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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2011 :  00:58:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
While doing some research for a current project, I needed to know what years certain things happened on Oerth (GH) in the FR calender, so I consulted several Wiki pages, and two chronologies, including Bryan James own Chronology of the Primes.

I hadn't realized this before, but the Spellplague took place at the same time as Die Vecna, Die!. Here is a quote from Wikipedia, taken (presumably) directly from the end of the product -
quote:
"Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again."


I don't know about the rest of you, but I find the timing extremely interesting. Whereas before I was looking at it funny and thinking "why did an event on Toril effect everything, everywhere?", I now realize that perhaps other major WSE's were taking place across the cosmos, and the end result was something... profound.

Ergo, the Spellplague was just one 'wave' in a multi-spheric storm.

Note that Bruce Cordell was one of the designers of that product, as well as one of the key people involved with the 4e Realms (and I'm not putting any kind of 'dark conspiracy' spin on that - I just find it interesting, is all). That product - DV,D! - was designed to usher-in the changes between 2e and 3e Greyhawk, and I find it kinda cool (in weird way) that the events taking place at the same time (in the D&D universe) also explain the changes between 3e and 4e in FR.

So while GH was moving from 2e to 3e (in D&D's timeline), FR was moving from 3e to 4e.

I figure, by the time the planer-shockwaves hit Dragonlance we should be in 5e; are we ready for Die Takhisis, Die!?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2011 06:34:33

The Sage
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Except that, Takhisis is ALREADY dead.

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Ayrik
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Canada
6164 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2011 :  05:22:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Arik

I have recently examined a vast number of other D&D chronology attempts [mostly at www.planewalker.com], most of which are incomplete, inaccurate, poorly researched, unique homebrew, or rampantly speculative.

However, A Temporal Chronology of the Primes (by Brian James), Forgotten Realms Timeline (by Krashos and others), A Spelljammer Timeline - revised (by GMWestermeyer), and - just for completeness - Known Chronological Listing of Realms Novels (by Boyd, Greenwood, Schend, and "The Candlekeep Monks") are all very well done and might assist ye in many projects. I suspect the first and last are likely used as the primary "official" sources for Wizbro's D&D designers and authors.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Apr 2011 05:24:09
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2011 :  05:41:03  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Abyssal Plague...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2011 :  06:38:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My thoughts exactly, Brim. Die Vecna, Die! took place from 1381-1386 DR, which is precisely when the events leading up to the death of Mystra, and then the spellplague, took place (including a wee bit of the aftermath).

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Except that, Takhisis is ALREADY dead.
So is Vecna.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2011 :  07:15:05  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just cause someone is dead doesn't mean they cant die again!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2011 :  19:04:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All things considered, I've decided - being a fan of the mega-setting that IS D&D - that I will be buying and following the storyline of the Abyssal Plague. A good, multi-spheric romp is just the thing, I think, to get things flowing smoothly again.


Cheers --- Markustay

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Kerryth Silver
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2011 :  23:35:32  Show Profile Send Kerryth Silver a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I hadn't realized this before, but the Spellplague took place at the same time as [i]Die Vecna, Die!



An interesting bit of speculation, but probably incorrect. We know from the "Wizards Three" articles by Ed Greenwood that 1361DR coincides with 581CY. Thus; "Die, Vecna, Die!", which takes place in 591CY, corresponds with 1371DR. Or, the conversion from 2e to 3e.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2011 :  08:24:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe Brian R. James' Temporal chronology of the Primes was based upon several cross-setting events (like the Cloakmaster cycle).

As has been pointed out before, Wizards traveling through the planes to other prime worlds don't necessarily arrive at times 'current' in their respective spheres.

For instance, if the 4e Elminster went to go visit Ed, he'd probably wind-up a short time after his last visit, rather then a century later, when there would be no 'Ed' to speak to (and feed him hotdogs and other junk-foods). The wizard's three could be arriving from completely different periods in time.

According to Brian's timeline (which never failed me before), you simply add 797 to the CY-GH calender to get the FR-DR calender date.

Does anyone know how to report bad wiki info? Some moron included a 'personal story' about his gaming group in the Vecna entry {Head of Vecna} - that's precisely the kind of crap that makes Wiki useless half the time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Thieran
Learned Scribe

Germany
292 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2011 :  13:46:48  Show Profile Send Thieran a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I still find it a bit hard to believe (suspend my disbelief) that time passes at the same rate on different Primes/that they share the exact astronomical conditions, which is after all the basis of any such easy conversion as adding a number; but I guess I have to live with that. See the discussion in this scroll: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12913
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29791 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2011 :  18:19:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I believe Brian R. James' Temporal chronology of the Primes was based upon several cross-setting events (like the Cloakmaster cycle).


It was, but I've found at least one discrepancy on that list. TSR actually provided some dates for syncing events, and Brian's chronology uses different dates.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31687 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  01:39:55  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I believe Brian R. James' Temporal chronology of the Primes was based upon several cross-setting events (like the Cloakmaster cycle).


It was, but I've found at least one discrepancy on that list. TSR actually provided some dates for syncing events, and Brian's chronology uses different dates.

Indeed. As I recall, Brian, in a past discussion about that particular chronology, said something about devising a way of correlating inconsistent temporal references, which unfortunately led to a number of minor discrepancies.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  22:16:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as we all know, its not very easy to get ALL lore to 'line-up' precisely, even within a single setting, so I am still amazed by the bang-up job he did with that chronology.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Alisttair
Great Reader

Canada
3053 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2011 :  12:01:17  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2011 :  18:45:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OH... and obviously the guys at WotC were very impressed with his timelines as well.

If they did have some 'deeper, nefarious scheme' behind some of the changes (like the new cross-setting novel series), wouldn't they want to put out a tome that further substantiates some of what they are planning? It would seem to me, that if Brian's timeline(s) backed-up some of what they had been considering, then we can see why - at the tail-end of 3e with 4e well on it's way - they would rush the publication of Brian's work to help validate his other work (and whatever plans they may have had in the process).

Or, conversely, it may have just been something they themselves only just noticed (as I did), and decided to 'run with' for a cross-over.

But I do find the 1385 date suspiciously coincidental.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2012 :  03:27:36  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I hadn't realized this before, but the Spellplague took place at the same time as Die Vecna, Die!. Here is a quote from Wikipedia, taken (presumably) directly from the end of the product -
quote:
"Even with Vecna's removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna's time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased. Some Outer Planes drift off and are forever lost, others collide and merge, while at least one Inner Plane runs "aground" on a distant world of the Prime. Moreover, the very nature of the Prime Material Plane itself is altered. Half-worlds like those attached to Tovag Baragu multiply a millionfold, taking on parallel realism in what was before a unified Prime Material Plane. The concept of alternate dimensions rears its metaphorical head, but doesn't yet solidify, and perhaps it never will. New realms, both near and far, are revealed and realms never previously imagined make themselves known. Entities long thought lost emerge once more, while other creatures, both great and small, are inexplicably eradicated. Some common spells begin to work differently. The changes do not occur immediately, but instead are revealed during the subsequent months. However, one thing remains clear: Nothing will ever be the same again."



(Bold emphasis mine) It seems that we've just established canonical precedent for parallel worlds, and therefore a 5e Realms canon that evades the Spellplague without evading it on all possible Torils. Just thought I'd point that out.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I don't know about the rest of you, but I find the timing extremely interesting. Whereas before I was looking at it funny and thinking "why did an event on Toril effect everything, everywhere?", I now realize that perhaps other major WSE's were taking place across the cosmos, and the end result was something... profound.

Ergo, the Spellplague was just one 'wave' in a multi-spheric storm.

Note that Bruce Cordell was one of the designers of that product, as well as one of the key people involved with the 4e Realms (and I'm not putting any kind of 'dark conspiracy' spin on that - I just find it interesting, is all). That product - DV,D! - was designed to usher-in the changes between 2e and 3e Greyhawk, and I find it kinda cool (in weird way) that the events taking place at the same time (in the D&D universe) also explain the changes between 3e and 4e in FR.

So while GH was moving from 2e to 3e (in D&D's timeline), FR was moving from 3e to 4e.

I figure, by the time the planer-shockwaves hit Dragonlance we should be in 5e; are we ready for Die Takhisis, Die!?



So, WotC: When is this title coming out?

Still, I find this very interesting in the context of the new edition announcement and what little is known about the Realms in 5E. Hopefully WotC can give us enough information to put SOME of the speculation to rest long before the 5E Realms sees print.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13386 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2012 :  20:30:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmph

So I was talking about 5e a year ago, eh?

LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2012 :  03:34:54  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmph

So I was talking about 5e a year ago, eh?

LOL



It's almost enough to make other scribes ask what your secret is, Mark...

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2880 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2012 :  05:22:57  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

(Bold emphasis mine) It seems that we've just established canonical precedent for parallel worlds, and therefore a 5e Realms canon that evades the Spellplague without evading it on all possible Torils. Just thought I'd point that out.


-The Forgotten Realms specifically already has canonical alternate dimensions. Darkvision's plotline is heavily involved with a parallel dimension. The details of it is fuzzy since it's been a while, but the twin sister that Ususi was regularly dreaming of and coming into contact with wasn't a twin sister, but was actually Ususi from a parallel dimension, who was influencing Ususi from the canonical Forgotten Realms to stop Pandorym, because Pandorym ravaged the world in the parallel dimension that parallel dimension Ususi came from.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2012 :  21:10:14  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

(Bold emphasis mine) It seems that we've just established canonical precedent for parallel worlds, and therefore a 5e Realms canon that evades the Spellplague without evading it on all possible Torils. Just thought I'd point that out.


-The Forgotten Realms specifically already has canonical alternate dimensions. Darkvision's plotline is heavily involved with a parallel dimension. The details of it is fuzzy since it's been a while, but the twin sister that Ususi was regularly dreaming of and coming into contact with wasn't a twin sister, but was actually Ususi from a parallel dimension, who was influencing Ususi from the canonical Forgotten Realms to stop Pandorym, because Pandorym ravaged the world in the parallel dimension that parallel dimension Ususi came from.


Many thanks, LK! I've fallen behind on the FR novels, and have more or less given up on catching up on anyone except Ed, Erik, and Paul... although if Elaine and/or Steven Schend were to return to FR novel writing, I'd probably have to make time for them, too...

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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