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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  17:20:44  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

No offense, but "actual, objective truth" is often difficult to determine in the real world. Not only is this a fictional setting, it's a setting where the lead creator has specifically said not to trust anything printed as unquestionable truth.


-That said, if we're to believe it a real world somewhere out there in the universe, like Earth, a singular event cannot happen at the same moment in two different ways. Either I just typed this, or I didn't. Either I just got elected President of the United States, or I didn't. On events happening, and their outcomes, we can be told blatant lies, exaggerations, and whatever else, but outside all of the different versions of the truth, there exists the actual truth, what actually happened. The prosecutor is saying that there is evidence that shows that Criminal X killed someone, and provides his/her version of the facts in relation to events that took place to back this claim up. The defense attorney is saying that there is evidence that Criminal X did not kill someone, and provides his/her version of the facts in relation to events that took place to back this claim up. Both cannot be correct- Criminal X cannot have killed someone and not killed someone at the same time. The objective truth, the actual replay of events uncluttered by biases if watched on a magical television set that could rewind and replay history, is either that he did, or did not.

-If we have a case where, via the line of transmission, the objective truth- how the event actually went down in actuality, viewed through that magic television set that rewinds and replays history- has been twisted into something that is not the actual truth, there's no reason to believe that the same thing couldn't, or even hasn't already happened, elsewhere in Realmslore, since it all comes through the same basic line of transmission (if we're to believe the hokey story). If the story of that we believe to be how Karsus' Foley went down, in actuality, is really something of a tall-tale based on the actual facts of the event, what is to stop us from doubting the veracity of any other event we've told has happened? Did the Crown Wars actually happen, or is the general narrative that we have actually a manifestation of underlying resentment and bias by Wood Elves towards their "more magically inclined" Sun and Moon Elf cousins in physical print form? Did the Dragon Baronies actually exist, or are the myths of Humans mythologizing and romanticizing Dragons? Did Myth Drannor actually exist as an open society, or is anything concerning the Opening of Myth Drannor simply idealistic fantasy taken life through repetitive retelling?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  17:50:35  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message
Let me offer my humblest and deepest apologies. Canon lore is all perfect and totally incontrovertible, there is no questioning it because it's all fact and the truest of true truth. Creativity be damned, alternate ideas for gaming hooks be damned, the holy canon is my only truth.

How could I have ever been so wrong? I have seen the light and the error of my ways, and I repent a thousand times!


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  18:30:06  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Let me offer my humblest and deepest apologies. Canon lore is all perfect and totally incontrovertible, there is no questioning it because it's all fact and the truest of true truth. Creativity be damned, alternate ideas for gaming hooks be damned, the holy canon is my only truth.

How could I have ever been so wrong? I have seen the light and the error of my ways, and I repent a thousand times!





You are forgiven.
On a serious note, some things should not be subject to unexplained change. Some facts/rules should be fundamental to any world setting, else all is chaos. And as for Ed saying his info comes from Elminster, that's just a cop-out, allowing wotc to explain away mistakes and contradictions to canon.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  18:56:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Let me offer my humblest and deepest apologies. Canon lore is all perfect and totally incontrovertible, there is no questioning it because it's all fact and the truest of true truth. Creativity be damned, alternate ideas for gaming hooks be damned, the holy canon is my only truth.

How could I have ever been so wrong? I have seen the light and the error of my ways, and I repent a thousand times!





That's not what the argument was and you know it. I am happy to play in any areas where there is wiggle room, like my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise. Where I draw the line, however, is trying to introduce wiggle room into a spot where it does not exist.

If every bit of published material says that Bahb the fighter is a human, then it's certain that he's a human. There's no wiggle room. If half of the sources say he's a human, half say he's a half-elf, and one lone source indicates he's some sort of shapeshifter, then we've got wiggle room to play with.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jun 2011 18:57:03
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  19:34:33  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Let me offer my humblest and deepest apologies. Canon lore is all perfect and totally incontrovertible, there is no questioning it because it's all fact and the truest of true truth. Creativity be damned, alternate ideas for gaming hooks be damned, the holy canon is my only truth.

How could I have ever been so wrong? I have seen the light and the error of my ways, and I repent a thousand times!





-Instead of addressing a separate strawman, in a passive-aggressive manner, why not address the specific matter-at-hand? The question is, if we have a singular instance where the information we have been told is the truth is somehow "proven" to be wrong (however that happens), then any information that we have can be discounted as possibly not being the truth- Yes or no?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Jun 2011 19:37:17
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  19:37:53  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's not what the argument was and you know it. I am happy to play in any areas where there is wiggle room, like my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise. Where I draw the line, however, is trying to introduce wiggle room into a spot where it does not exist.

If every bit of published material says that Bahb the fighter is a human, then it's certain that he's a human. There's no wiggle room. If half of the sources say he's a human, half say he's a half-elf, and one lone source indicates he's some sort of shapeshifter, then we've got wiggle room to play with.


Again let me offer my deepest apologies. Clearly, my musings have all been utterly faulty, valueless and clearly without any merit whatsoever. In future, I will humbly defer to your personal wisdom as to whether something has "wiggle room" or not, and I will not presume to question your authority on such matters.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  19:43:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's not what the argument was and you know it. I am happy to play in any areas where there is wiggle room, like my theory that Bane 2.0 is really Xvim in disguise. Where I draw the line, however, is trying to introduce wiggle room into a spot where it does not exist.

If every bit of published material says that Bahb the fighter is a human, then it's certain that he's a human. There's no wiggle room. If half of the sources say he's a human, half say he's a half-elf, and one lone source indicates he's some sort of shapeshifter, then we've got wiggle room to play with.


Again let me offer my deepest apologies. Clearly, my musings have all been utterly faulty, valueless and clearly without any merit whatsoever. In future, I will humbly defer to your personal wisdom as to whether something has "wiggle room" or not, and I will not presume to question your authority on such matters.





How about this -- why don't you tell me where the wiggle room in this instance is, and then explain how this wiggle room does not exist in all other cases where there is zero indication that event X did not proceed as described?


Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  20:03:52  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How about this -- why don't you tell me where the wiggle room in this instance is, and then explain how this wiggle room does not exist in all other cases where there is zero indication that event X did not proceed as described?


Because you've already flatly stated that there is no wiggle room with respect to the Karsus myth, that it's all perfectly clear in canon and cannot be questioned. And really, who am I to question canon?


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  20:17:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How about this -- why don't you tell me where the wiggle room in this instance is, and then explain how this wiggle room does not exist in all other cases where there is zero indication that event X did not proceed as described?


Because you've already flatly stated that there is no wiggle room with respect to the Karsus myth, that it's all perfectly clear in canon and cannot be questioned. And really, who am I to question canon?





Again, tell me where this wiggle room is. You're so insistent that there is reason to doubt the story. Prove it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  20:22:11  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Again, tell me where this wiggle room is. You're so insistent that there is reason to doubt the story. Prove it.


Nope, you were perfectly right and I was utterly wrong.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  20:42:10  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message
Wow, this has turned into a juvenile topic.


For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  21:17:58  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Wow, this has turned into a juvenile topic.


-Seriously. To get things back to a semblance of maturity, I'll address Wooley's "wiggle room", in this particular story.

-As I mentioned a few times now, we know that the Church of Mystra and Azuth are the primary promulgators of the story as we understand it (Karsus researches spell, casts spell and targets Mystryl, Mystryl sacrifices herself to save the Weave because Karsus can't administer it like she can). They do so to stress the folly of hubris, vanity, all of that, Mystryl's heroic self-sacrifice to preserve magic, and the other details of the story we're familiar with. If the Churches of Mystra and/or Azuth had something to hide- not saying that they necessarily do- regarding the event, they could very well have done so by manipulating which facts they highlight, and which facts they gloss over, or even disregard completely. Regarding the source material that we have, the account of Karsus and Karsus' Folly primarily come from Netheril: Empire of Magic. Netheril: Empire of Magic was narrated by Larloch, a servant of Mystra (in his own way), and a possibly compromised, biased source of information. If there were details that were embarrassing to Mystra herself, or her church, in whatever way, Larloch, being in a special relationship with her, could have also glossed over or disregarded them. Not saying that he did, necessarily, and that the account that of Karsus' Folly that he gives, that other sources draw from, is incorrect, but there is certainly reason to believe that he could have.

-Can the same be said for any event? Yes. Like I said in an earlier post, the Crown Wars might not actually happened, and the general narrative that we have might actually be a manifestation of underlying resentment and bias by Wood Elves towards their "more magically inclined" Sun and Moon Elf cousins. The Dragon Baronies might not have actually existed, and instead are artificial constructs mythologizing and romanticizing Dragons. What is present in the story of Karsus' Folly, that is not necessarily present in those other things, is at least one party that is a primary source of information on the matter, and might partially be biased because of their role in those events, their affiliation, and so on. That is where the wiggle room might exist.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 Jun 2011 21:22:26
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2011 :  21:26:46  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message
I think some on here take this all a bit too seriously
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2011 :  01:47:22  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message
And I think it's time for a break. This scroll has been dancing around the same part of the debate now for several days, without much resolution/addition to the actual discussion.

Thus...

*Casts Temporary Seal Scroll*

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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