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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 02:06:24
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| Elminster says to Dalamar in Meeting of the Three that the Simbul could best any two of Dalamar/Elminster/Mordenkainen in magical combat; and in all the 2nd edition source books I have the Simbul is listed at higher level than Elminster (usually 1 level higher). She's killed legions of red wizards single handedly. That's what I was going by in saying she's slightly stronger than him in power. Aside from that she rescued him in Hell and unlike the other wizards, is still going in the lore and may become more powerful now that Mystra has returned in Elminster Must Die. So I guess we'll see. But you're not a jerk. :) |
Edited by - Seravin on 03 Jun 2011 02:06:59 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 02:13:54
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I think it has been clearly established that the Simbul is more powerful than Elminster. Even Ed said so himself. But she's not the most powerful. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 02:18:17
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ohhh... realy.. I would so like to read that. Because she might be a better tactisian and better at spell battles... but im prette sure in raw power/levels she is less powerul than Elminster!
But as ive said. I would like to read the phrase where it says that Simbul is more powerful than El!
Ohh yeah and sorry for posting Sammaster as more powerful than Simbul... he is ofc the weakest of the list and generally a weak spellcaster IMHO! |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 03 Jun 2011 02:20:03 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 02:29:39
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In the old Grey Box set (1st edition) El is listed as level 26 and The Simbul is level 27. In the Heroe's Lorebook (2nd edition) El is listed as level 29, The Simbul is level 30. Maybe in 3rd edition he surpassed her? I don't collect 3rd edition game stats, I just know the 2nd edition stuff has her higher level and him being quoted as saying she could take him and another arch mage in spell battle(Ed wrote that scene, it's an excerpt in the Seven Sisters under the Simbul's section).
But it's silly to argue about this...all those listed are SUPER powerful and any one of them could beat any other one on one...would depend on luck (or whoever is writing the story!)
Hehe so fun to have a place where people care about this sort of thing. My pile of FR sourcebooks/novels has a purpose other than me reading it over and over.... |
Edited by - Seravin on 03 Jun 2011 02:31:20 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 02:55:11
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Nicolai,
I think he mentioned it in a reply to my question concerning Telamont and the Simbul. I'll try to find it later...(Hopefully, THO would chime in...I'm pretty sure she remembers it well.) |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Jun 2011 02:59:52 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 12:00:09
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Well I must then stand corrected about the Simbul... I have just also read somewhere that Elminster was the first of Mystra's official chosen, and also the most powerful.
But if im indeed wrong... |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 14:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
ohhh... realy.. I would so like to read that. Because she might be a better tactisian and better at spell battles... but im prette sure in raw power/levels she is less powerul than Elminster!
But as ive said. I would like to read the phrase where it says that Simbul is more powerful than El!
Ohh yeah and sorry for posting Sammaster as more powerful than Simbul... he is ofc the weakest of the list and generally a weak spellcaster IMHO!
In pure combat with multiple foes, the Simbul has so many of those "Simbul"s quickened spell matrix" and other crafted spells that she can launch many lower level spells at will instead of through action. Which is why she is so devastating to legions of weaker red wizards.
At no point do I recall Ed saying the Simbul is more powerful. In his books thus far, the only time I ever recall it coming up was in spellfire. The Simbul admitted to Elminster if they fought she knew she would lose, and Elminster agreed. Then she took off her clothes and they made whoopie. I still love the story of how they met. El going to kill her because he believes her to be a rogue wizard killing others who use the art, but stuttering when he realizes she can also use silverfire and thus, must serve the lady.
Regarding sourcebooks, in the most recent write up of the two(Epic level Handbook), Elminster was ranked Fighter1, Rogue 2, Cleric 3, Wizard 24, Archmage 5, CR39, while the Simbul was ranked Sorceress 20, Archmage 2, Wizard 10, CR36
If you can link me to a quote from Ed saying otherwise, I will stand corrected. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 03 Jun 2011 14:48:32 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2011 : 15:16:40
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But can we all agree that this poll must have Azuth as number 1? I remember something about Ed mentioning that Srinshee was the most skilles spellcaster in fearun, and thus not being a god, like azuth, she most be below him.
Im a totally wrong here? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 01:26:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But can we all agree that this poll must have Azuth as number 1?
Nope 
Karsus wins for me. Azuth only (ha) beat a demi-god and a many of the others are Chosen of at least one god (giving them access to divine help which doesn't count in my book). Karsus's Avatar spell (not to mention his flying city and other wonders) let him take over the power of ANY god. He may have been a rubbish god of magic but that one spell alone seals his victory for me. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 02:47:25
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Does magical skill equate to magical power?
Azuth ws know as the Lord of SPells while Mystra is the goddess of magic.
When I think of Elminster and Simbul I think of raw magic.. when I think of Srrinshee , Karsus , and Azuth I think of uber spellcasting ability... |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 03:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Does magical skill equate to magical power?
Azuth ws know as the Lord of SPells while Mystra is the goddess of magic.
When I think of Elminster and Simbul I think of raw magic.. when I think of Srrinshee , Karsus , and Azuth I think of uber spellcasting ability...
I think at these epic levels all of them have power/casting ability in spades. The only difference is how they use these abilities, i.e the simbul is always blasting things rather than creating peaceful magic. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 03:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Does magical skill equate to magical power?
-If you want it to. 
-You can decide whatever factors are important when deciding who you personally think is the best/greatest/most awesome at X. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 15:41:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Does magical skill equate to magical power?
-If you want it to.
-You can decide whatever factors are important when deciding who you personally think is the best/greatest/most awesome at X.
True , but there is reason Azuth became the lord of spells and not the lord of magic. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 23:27:57
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| I'd certainly agree to Azuth. He's the only one of those on the list who actually SUCCEEDED at becoming a god- and not because of one spell, but because he was deemed WORTHY of it after having cast several spells that caught the Lady's notice! I'd say that beats out Karsus's one and only ATTEPMT to achieve divinity hands down. Where Karsus tried and failed to achieve it( I mean, he died, after all) Azuth, through his own ingenuity and skill, was ADMITTED into the pantheon. Tells me he's the better man for the job. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 04:03:38
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That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 04:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally.
Disagree. He couldn't hack being a god, regardless of whose portfolio he stole. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 04:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'd certainly agree to Azuth. He's the only one of those on the list who actually SUCCEEDED at becoming a god- and not because of one spell, but because he was deemed WORTHY of it after having cast several spells that caught the Lady's notice! I'd say that beats out Karsus's one and only ATTEPMT to achieve divinity hands down. Where Karsus tried and failed to achieve it( I mean, he died, after all) Azuth, through his own ingenuity and skill, was ADMITTED into the pantheon. Tells me he's the better man for the job.
I probably agree however, just to play devil's advocate. Would you hire someone who was a direct threat to your position? Perhaps Karsus fits that bill.
I'm still waiting on Novel that details Azuth's adventures and ascendancy. Let Scott De Bie , Rich Baker, or someone on that level author it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 06:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally.
Disagree. He couldn't hack being a god, regardless of whose portfolio he stole.
I'm more inclined to assume that it would also depend on his overall "deity rank," rather than just the portfolio/s he might have seized. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 06:16:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally.
Disagree. He couldn't hack being a god, regardless of whose portfolio he stole.
We can't be certain of that because he hadn't tried it in the first place. I can't be certain that he would succeed, either. But I leave the possibility there. And it's even more probable if he had set his eyes on a lesser deity. (From a lowly god, he could scheme to be one of the greater deities. That's something not unheard of. Lloth is a glaring example.) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 17:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'd certainly agree to Azuth. He's the only one of those on the list who actually SUCCEEDED at becoming a god- and not because of one spell, but because he was deemed WORTHY of it after having cast several spells that caught the Lady's notice! I'd say that beats out Karsus's one and only ATTEPMT to achieve divinity hands down. Where Karsus tried and failed to achieve it( I mean, he died, after all) Azuth, through his own ingenuity and skill, was ADMITTED into the pantheon. Tells me he's the better man for the job.
-Karsus' Avatar did not fail. It worked as planned, and he became deity of magic concurrently with Mystryl. When she killed herself, Karsus also perished, since the two were linked. Had she not done something stupid like that, however, Karsus would not have died, and would have remained deity of magic for the duration of the spell. And then, being deity of magic, presumably, he could have altered the dweomer to make it more permanent.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Disagree. He couldn't hack being a god, regardless of whose portfolio he stole.
-This is untrue. Mystryl killed herself to kill Karsus because she did not believe he could handle the constant rigors of repairing the Weave and such that the deity of magic had to do. Whether or not he could of is up for debate. We certainly have no reason to think he wouldn't have been able to. That said, that was her main worry, and her primary motivation for acting- she didn't want the Weave to get torn to metaphorical shreds. A deity who does not have so much "housekeeping" in his/her/its job duties- Targus, the Netherese deity of battle and war, for example- he has no "excuses" for killing himself, to kill Karsus, on the concept that if he, himself, didn't have control over war and battle, war and battle would cease to exist, and life on Faerūn would be radically altered. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Jun 2011 17:28:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 18:19:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-This is untrue. Mystryl killed herself to kill Karsus because she did not believe he could handle the constant rigors of repairing the Weave and such that the deity of magic had to do. Whether or not he could of is up for debate. We certainly have no reason to think he wouldn't have been able to. That said, that was her main worry, and her primary motivation for acting- she didn't want the Weave to get torn to metaphorical shreds. A deity who does not have so much "housekeeping" in his/her/its job duties- Targus, the Netherese deity of battle and war, for example- he has no "excuses" for killing himself, to kill Karsus, on the concept that if he, himself, didn't have control over war and battle, war and battle would cease to exist, and life on Faerūn would be radically altered.
Nope. It's canon that he could not do it. That was why Mystryl had to act to save the Weave. And Karsus himself knew this, after he cast the spell.
This is all spelled out in his entry in Powers & Pantheons. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 22:26:19
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-And, we know from Magic of Faerūn that the churches of Azuth and Mystra are the primary prulmugators of the story of Karsus: of course they're going to spin things as positivley as possible.
-As a mortal, Karsus' mind wouldn't be able to comprehend his duties, sure. His mind was in the process of "downloading" Mystryl's knowledge and expertise. With that, he'd be able to "control" and maintain the Weave- just like Midnight-Mystra has, with the mortal mind of Midnight fully bonding with the essence of Mystra.
-I'm posting on my phone, so please excuse spelling errors and such. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 00:27:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-And, we know from Magic of Faerūn that the churches of Azuth and Mystra are the primary prulmugators of the story of Karsus: of course they're going to spin things as positivley as possible.
-As a mortal, Karsus' mind wouldn't be able to comprehend his duties, sure. His mind was in the process of "downloading" Mystryl's knowledge and expertise. With that, he'd be able to "control" and maintain the Weave- just like Midnight-Mystra has, with the mortal mind of Midnight fully bonding with the essence of Mystra.
-I'm posting on my phone, so please excuse spelling errors and such.
I'm going with what is written in canon, and that's that Karsus could not handle it and realized that too late.
And it says nothing about him downloading Mystryl's knowledge and expertise. If Mystra 1.0 couldn't pass that on to Mystra 2.0, then how could someone steal if from Mystryl? |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 01:24:09
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Whether Karsus could handle being a god is a completely mute point. The question is who was the greatest mage. Karsus became the ruddy GOD OF MAGIC with ONE spell!! How many others (including Azuth) have spent years and years trying to find a way to ascend? The sheer brilliance of that one spell cannot be underestimated. Azuth was coddled and coached into his new found godhood by his then lover Mystra, so of course things came easier to him. Also being the greater god of magic must be infinitely harder than Azuths lowly portfolio was.
Azuth is just a lowly pretender to the throne, a distant runner up at best.
All hail Lord Karsus!! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 02:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it says nothing about him downloading Mystryl's knowledge and expertise. If Mystra 1.0 couldn't pass that on to Mystra 2.0, then how could someone steal if from Mystryl?
Indeed. I imagine learning Mystra's mysteries would've taken Midnight centuries. The Mystryl-to-Karsus transition likely would have functioned in much the same way. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 02:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Whether Karsus could handle being a god is a completely mute point. The question is who was the greatest mage. Karsus became the ruddy GOD OF MAGIC with ONE spell!! How many others (including Azuth) have spent years and years trying to find a way to ascend? The sheer brilliance of that one spell cannot be underestimated. Azuth was coddled and coached into his new found godhood by his then lover Mystra, so of course things came easier to him. Also being the greater god of magic must be infinitely harder than Azuths lowly portfolio was.
Azuth is just a lowly pretender to the throne, a distant runner up at best.
All hail Lord Karsus!!
So which is better -- holding an awful lot of power for a few seconds, destroying yourself and everything you hold dear in the process, or holding slightly less power for centuries, without destroying anything? I know which one I'd choose... |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 04:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm going with what is written in canon, and that's that Karsus could not handle it and realized that too late.
-It's your prerogative to interpret things as you like. I will note, however, that Powers and Pantheons says nothing of Karsus not being able to "handle" the burden, other than a vague "being ill equipped" the moment the spell began taking effect, which can be interpreted as a lot of variables- not being fully deity of magic at the moment, with Mystryl still existing concurrently, for one. Specifically, in the blink of an eye, or however long it would be to us mortals, with deities not being constrained by such things to the degree that we are, Mystryl would not have been able to tend to the Weave's constant repairs, and Karsus would not yet be fully invested with divine energy to even begin to tackle doing so. And, in that flash of a moment, blink of an eye, the Weave could unravel, and magic would have went kaput (included the spell affecting both Karsus and Mystryl).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And it says nothing about him downloading Mystryl's knowledge and expertise. If Mystra 1.0 couldn't pass that on to Mystra 2.0, then how could someone steal if from Mystryl?
-Mystra 1.0 passed on that knowledge to Midnight/Mystra when the two bonded, otherwise the same exact scenario would have happened- The Weave, with Midnight/Mystra, unable to constantly make the needed repairs to the Weave (certainly not as prolific as they were when Netheril existed, and the Phaerimm and them were going at it full force, but existent nonetheless, when every spellcaster uses magic), would have collapsed. Midnight did not inherent all of her predecessor's wisdom and expertise, but the ability to maintain the Weave, we've seen it in action, whether it be the Weave not collapsing immediately upon her apotheosis, Mystra having her clergy and Chosen repairing Wild and Dead Magic Zones in the wake of the Time of Troubles and beyond, and so on.
-I am contending that if Karsus' spell hadn't ended when Mystryl sacrificed herself, and he had more fully bonded to her, he, too, would have been privy to that knowledge, and could have repaired and modified the Weave, like she did. Of course, the Weave may or may not have fully frayed if that transitory blink of an eye passed where Karsus fully assumed the mantle of deity of magic and the duties that came with it from Mystryl.
-But, in a way, this gets back to the original point that was made by you, that he wouldn't have been able to handle being a deity, regardless of what deity he targeted, and what portfolios he assumed. It's pretty implicit that it was the constant repairs to the Weave that the deity of magic always had to be minding was Karsus' downfall, not his mind not being able to fathom the "expanded cosmos", as a deity might, or whatever else. As I said, if he picked a deity like Targus, who did not have to constantly divert his attention to maintaining some kind of 'violence matrix', it is unlikely that there would have been any problems like what happened with him and Mystryl. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Jun 2011 04:50:14 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 08:13:58
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Why do Torilians call it Karsus's Folly instead of Karsus's Greatest Feat? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 08:31:27
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His body swelled with the sudden influx of godly power, and
his mind filled with unimaginable knowledge. Karsus instantly
realized the horrible mistake he had made: He stole the power
from the one god he shouldnt have. Mystryls position called for
one of the aspects of her psyche to constantly rework the weave
of magicthe weave that Netheril and its glut of magic and the
phaerimm with their magic drain spells constantly threatened to
unravel. When Mystryl lost her ability to keep the weave of essential
magic (magic in its purest unschooled and unfielded form)
intact, the inundation of magic surged and fluctuated, and the
effects of all things magical doubled for a timea short time.
Mystryl sacrificed herself to save the weave before the damage
became irreparable. This broke Karsuss link to her magic and
obstructed the weave, causing all magic to briefly cease functioning.
Without the infusion of magic, the floating cities of
Netheril fell, and Karsus was instantly slain. His bloated body petrified
and toppled from the high plateau above his floating city
and plummeted to earth. As his body fell, his stony eyes, still
shimmering with the last glint of godly omniscience, caught a
glimpse of the cities of Netheril smashing to the ground, killing all
their inhabitants. His heart brokegreed for the power of the
deities themselves caused the destruction of his home, his family,
his friends, and his people.
Well if you say that karsus became a god in an instant, then you do not calculate the fact that he spent well over a decade researching this spell. Karsus spent well over a decade researching this spell.
It was so complex that he had to use a stone-filled gizzard of a gold dragon and part of the epidermis of the pituitary gland of the tarrasque just to enchant one of the material
components of the spell.
So if it took him 15 years to get there, and then he still had made a mistake... how does that make him the most powerful. If he had been SO powerful then i sure he would have accended before hand...
By the way... all this is from Netheril boxesd set |
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Who Greatest Mage who ever lived
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