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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 01:56:31
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Okay, so I just started this novel, I'm hoping its good but I have a question. It opens with a massive Sahuaghin attack on Waterdeep on 30 Ches 1370 DR. Is this the sahuaghin attack described in Rising Tide, book I of the 'The Threat from the Sea'? Because in that book this attack takes place on 30 Chess 1369.
Any know how this is resolved?
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 02:00:06
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Yes, that's the same one. AFAIK, prior to the said novel, Waterdeep had never suffered from massive Sahuaghin attack except the one during the Threat from the Sea trilogy.
And if I may add, I didn't enjoy that book. The villains feel way too off [and boring] for me. It's a standard Ed novel. I almost didn't notice an "Elaine touch" to it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 20 Apr 2011 02:02:36 |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 11:03:25
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| That still leaves open the question how the contradictory dates are resolved... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 11:38:19
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Editorial mistake. Note also that the Realms [or is it the entire D&D Universe?] no longer has a "cop" who ensures consistency in the novels. So something like that is bound to happen. Sort of expected. And frankly, who cares?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 00:58:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Editorial mistake. Note also that the Realms [or is it the entire D&D Universe?] no longer has a "cop" who ensures consistency in the novels. So something like that is bound to happen. Sort of expected. And frankly, who cares?!
Me? It could have an impact on my campaign, which is set in late 1369!
It is a pretty obvious contradiction.
Is it listed in the published GHotRs? I only have the web versions and in there the sahuaghin attack is still listed for 1369.
I had hopes for this one, I usually dislike Ed's novels and love Elaines, I had hoped working together I might get the best of bothw orlds. :) |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 01:31:42
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My opinion about the book is just that: an opinion. I don't like it, sure. And I can enumerate the very long list as to why. But some scribes do love it.
Anyway, I guess had Ed and Elaine been given a free rein as who they would write about [I heard their plan was to write about Khelben, or some other long-standing FR character], we might have seen "the best of both worlds." It was WotC who told them to write about new characters. Hence, those boring fops and equally sleep-inducing villains. Though at times I had fun reading it, like when every pointless character dies; when that old sorceress [forgot her name] is roused from sleep to help protect Piergeron; and when finally the book ends. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 12:04:28
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| The ending was very well done |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 12:43:49
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GM, consider the date confusion a scribe's error. The prelude of CoS should coincide with the attack described in THREAT FROM THE SEA.
Dennis is correct. Ed and I pitched a book that dealt with Waterdeep's history with Khelben Arunsun as the unifying character. This was to be in the same vein as the novels CORMYR and EVERMEET. After the contract was signed and the project underway, the editor requested that we write a very different novel, one set in current time with a cast of new, low-level characters. The resulting story was a departure for both Ed and me, and yes, readers vary rather widely in their reaction to it.
But, no regrets. I'm glad I had the opportunity to work with Ed. The writing process was a LOT of fun.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 13:04:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
But, no regrets. I'm glad I had the opportunity to work with Ed. The writing process was a LOT of fun.
Will be seeing another collaboration in the near future? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 13:49:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
But, no regrets. I'm glad I had the opportunity to work with Ed. The writing process was a LOT of fun.
Will be seeing another collaboration in the near future?
It seems unlikely.
Not from lack of interest, but lack of time. We each could have written two or three novels (Okay, yeah--I could have written one novel and Ed could have written four ....) in the time it took to write and revise and revise (and revise) CoS.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 15:38:49
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As it happens, coincidence having a long arm and all that, I asked Ed about future Ed/Elaine collaborations when I talked to him at Ad Astra.
He said he loved doing it, too, and "would work with Elaine again in a flash; she's a good friend, a great lady, and a SUPERB writer who's seriously underrated outside gaming circles," but also said it took forever and it's unlikely Wizards would "go for another collaboration" when they could have multiple novels by those involved, instead.
The book draws wide critical reactions. I think it comes down to what a particular reader is looking for, in a Realms novel.
A big-city librarian I once talked about the Realms with said they didn't stock any of "that trash" on their library shelves. I was a bit miffed at that dismissal, and went to those same shelves, pulled out their TWO (well-read, or at least battered) copies of CoS, waved them in front of her, and asked, "Trash, hey? So why'd you buy TWO copies, then?"
Her response was: "Oh, that book's good. That and the Hell one with Elminster in it are REAL books, not genre fantasy garbage. Why can't they all be like those, with proper characters and depth and not just endless, pointless fighting?"
I stood up for other Realms books that I thought were good and that she might like, but she wasn't having any. (BTW, she said their copy of EL in Hell had been stolen.)
BB |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 15:45:28
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And for what it's worth, GMWestermeyer, that battle's a Prologue set before the rest of the book, so you can ignore the dating page, read the prose, and it doesn't really change/affect/ruin the rest of the story at all.
The young protagonist goes to Waterdeep in the midst of the battles, meets an important Waterdhavian personality, and so already has a little "history" in the city when the main action of the narrative picks up.
Interestingly, what happened to Ed and Elaine when writing this one ties right in to your "Editors bum rap" thread. The whole book got changed in mid-project, and drastically shortened, too. (Shades of Spellfire . . .) |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 15:52:32
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Yes, the book took frickin' FOREVER to write. Part of that was the back-and-forth nature of the process, part of it were things such as changes to the requested word count. We were given a word count range and wrote to the outer limit of it. Then Ed received a call from the editor requesting that he cut about 14,000 words. That's the equivalent of about 50 typed, double-spaced pages. It's a big, BIG cut, very time consuming to do.
After this experience, I make it a point to ask editors what the REAL word count is supposed to be. The contract might give a range of, say, 90,000 - 110,000, but the difference of 20,000 can result in a very different novel. Pacing, subplots, even the number of POV characters one can effectively juggle tend to shift with the addition or subtraction of that much story. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 15:54:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
Interestingly, what happened to Ed and Elaine when writing this one ties right in to your "Editors bum rap" thread. The whole book got changed in mid-project, and drastically shortened, too. (Shades of Spellfire . . .)
To be fair, it wasn't in "mid-project." It was early stages, when we met with the editor at GenCon to discuss the proposal. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 15:59:18
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For the record, I don't mean to sound as if I'm shifting responsibility for any of the book's perceived shortcomings. The novel's back story might be a little more convoluted than some, but the actual story is what it is. Ed and I created the plot and characters, and we're responsible for the things you liked about the book and the things you didn't like.
I'm a firm believer in the importance of flexibility for a shared-world writer. There are times when you need to rethink, rewrite, or change direction entirely. If you're not willing to do that, you should probably write something else. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 21 Apr 2011 16:00:10 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 16:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
GM, consider the date confusion a scribe's error. The prelude of CoS should coincide with the attack described in THREAT FROM THE SEA.
Dennis is correct. Ed and I pitched a book that dealt with Waterdeep's history with Khelben Arunsun as the unifying character. This was to be in the same vein as the novels CORMYR and EVERMEET. After the contract was signed and the project underway, the editor requested that we write a very different novel, one set in current time with a cast of new, low-level characters. The resulting story was a departure for both Ed and me, and yes, readers vary rather widely in their reaction to it.
But, no regrets. I'm glad I had the opportunity to work with Ed. The writing process was a LOT of fun.
I know that it will probably never happen, but I would still love to someday read a book on the original concept, still by you and Ed. Cormyr and Evermeet are two of my favorite Realms novels. |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 18:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
GM, consider the date confusion a scribe's error. The prelude of CoS should coincide with the attack described in THREAT FROM THE SEA.
Dennis is correct. Ed and I pitched a book that dealt with Waterdeep's history with Khelben Arunsun as the unifying character. This was to be in the same vein as the novels CORMYR and EVERMEET. After the contract was signed and the project underway, the editor requested that we write a very different novel, one set in current time with a cast of new, low-level characters. The resulting story was a departure for both Ed and me, and yes, readers vary rather widely in their reaction to it.
But, no regrets. I'm glad I had the opportunity to work with Ed. The writing process was a LOT of fun.
I know that it will probably never happen, but I would still love to someday read a book on the original concept, still by you and Ed. Cormyr and Evermeet are two of my favorite Realms novels.
I agree. Both Evermeet and Cormyr are teeming with lore, and very interesting reads. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 01:37:41
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Thanks for the responses! Okay, basically a typo, this first chapter should be in 1369, not 1370. Cool. :) I was worried I had somehow misplaced a second major sahuaghin attack on Waterdeep. ;)
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 03:42:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The ending was very well done
Honestly, I didn't really care. I was just glad that it ended. I wrote a review of it in one of the magazines I occasionally contribute in, and it's definitely far from the rate of ten (which is the perfect rating). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 03:26:30
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I personally loved Waterdeep and wish that it could have had the original word count. I also think that it was too bad that shortly after its release the spellplague destroyed everything and we didn't get a follow up to those characters.
I would also have loved to see a khelben centered novel like Cormyr and Evermeet however.
Honestly anything Realms by Elaine and Ed would be welcome. |
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 16:38:32
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I enjoyed it, too.
The librarian's review board I often read, because the reviewers tend to be veteran readers with some perspective and balance rather than authors in disguise doing their own PR or rabid haters of particular writers showing up to grind axes, called Ed and Elaine's novel "superior but flawed" . . . by which they meant it was better than much gaming-related fantasy fiction they had previously reviewed, but was too flawed to be deemed "superb" or "first-rate." Most of the flaws they mentioned had to do with insufficient explanations for non-Realms readers, which can be attributed to the written manuscript being shortened.
The board gave it a 7.5 out of 10.
Sorry, Dennis, but there ARE other opinions out there.
BA |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 20:20:37
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I'm not to far in yet but I suspect part of the reason people react strongly is the two main characters so far, Mrelder and Beldar seem very off, they don't seem like heroes at all. It is intriguing though. :)
Anyway, I do see now how easily the date thing is fixed. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 01:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Baleful Avatar
I enjoyed it, too.
The librarian's review board I often read, because the reviewers tend to be veteran readers with some perspective and balance rather than authors in disguise doing their own PR or rabid haters of particular writers showing up to grind axes, called Ed and Elaine's novel "superior but flawed" . . . by which they meant it was better than much gaming-related fantasy fiction they had previously reviewed, but was too flawed to be deemed "superb" or "first-rate." Most of the flaws they mentioned had to do with insufficient explanations for non-Realms readers, which can be attributed to the written manuscript being shortened.
The board gave it a 7.5 out of 10.
Sorry, Dennis, but there ARE other opinions out there.
BA
Indeed. And I hardly care about those "other." What I care about are my readers' opinions---to some extent.
And for the record, I never use "flaw" in my reviews, because that connotes that a novel can be "perfect." Perfection to me is somewhere out there; it can never be attained, but one may try to. Ergo, there is no perfect novel for me, nor a flawed one. What I use is "inadequate." Naturally, I set the parameters of adequacy, often going back to the authors' previous works, noting a point or two from some well-accepted literary standard (which I know is highly subjective), and ultimately, accenting my "own" standard. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2011 : 22:21:04
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Heh. Dennis, I suspect Baleful Avatar was "noting a point or two from some well-accepted literary standard," because to him, that librarians' board functions as a "well-accepted literary standard."
As a writer, I pay attention to my readers, but first pay attention to myself (otherwise, why write whatever it is at all?), and second to my editor (because if I don't, I don't get published).
As an editor, I pay attention to the telling of the story first and foremost, and to how it fits the planned publishing slot (length, content, matching sell copy already "out there" in the catalogue, and so on) second.
What matters to most publishers is not the expressed opinions of individual readers, but the silent "opinions" they express with their wallets. If Author X sells well, it really doesn't matter what I or you or the next reader over thinks of what they write, so long as their verbiage isn't going to land the publisher in legal trouble/unbudgeted costs.
I've been a writer, I've been a critic, and I've been an editor (more than the other two), and I tend to value crit most from people whose background and tastes I know. They may not be friends, I may not like them, and I may deliberately choose to read books they hated, because of what I've learned of how their tastes and discernment differ from mine.
And one thing I've learned from more than thirty years dabbling in publishing: there are a lot of "bad" or derivative or flawed/inadequate books out there that are beloved by somebody (sometimes a LOT of somebodies). There is no One Perfect Reader with tastes accepted universally; if books come along at the right moment in a particular reader's life, they can be lifechanging and become many-times-reread touchstones for that reader. (Even when the reader can see their shortcomings, at the time.)
I recall, long ago, having to gently explain to a colleague who was dismissing the Ellis Peters Brother Cadfael mysteries as "pale copies of THE NAME OF THE ROSE" that whatever she might have thought of them, they couldn't be derivative of Eco's book, because many of them had been published before Eco ever started writing THE NAME OF THE ROSE. So reader background has a lot to do with their opinions...
Something I always try to keep in my mind when I read the opinions of various scribes expressed here at the Keep.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 24 Apr 2011 22:23:14 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 08:02:04
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THO,
That "silent opinion of the readers expressed through their wallets" is already a given. Publishing is a business; so that comes foremost.
When I said I care about my readers' opinions, I didn't mean I do everything they request; correct whatever it is they find inappropriate or horrendous; and maintain those they think are commendable about my books and articles. I read their emails, and sometimes listen to suggestions I deem helpful---that is, if I have the time. But in no way do I "limit" myself to their opinions. One of my published books became very controversial (yes, you guess it right, it's a gay novel) because I introduce an antagonist (a college lad) who defies almost all Christian values. The emails I got from my readers, most of whom identified themselves as parents, were "attacking" my book, saying that the subject matter was highly inappropriate, that it somehow "stained" Catholicism in the Philippines; and that it's sending a "bad message" to all the youth out there. About 90% of the emails were like that; and only 10% contained well-meant thank-you's and commendations on my bravery for bringing a very delicate subject to the fore. Ironically, the sales of my book were ---ahem--- really high; higher than the sales of my two fantasy books combined. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 16:52:32
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Well, I'm now 100 pages in and so far this novel is living up to my hopes for an Ed/Elaine joint venture. I'm loving the look at how the noble/merchant antagonism in Waterdeep plays out. The dialogue has Ed's wonderful 'Realmsian' turn of phrase but not to much (Ed uses it too much in many of his solo works). Ed's sure-footed knowledge of Waterdeep isexcellent, but unlike Ed's flightly, incoherent plots this story has the steadiness and coherence that highlight's Elaine's works.
So far count me as a fan of this one! :) |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 22:39:28
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Heh. No surprise you should say that.
Elaine did the lead plotting, and Ed was very pleased with the shape of the tale (not so much with the outcome, because the pruning made some things, such as the faith of the two characters you mentioned earlier, not get the coverage, in the end, it should have had), but as a narrative, yes, I agree that it combines the best of Ed and Elaine.
love,
THO |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 02:02:48
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I recall I finished that in less than a day. Not because I was so engrossed by it; but more like I had to get over it as quickly as I could. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 03:49:13
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Happy I could answer your question, GMW, but I'll be bowing out of this thread now. If anyone has anything further to ask or discuss, I can be found in my Q&A thread.
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2011 : 06:56:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Happy I could answer your question, GMW, but I'll be bowing out of this thread now. If anyone has anything further to ask or discuss, I can be found in my Q&A thread.
Many thanks!
I'm a bit further now and i'm loving the noble chit-chat. It's almost to George MacDonald Fraser Flashmanlevel, and that is high, high praise indeed. :) |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Question about "The City of Splendors: A Waterdeep
