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GerbenDekker
Acolyte
Netherlands
5 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 15:06:52
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I have a question pertaining to a specific piece of lore which, to my mind, seems nigh impossible to solve: when exactly or generally did the primal spirits of Toril decree that neither Astral Gods nor primordials could rule their world?
Basically, when the Astral Gods defeated the primordials during the Days of Thunder, Ao the Hidden One gave Abeir to the latter party. So the primordials were set to rule Abeir and the Astral Gods were given Toril (Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, "Sundered Abeir," p.41). However, this information was (as I interpreted it) partially revised when the PHB2 came out, stating that the primal spirits of Toril would suffer no rule of either the Astral Gods or Primordials, and by their decree both forces could only (indirectly, as I understood) influence that world (Player's Handbook 2, "The Primal Power Source," p.5). Literally, the PHB2 states that "at the dawn of time, the battle [between the Astral Gods and primordials] raged across the cosmos for uncounted centuries. ... In the last days of the war, a new force made itself known in the cosmos: the spiritual expression of the world itself. The primal spirits asserted that Toril would no longer serve as the battle grounds for the wars of primordials and Astral Gods, and banished both forces to their home planes."
So, my guess for the time that this "law" of the primal spirits was issued, would be at the end of the Shadow Epoch or right after the sundering of Abeir during the Days of Thunder. Following the statement regarding the wars took place "at the dawn of time" it's closer to the end of the Shadow Epoch, though I think the timing of the decree would better fit with the sundering of Abeir; after all, if the spirits set such a decree at the end of the Shadow Epoch, how could the Astral Gods and primordials still do combat on Toril during the Days of Thunder? Also, it could be during the time before ages were being counted, The Creation (FR Campaign Guide, p.41, 42), and that my interpretation is off. Then again, it could also be issued during the Dawn War (which is hard to find info on).
What are some of your views? In general it doesn't matter that much, but it could help me trying to figure out a bit of the cosmology of FR, and with a homebrew campaign this could be important for
(http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15164). Thanks a lot!! 
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 20:27:19
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| -Unrelated to what you're asking, but topically related, it seems very hollow for said Primal Spirits to issue a decree that neither deities nor deities who became 4e primordials could attempt to make inroads to conquer the Material Plane for themselves or their followers. More or less, they're powerful entities in the same vein as deities, Archdevils, Demon Lords, the Lady of Pain, Primus, and other vastly powerful entities like that. Without someone like Ao deciding that their wants have merit, and making an "official ruling" as Overdeity of Realmspace, that'd be like Austria telling France that they could not be involved in any way in eighteenth century Belgian politics- Yeah? And what are you going to do about it? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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GerbenDekker
Acolyte
Netherlands
5 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 20:58:09
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I think I feel what you're saying, and it is also one of the reasons I think this law of sorts was set by the primal spirits only after the sundering of Abeir; there are no stated consequences for Astral Gods OR primordials that the primal spirits could actually enforce should they not comply. And since no war has happened between those two groups since Abeir was sundered, the setting of the primal spirits' rules would fall into place somwhere around that time.
The lack of consequences for breaking these "rules of the universe" is one of the things I missed in the description of the Primal power source. However, it is canon ever since PHB2 was released, and I don't really feel like altering it for homebrew purposes, as it would seem to me that it'd mean altering the basic concept/lore of an entire power source.
Also, following your and above logic; if the primal spirits are indeed powerful enough to to set such rules on their own without any involvement of beings such as Ao, how powerful are they then? It means they're at least equally powerful to Ao, or certainly where the universal laws of Toril are concerned. From what I understand from the rest of the lore on primal spirits, I think you're right though, and they are around equal in power to the (higher) beings you mentioned. Yet another flaw of the 4e "loremasters" if you ask me.
To be honest, this is the first time I'm actually confronted with such abscence of decent background lore in 4e and the "hollowness" that results from it, but I fear I might discover more of that in the not so far away future after this. A bit disappointing, really. |
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Primal spirits: old school or ancient school?
