the world who is the goddess of the Moon/stars and it would be redundant to have Selune and Sehanine both present.

If a tribe of humans were somehow transported to the realms who worshiped Kali, her priestes/shamens wouldn't necessarily be granted spells by Kali here. Whether they would want to choose to continue to worship Kali or not is irrelevant, it is up to Ao whether a deity can have influence in the realms. I don't think there is a set answer to when a deity can migrate or grant spells other than the will of Ao. I don't know that we can argue about what makes more sense when it is a matter of personal choice, and taste. We can't look at Canon necessarily since it contradicts itself (4th edition has no Sehanine, for example...) I read your explanation for why you think it makes more sense, but it doesn't make more sense to me at all. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I personally would choose for only deities that cover some aspect of existence not already represented by another deity to be present in the realms. Of the racial deities they could have an aspect in the realms if it wasn't redundant. Such as Berronar (Marriage, Oaths, and family), Garl (Mischief, Adventure), and Cyrrollalee (Trust, friendship, etc.) because their portfolios don't overlap with another deity that would have already been present's. I wouldn't have deities like Moradin or Correlon because they are redundant with Gond, Milil, and so forth. I've written up and posted before how I would envision a consolidated Faerunian pantheon in a way that seems more consistent and logical to me. I can see in some worlds having racial pantheons, but it doesn't fit how I view religion in the realms very well.

I've always thought there were only racial deities because Ed Greenwood was told to tag them on, or something. That is the impression I was given by the dragon article where he first told us about his pantheon.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2011 :  01:16:14  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
-I never said that most of Sehanine Moonbow's followers came to Realmspace. I arbitrarily picked Sehanine to talk about because she's an interloper deity who followed her worshipers to Realmspace and Selūne has similar portfolios. Replace that example with Corellon Larethian, Rillifane Rallathil, Kiaransalee, the Mulhorandi/Untheric deities, whoever.

-And, if worshipers of Kali were brought here/elsewhere, Kali would still grant them spells, once she "found" them. We know this based on prior canon information regarding interloper deities.

-I'm posting via phone, so if you want, I'll be more in-depth once I get home.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2011 :  02:25:57  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-And, if worshipers of Kali were brought here/elsewhere, Kali would still grant them spells, once she "found" them.
Like the Capellan Confederation, for example... [And I apologise in advance for this poor BATTLETECH-themed joke].

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  06:33:03  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
MrHedgehog, the whole point of the post I made previously was to show precisely why there are racial deities in the first place. You seem to be forgetting that MOST if not ALL of these racial deities are, in fact (as you even mentioned, but apparently don't grasp the ramifications of) multi-spheric. They were deities of those races long before there WAS a Toril. If, for example, an elf lived on Oerth, why would he/she pray to a human deity of that realm when he had a deity of his own race? The idea that a multitude of human gods could ever adequately replace the NATIVE gods of any given race makes no RACIAL sense at all. You're thinking like a human- these other races have their own ideals, their own beliefs regarding what is important to THEIR race, and their own perspectives on the world around them. An elf, no matter what sphere he is born on, is never going to feel comfortable with a deity of a race that does not properly understand or hold the same viewpoints as an elven one would. Just because an elf or dwarf moves to a different sphere, does not change his/her outlook on life or the world. They would not change deities on a new world (whether it's Toril, Oearth, Krynn, or anywhere else in the multi-verse) because they have no REASON to. No other one god(dess) (or group for that matter) would hold the same ideals as their own do. THAT is why they still worship them. Not just because of their portfolios (which my point was to show just how MANY gods they've have to follow to have the same areas of influence as ONE racial deity- which does not include all the OTHER gods of their own pantheon that they ALREADY worship as well) but because of the mindset and perspectives of those deities. A human god would simply not have the understanding of the dwarves to really connect with them as a race. Same goes for orcs- they are simply too different in mentality to ever follow a human deity, because they have different notions of what is important TO THEM.

For that matter, every racial deity is an interloper somewhere. Lolth, Kiaransalle, and Eilistraee (heck, the entire drow and elf pantheons, for that matter) are interlopers from Oearth. (Which was around in D&D much earlier than Toril.) They are allowed in Realmspace because Ao knows that those races need their own gods, and quite frankly, he could not keep them all out if he wanted to, because the heads of those racial pantheons are already in the same level of power (on their home spheres, at least) as he is. In other words, Corellon occupies the same position on the elven "homeworld" as Ao does on Toril itself! And he has standing as a greater deity on MULTIPLE worlds, which means he can basically go when/where he wants. Ao has no real say over him outside of Realmspace, and I doubt he'd argue with Corellon and his pantheon moving in. Selune HAPPENS to have the same portfolio of "moon" as Sehenine. (Though much of the rest of her portfolio is rather different, and they have little in common other than a shared influence on Toril's moon.) In fact, beyond their portfolio of the Moon, and their alignment (both CG) they really have little in common at all! This is based on several editions worth of lore. BTW, that 4th ed omission you mentioned is a ret-con of all previous lore. In 4th ed, Sehenine was "revealed" as an "aspect" of Selune, which really makes no sense at all, since Sehenine is a multi-sphereic deity (as previously mentioned), and Selune has no influence at all outside of Realmspace!

Whether Ed ever intended for those racial deities to be present originally or not is rather immaterial at this point. They have been there since the beginning of publication, and that is what matters. And BTW, Ed himself CREATED many of those racial deities- I happen to have a copy of his book Drow of the Underdark (2nd ed!) which details the drow pantheon for the first time. Prior to that (AFAIK) there was only Lolth, and that was in Greyhawk. Eilistraee and the rest seem to have come directly from that book, so there you go. Many of the other racial deities of the realms may have been his creations as well- we simply don't know.

Now, my question to you is- WHY should elves or dwarves follow a HUMAN god(dess) just because they HAPPEN to have ONE (or perhaps two, but likely no more than that) portfolios that match those of one of their own gods? It would be like an Irish Catholic moving to India and suddenly converting to Buddism! (Sorry for the RW analogy, but it's pretty accurate in terms of cultural differences.) By carrying their faiths with them, they spread them across the multi-verse, which gives their gods more influence on more spheres, and allows them to continue to keep their culture and traditions intact. Faith, at its most basic, is a way of living according to what one believes in, what is most valued and precious to the person. One's faith in an ideal is a very personal thing, and is not subject to change simply because one moves to a place where that faith is unknown. If anything, that would make it even MORE imperative to keep it strong and to hold it even when others around are trying to convert one to their own faith, even though it may hold little to offer. This is the heart of the matter. If you moved to a completely different part of the world, where the culture and views were completely different from yours, would YOU suddenly convert to the local faith, just because they tell you it is SIMILAR to yours? Most people would not. And neither would an elf , dwarf, or gnome. It would be an insult to their beliefs!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  20:15:47  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message
Apparently you don't GRASP many concepts very well either, Alystra. A deity is an embodiment of their portfolio - not an entity with a race. Selune isn't a "human deity", she is a divine force. Deities are vast divine forces not some super powerful entity floating in the sky. They are beings that can perceive in ways a mortal couldn't understand, they don't not understand a worshiper because of their race. It seems like you don't understand the complexities of what a divine being or power is. If you revere the moon and stars in the realms, you would revere
Selune. You can't pray to any effect to a power that doesn't exist in your world, so if you wanted your prayers
answered you'd want to pray to a deity that has power in the place you now reside.

Ao absolutely controls the realms. Correlon is not as powerful as he is in relamspace, that is absurd. Ao is an
overpower with complete control over realmspace. He cast down all the Gods in the Time of Troubles, obviously
including many greater powers.

There are many examples of non-humans worshiping what you describe as "human powers". There is a city of Kuo-Toa
who worship Shar, Halflings clerics of Lliira, human clerics of Lolth, elven clerics of "gnomish gods" etc. within the forgotten realms. Then if we include the planes where we'd have to look at Planescape there are Dwarven clerics of Shiva, and many other examples. It makes absolutely no sense for races to matter very much where powers are concerned. The real world is a good example of the fact that religions are not localized, why are there Buddhists who aren't Indian when that religion originated there? Why does a faith exist all over the world? Because faith transcends a race. Humanoid beings are all described as being fairly similar to humans, halflings are not alien beings we can't understand. Just beings with a different body and culture. Race is a petty and irrelevant thing to base religion on.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  22:22:40  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
-Let's recap:

-Elves, like a lot of other non-Human humanoids, and plenty of sentient monstrous races, are not native to Realmspace. We know, continuing to use Elves as the example, that they lived on the Plane of Faerie before coming to live in Realmspace. While on the Plane of Faerie, the Elves who eventually came to live in Realmspace had their own deities. We know the first Sun/Moon Elves, the survivors of Tintageer, worshiped Angharradh, at the very least. Angharradh is "composed" of Sehanine Moonbow, Hanali Celanil, and Aerdrie Faenya, to the Sun Elves who do not believe that Angharradh is her own distinct entity, so we know those Elves knew of and/or worshiped those three distinct goddesses as well.

-When the survivors of Tintageer came to Realmspace, they brought their culture with them. Their culture included the worship of Sehanine Moonbow, among others. Before the survivors of Tintageer came, it is likely that Sehanine Moonbow was not active in Realmspace (The Wood Elves, Lythari, Avariel, and Dark Elves who predated the Sun and Moon Elves of Tintageer probably did not venerate Sehanine Moonbow). When those Elves began worshiping her, in Realmspace, she became active in Realmspace. The independent deity that is Sehanine Moonbow, who previously ignored Realmspace because there existed no worshipers of hers there, became active there, because worshipers of hers wound up there.

-Those survivors of Tintageer, upon winding up in Realmspace, they did not suddenly reject their deities, for deities that already existed in Realmspace and were active- how would they instinctively know what deities existed in Realmspace, anyway? And, as Alystra Illianniis poignantly raised, similar portfolios, outlooks, and dogmas do not translate wholesale and are not generally interchangeable to worshipers- Judaism and Islam are similar in such a way, with a divine figure who is the same entity, rules to live by that are similar, a moral philosophy that are similar, and so on, but a Jew cannot simply shift his/her mode of worship to that of Islam, and a Muslim to that of Judaism with a flick of the wrist, and a snap of the finger. Those continued worshiping the deities they always had- deities in a pantheon that, according to their own creation myths, created their entire race, and as such, had special connections to them. In doing so, in continuing to worship those deities, those deities came to become active in Realmspace. They were not generically worshiping the moon, or stars, or other physical objects, as you say, Mr. Hedgehog. They were worshiping, quite plainly and quite specifically, Sehanine Moonbow, or other members of the Seldarine. Dwarves, they would be worshiping specific members of the Mordinsamman. And so on. If they had no specific conception of deities, and worshiped objects or places, as many primitive cultures did/do, yes, that worship would go to some native deity- Chauntea, perhaps, if it was a specific place, or Lathander, if it was the sun, or Selūne, if they were celestial objects in the night sky. But, in cases like this, we have worship going to specific deities, not generalities without their own divine sentience, like rocks, or stars, or the sun.

-Nobody, anywhere, said that non-Humans cannot worship Human deities, or the opposite, that Humans cannot worship non-Human deities. A Human who is born in Zhentil Keep, to two members of the Zhentarim, it is highly unlikely that he or she grows up worshiping Moradin. An Elf, born to the Durothil family on Evermeet, it is highly unlikely that he or she grows up worshiping Ibrandul. So, Elves who grow up worshiping the Seldarine are more likely to perpetuate the worship of the Elven deities than, say, Dwarves who grow up worshiping the Mordinsamman.

-And, because it is relevant, plenty of racial, pantheon heads have as their divine portfolios the race that they are most associated with them, that the myths say they created- Corellon Larethian has 'Elves', Moradin has 'Dwarves', Yondella has 'Halflings', Caladuran Smoothhands has 'Svirfneblin', Lolth has 'Drow', and so on and so forth. An Elf is more likely to worship the Elven deities, that supposedly created Elves, and whom have 'Elves' in their divine portfolios, that their forefathers worshiped, than it is for them to worship a power who is totally foreign to them and their culture. This is why Elves worship the Seldarine, primarily, Dwarves the Mordinsamman, and so on.

-So, in short, race, because it is a major factor in influencing culture, is one of the primary, influential things that "determine" the deity or deities that any one individual, of whatever race, worships. To use the real world analogies again, the Irish Catholic, who was born in Ireland and grew up in a devout Catholic family, is not going to randomly and arbitrarily be Buddhist. He or she might convert, sometime later in life, on their own volition, but the odds that he or she start off Buddhist, given their background, is slim to none. The Buddhist, who was born in India, and grew up in a traditional Indian Buddhist family, is not going to randomly and arbitrarily be a Catholic. He or she might convert, sometime later in life, on their own volition, but the odds that he or she start off Catholic, given their background, is slim to none.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Jun 2011 22:26:07
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  03:41:23  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
And to draw that example out, he or she would have very little likelihood of converting either, just because they move to the region where the dominant culture worships that particular deity. A person must have a truly compelling reason to convert to a different faith, because a person's faith is very much a part of who they are. This is true of humans, elves, dwarves, or any other race you could name- Halflings identify themselves AS A RACE by the concepts embodied by their gods. Not just one or two of those concepts, but ALL OF THEM. That means they would not simply convert to Chauntea or Tymora simply because those deities embody one or two of the things they value. The same is true of all the other D&D races. Their gods embody ALL that they are, not just one or two ideas.

MH, please do not assume that I do not understand the concepts of deities simply because I describe them as belonging to a specific "race". The simple fact is, those deities have been shaped and molded into that form by millenia of worship by the races they created. They are as much elven or dwarven as the races who follow them- because they were influenced into that form by their followers! The creation myths of the elves, dwarves, humans, and even orcs, all describe them as creating their respective races "in their own images". Now, one could argue that this means they were already of the "race" that they created, though as others have pointed out, this is perhaps more an abstraction, a way of saying that the races they created revered and held dear the same concepts and ideals that they themselves do. I think the truth is somewhere in between. Since you haven't answered my previous question, I'll address the comment you brought up, and expand on it. If you revere the moon on Toril, you revere Selune or the goddess of the moon who is most closely affiliated with it in the eyes of your own people- and for elves, that is Sehenine, just as it is Eilistraee for drow.

Also, I did not say that Corellon is as powerful as Ao in Realmspace. Read that post again. It says that in the elves' HOME planet of origin (as each race supposedly has one) Corellon holds the same place as Ao does on Toril. He also holds the position of head of his pantheon, just as Ao does in Realmspace. In other words, on the "homeworld" of elves (in Spelljamming terms) Corellon is the "over-god" of the elven gods, just as Ao is the over-god of the Torilian powers. And Corellon is multi-sphereic, which gives him considerably more power than Ao overall. Ao might be more powerful in Realmspace itself, but outside of it, Corellon has a much higher place in the multiverse.

Since elves are the running example, I'll continue with them. Corellon is the living embodiment of elven perfection- skilled in magic, war, the arts, archery, woodcraft, music, poetry, and crafts. He is a protector, a wise counselor, and a benevelant leader. All of these are the things that elves aspire to- this is why elves generally revere him over all other deities. Sehenine is much the same- she embodies the elven love of mystery, moonlight, their dreams, and the future(divination), as well as death, transcendence, and journeys. Selune, on the other hand, is concerned mainly with good or neutral lycanthropes, navigation, and those on quests. Your focus on the moon as her area of influence (which she SHARES with both Sehenine and Eilistraee, BTW) assumes that this is her only real area of focus. It is not. Just as both Tempus and Garagos (as well as Red Knight- and all of whom are HUMAN deities, and native to Toril, BTW) share the portfolio of war, there is room for more than one deity of any given portfolio, especially when they embody that concept in the eyes of different races. An elf might pray to Corellon during times of war, while a human would prefer Tempus or Garagos, even though ALL of them have dominion over war in the eyes of their own followers!

I'm going to take a moment now to make a distinction, and reiterate what Lord Karsus said. Nowhere did I say that an INDIVIDUAL elf or dwarf or what-have-you cannot or would not revere a deity of humans or any other race- just that they do not do so AS A RACE. That is a big distinction. An elf or dwarf raised in a land of humans, in a culture that is different from that of most of his own kind, may indeed worship gods of other races- but these are the exceptions, NOT the rule. While an individual or small community may worship a deity foreign to their own race, in general, most will prefer the deities of their own kind. It is part of their racial heritage and sense of self. Elves identify with the Seldarine, because according to their myths, those gods CREATED them. The dwarves identify with the Moradinsammen for the same reason- it is a matter of racial pride and history. A matter of knowing where one comes from. Strip this away from the race, and you are left with nothing but "humans with beards or funny ears". I'll ask the question again, in a different light- why would a race who sees Sehenine as one of their creators choose instead to follow a goddess of another race's mythology, just because she shares the domain of the moon?

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  04:57:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
Perhaps a few deep breaths are in order, folks...

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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  05:07:04  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message
I have already answered all of your questions. I only said that you didn't understand what I was saying in direct imitation of what you said to me about not understanding what you're saying. Which seemed fairly condescending, insulting, and dense of you... so I thought i'd return the favour.I wouldn't normally capitalize things randomly in sentences... I wouldn't normally try to be combative except for your initiating it. Especially not on something like
this that is a matter of subjective opinion. This argument started when I said "I don't
like the idea of racial deities". It never occured to me until 4th edition was released
that there wouldn't be racially specific deities. After seeing it and thinking on it
I thought it made far more sense for the realms. (Except Gruumsh being Talos, and
that they did it hapharzadly with some left, some gone, :S) I don't really expect
to change your mind about this, but I don't appreciate being told my subjective opinion
on a fantasy world is wrong. I am going to defend my position, however.


It is absolutely not true that in the forgotten realms more than one
deity can share a portfolio. They may have printed that there were
racial deities because they already existed but is isn't consistent
with how deities are presented in the forgotten realms. The mulhorandi
and faerunian pantheons were slowly merging over the course of history.
The authors of Faiths and Avatars specifically said that two deities could
not share the same portfolio. They gave the example of Anhur and Tempus.
Only one could hold the portfolio of war, and Anhur would have to leave
the realms or be reduced to a demipower. By that logic Sehanine,
Eilistraee, and Selune would not all be able to claim the portfolio of
"the moon". Kiputtyto and Talona couldn't both be the gods of disease.
Although in many places multiple pantheons can co-exist, that isn't consistent
with how deities work in the realms.

Regardless, in the REAL WORLD religion could be seen as just a matter of faith. But in
fantasy settings people have faith, AND their deities provide tangible benefits or detriments to their worshipers or those who slight them. Umberlee doesn'ts sink you, Tymora actually gives you good luck, Selune will actually guide you, Cyric allows you to better deceive someone. . .

If a deity weren't present in the realms they wouldn't be able to aid their worshipers,
connect with them while they are praying, send omens, etc. People wouldn't feel as inclined to worship them. Especially if you're used to actually hearing about or even witnessing miracles performed by divine spellcasters. If you migrated from one world to another, you'd expect a lot of change during that move. Selune is the embodiment of the moon in the realms, and actually involved in the creation of life in the realms. Someone would worship her over another deity (sehanine) because of her connection to the world they now inhabited and the benefits she provides her worshipers.

We know that many beings in the realms worship deities who aren't their creator deities, in the examples that I gave.Then there are also many races that don't have associated deities such as Loxo, Thri-Kreen, Gloamings, Slyth, etc. Then they just worship the "human" (or I would prefer to call "native")deities like Silvanus, Shar, and the like. If they easily worship a deity that doesn't appear like they do, why would it be any different for any other race? In their religious imagry they might just re-interpret whatever deity it is as appearing like they do, or simply look beyond the physical to the actual spiritual essence that a deity is. Blibdoolpoolp is not portrayed as resembling Kuo-Toa, if you believe in a deity the form it takes is rather inconsequential. Although deities can manifest in avatars they do not necessarily have set "forms". They would be able to appear in many different forms. Lolth might appear as a Chitine to Chitines, a human to humans, a quaggoth to quaggoths, and so forth. Another example is in, I believe, the novel Prince of Lies Mask appears as a female giantess "Diancastra". This shows a concrete canonical example of Deities not having a specific form and that they can appear in a multitude of forms. (Which is another example that disproves that having worshipers means you're present in the realms - She exists in other worlds, why not Faerun? Why is she "Mask" in the realms if having migrant worshipers causes you to exist wherever they go? Marduk is dead in the realms, is the multi-spheric Marduk dead too?) If Dwarves, Crabmen, Halflings, Gnomes, Orcs, and Kuo-Toa all worshiped all worshiped an angry sea goddess, it would make sense for it to all be one entity. They may all perceive that entity to appear as a different being, with a different name, and the like - but within the realms it is logical for that angry sea goddess to all be one entity (Umberlee...)
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  05:31:04  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
The FRCG and FRPG both indicate that while, out in the infinite cosmos, the "consolidated" pantheon is the "real" pantheon, this consolidation is unnoticed by people 'in the Realms'. Temples dedicated to Henali, Sehanine, Talos et al still exist, their worshipers are still granted their spells, and business moves along as usual.


Brace Cormaeril
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  07:08:14  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
No one was being combative or condescending, MH- my original statement was meant to point out that you might not have taken the full ramifications of a multi-spheric deity into account. Perhaps you perceived it that way, but it is not the case. And for the record, those "randomly capitalized words" are not random at all. That is done for emphasis. Sorry if that was not clear to you- I did not think it needed explaining, since it is fairly clear from the context that they were important. And BTW, no one likes to be called dense- that really IS insulting, which is something I'd like to keep out of this thread altogether, IF you don't mind. And now on to the counter-point....

So are you completely "ignoring" the fact that Tempus, Garagos, and Corellon ALL(emphasis!) have war in their portfolios? This completely negates the point you made about multiple deities not being allowed to share a portfolio, as does Selune and Seheniine sharing the moon. There are other examples, such as Mask, Shargaas, and Vaerhaun(thieves), Cyric and Set(murder), Loviatar and Ilmater(suffering), and so on. As originally intended, it was meant that two deities could not share the EXACT(again- capp'ed for emphasis) same portfolios- meaning that there could not be two gods who shared ALL(ditto here) of the same domains of interest. And here's a point you might want to consider- all of the base races' main deities (Corellon, Moradin, Garl, and Yondalla, and even Gruumsh) are- and always have been- among the "core" D&D gods, being included in the pantheons of each setting. (Or at least being present within their own pantheons within each setting.) This means they are part of the overall cosmology of the D&D multiverse, not just present in the Realms or some other world. They have been included in the deity listings of every edition from the beginning, which is something that most of the Faerunian pantheon has not done- at least in print, anyway. If they were part of Ed's original Realms, we will never know, but the racial gods predate most of them in print- making the racial gods more "native" than the Faerunian gods!


I'd also like to note that all of the missing/gone deities you brought up per 4th ed were either A: simply omitted from the books, and were not explicitly stated as "gone" or "dead"- just not printed. B: mentioned as having been killed sometime during the 100-year jump between editions. Or C: Ret-conned into aspects of other deities as an attempt to pare down the listings. All of the "missing" gods can be "found" under one of those headings- and this has been stated by several designers. As for the dead gods- if a deity is killed on Toril, it no longer has access to that sphere, AFAIK, though it may still exist on other worlds in which it had influence, unless it was only known on Toril itself, in which case it is truly dead, and drifts as a god-corpse on the Astral plane. But even "dead" gods can be brought back, as Mystra herself has shown twice already!

Also, in the case of many of the miscellaneous races you mentioned, they do indeed have deities- gloamings are fey, who usually follow either Lurue(as a deity of magical creatures) or Titania as Queen of Fairy. (She IS a deity- or at least WAS- as per the 2nd ed Monster Mythology book.) Not familiar with slyth, so I don't know whom they would worship, but the concept of gods is largely foreign to thri-kreen anyway, or was at least until 3rd ed. Not sure if that has changed. There is a similar race known as aspis(intelligent giant ant-men) who have no gods at all, because they have no concept of divinity- the article that introduced them mentioned that they are related to the thri-kreens, so I'd imagine the same holds true for the mantis-men. There is no need for any of those races to follow human (or native, if you prefer) deities at all. The logic does not hold up.

Although deities can APPEAR in any form they wish, they DO also have a "true form", as can be easily seen in the book "Evermeet: Island of Elves", when Corellon banishes Araushnee(and names her a Tana'ri) and curses her with the spider-drow form. Her true form, however, remains that of a beautiful female drow- as it was before her banishment. But she uses both forms. Corellon himself was stated as being a very handsome elven male. (Though he sometimes appears in a female form, or an androgynous one that appears to be either/both/neither.) And yes, having worshipers in the Realms pretty much DOES mean that a deity is present there. Even if it is only a small cult, any deity that has at least a few followers(the exact number required has never been specified, but at least a hundred would be my guess) can have a presence on Toril, so long as Ao allows it. The form a deity takes is as important to his/her followers as what that deity represents. Would a drow follow Vaerhaun as willingly if he looked like a halfling? Don't think so. And he IS a drow- that is his "true" form, regardless of what shape he takes to an individual follower.

And I don't believe you answered the questions at all- I asked "WHY would a being of non-human race worship a "human" deity who HAPPENS to share similar interests to a god(dess) of their OWN race, instead their own racial deity?" The only answer you gave is to say that one is more "native", which really does not answer the question of WHY they would WANT to make such a change in faith. And in truth, most of those other races were on Toril worshiping their gods before those human gods existed. (Except Selune, Shar, and Mystra, who are part of the original "human" creation myth of Toril.) All the others seem to date from after the various races arrived on Faerun. So that arguement doesn't seem to hold up. Incidentally, I don't believe that the benefits of faith has anything to do with whether an elf or dwarf follows one god or another. Since they all offer some sort of "reward" for worship (more to priests than to lay-followers) there is no real point to bringing up spells or other benefits. The only reason that faith was mentioned AT ALL was to point out that the faith in their racial "creators" is part of the racial identity of elves, dwarves, etc. This has little to do with whether they get spells, or luck, or anything else a specific deity might grant. It has EVERYTHING to do with how they VIEW their origins and culture. That's a very different subject from whether or not deity x gives them better crops or helps their business prosper, or what have you. A dwarf's viwes on life are vastly different from a human's. In the same way, Abbathor is not going to share the same ideals as Waukeen, even though their areas of interest overlap. In the same way, Sashelas is very different from Umberlee (to use your example) even though they both share domain of the sea. Tell a sea elf he's been worshiping Umberlee, and see what that gets you! (A trident in the gut, I'd wager....)

Also, no one ever said your idea was WRONG- it's perfectly fine for YOUR Realms- but it does not work for the canon Realms. Those deities are there for a reason- for good or ill. You originally stated that you did not understand why there was a NEED for racial gods- and we answered, with very good reasons. If all you want to do is to pare down the number of gods, then why not take out those "human" ones who have similar portfolios, rather than try to force players of other races to conform to a mold of "human" deities only? Instead of taking out Moradin, Gruumsh, and Corellon, why not take out Grumbar, Talos, and Oghma instead? By your own logic, they are extraneous, because there are already "racial" gods with those portfolios. That would make far more sense, as it would allow them to keep their racial identities intact, and give them the option of playing priests of their own racial gods. If they wish to choose a human one, that's fine too- but DON'T expect your players to be happy when you tell them that the only god of war they can play is Tempus, when they are playing an elven Warmage who wants to follow Corellon instead!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  07:17:24  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
quote:

Originally posted by Alystra Illianis
Also, no one ever said your idea was WRONG- it's perfectly fine for YOUR Realms- but it does not work for the canon Realms.



No offense, but the consolidated pantheon *is* canon...

Brace Cormaeril
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  18:32:08  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
-MrHedgehog, the part that, it seems to me, you're not getting is that, when "foreigners" come to Realmspace and pray to the deities that they prayed to in their native lands, those deities "immigrate" to Realmspace, to help their followers. When Elves came to Realmspace, their deities "followed them", and as such, there'd be no reason for Elven culture, in general, to follow a native deity of Realmspace. When the Mulhorandi came to Realmspace, their deities "followed them", and as such, there'd be no reason for Mulhorandi culture, in general, to follow a native deity of Realmspace. When the Untheric came to Realmspace, their deities "followed them", and as such, there'd be no reason for Untheric culture, in general, to follow a native deity of Realmspace. When Drow came to Realmspace, their deities "followed them", and as such, there'd be no reason for Drow culture, in general, to follow a native deity of Realmspace. And so on, and so forth.

-Getting back to the Masked Lady, which sparked all of this, with her existing (or rather, Vhaeraun) concurrently with Mask, when the Drow came to Realmspace, they worshiped Vhaeraun (Ancient Attornash was primarily filled with Vhaeraunites). Mask was culturally unknown to them. Why would they start worshiping Mask when, culturally, Vhaeraun was their theif-deity, and he immigrated with the Drow to Realmspace to continue granting them spells and such?

quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

The FRCG and FRPG both indicate that while, out in the infinite cosmos, the "consolidated" pantheon is the "real" pantheon, this consolidation is unnoticed by people 'in the Realms'. Temples dedicated to Henali, Sehanine, Talos et al still exist, their worshipers are still granted their spells, and business moves along as usual.


-Hence why I brought up the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities. According to 4e canon I don't like, that above stuff is the "truth". It is canon, however, so...The Mulhorandi and Untheric deities, they still fit in the equation above, and are their own distinct entities according to canon (for the time being).

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 06 Jun 2011 18:34:12
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3750 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  20:32:36  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I stopped following canon with the end of 3.5, so take that as you will- but everything I've brought up IS/WAS canon up to that time. As far as 4th ed is concerned, it's only canon if A: you play in the post-Spellplague era, and B: you actually chose to use the new "consolidated" pantheon, rather than continue with previous lore. We know from the book The Ghost King that at least Deneir is gone, and Mystra of course was killed. Lathander was "reinvented" as Amaunator, Eilistraee was "slain", and I'm sure there are others I"ve not mentioned. But the point is that if you take out all the racial deities, you would in fact loose much of that "flavor" of the Realms that having a multitude of deities has always brought to it.

Just to put this into perspective- I ran through the Faiths and Pantheons book- the most up-to-date- one I have- (I REFUSE to buy any 4th ed sourcebooks. Novels, perhaps, if they're good, but no "game" stuff. A tiny piece of me died along with Mystra and Eilistraee....) and looked at all the "racial" deities out there. If they were taken out, that book would have only about 1/4th of the gods currently listed! (Trust me, I went over it page by page.) Just to show what I mean, I'll count off the ones I found. Elven pantheon(for a total of 12 deities)- all gone. Dwarven pantheon(another 14!)are also gone. Gnomish gods(8 here)- gone. Halflings(they have 6)- also gone. And drow, of course(6 more- and who needs Lolth, anyway- right?! Might as well not even have drow in the Realms, in that case. Except Drizzt- but he falls under Meilikki, who is also gone, as described below. Liriel? Um, she went from Lolth to eilistraee to Mystra. Andthat's to say nothing of all the other drow that have been in novels and sourcebooks. That is a LOT of NPC's gone!) All of those would be gone. Orcs? There's another 6 to take a hike. Goblins- Magubliyet and at least two more, I believe. Kobolds- Kurtulmek is gone. Dragons? Tiamat, Bahamut, and Io, as well as all their children(for a total of 8, I think) all gone! Then there's the Giantish gods (one for each major sub-type- fire, frost, storm, hill, cloud, and stone) who would also be out. Now comes the fun part- if you want to take out ALL the racial deities, you'd also have to get rid of Selune and Malar(good and evil lycanthropes, respectively- but that leaves you without a moon deity, unless you count Hathor. Go figure....) Shar, since she's both patron of the Shades AND anyone else who uses shadow magic (not to mention the shar-kai, apparently, which means she has two races.) Set, because of yaun-ti, Sebek, because of were-crocs and other intelligent reptiles; Auril, Akadi, Kossuth, and istishia and Grumbar (all elemental deities, which takes in genesi and other elemental creatures); Meilikki, for dryads and other intelligent forest creatures, Umberlee, for weresharks, sahuagins, and other evil sea folk; Finder- as patron of saurials(sorry, Dragonbait!); Lurue and Nobanion(both of whom were part of Ed's ORIGINAL deities of the Realms- read his post on the "lion and Unicorn" of British legend that was the basis for those two. Highly intriguing!); Sharess/Bast(catfolk of all kinds)Siamorph(HUMAN royalty- that makes her a "racial" deity without doubt!); Ubtao(dinosaurs- though I've yet to see one who has a faith, unless it's awakened perhaps.) Ulutiu(yetis and other arctic beings); and Geb(another elemental god). Also all the fey gods (Titania, Oberon, Queen of Air and Darkness, as well as that winged unicorn whose name I never remember), the Lycanthrope gods (there were five- one each for bear, boar, wolf, fox, and cat, respectively.) And of course no Illsensine(Illithids), Beholder god, Asmodeus(tieflings!) or other miscelaneous deities I've missed. What are we left with? A very small number of gods, and a HUGE number of missing portfolios!

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  21:17:50  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
Oh, so MrHedghog's view is in line with Canon, while you dismiss those sections you don't like. That's fine for YOUR Realms, but is NOT in line with Canon.

Brace Cormaeril
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  21:24:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
I think we're done, here.

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