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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2011 :  02:39:41  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313

I am more inclined to go with Queen Amlaruil Moonflower. After all, besides the Simbul, who else had access to High Magic?



Bunches and bunches of elven high mages.



And Khelben!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2011 :  01:51:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313

I am more inclined to go with Queen Amlaruil Moonflower. After all, besides the Simbul, who else had access to High Magic?



The Srinshee. And what Wooly said, though my descriptions of them would be more colorful than "bunches".

----

Ed said among humans, the mortal Azuth was the greatest. But we don't have to agree with Ed, do we?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 27 May 2011 11:42:36
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2011 :  04:24:46  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message
The Simbul is slightly stronger than Elminster by my take. By I think Kimmuriel could take her down. Psionics > Magic.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2011 :  04:49:16  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I voted for the Srinshee. Why? She was Elminster's MENTOR, for starters. That gal's FORGOTTEN more about magic than many mages will learn in a hundred lifetimes! And she's done some pretty amazing things with her power- like keeping both herself and El alive after being blasted with magic that SHOULD have reduced half of Myth Drannor to dust. Though it was a toss-up between her and El himself. Not only has he hurled spells with the best of them, but he's managed to save a goddess of magic from death (by holding a major part of her essence during the ToT), and has almost single-handedly kept Cormyr and the Dales "safe" for centuries. Not to mention his relationships to several other Chosen.... Other mages may have performed loftier feats of magic, but how many of them have been LOVED by Mystra herself? Nope, can't think of any.... (Sammaster doesn't count- his relationship with her was rather one-sided...)

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1079 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  01:49:30  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message
First of all I just want to say that I have chosen not to vote at this moment. The reason for this i s that by posting Mortal Azuth you kind of don’t have to post the others... For he became a god by his own power. Or more correctly it was due to the spell or spells he cast. So in other words... He IS the greatest mage that have been yet... by definition and by canon lore.

If you ask who we like then this thread actually has meaning, but ask who is the greatest... well ofc it’s the guy who became a god because of his power and knowledge and actions...

So in short and knowing that I’m a jerk for saying this... it’s a stupid question because it is Azuth... hands down. No question about it!!!


Personally like the Srinshee the most though!

Ps. I know again im a jerk, but if this post is about actual power, and not whom we like, then how can anyone have the nerv to say the Simbul. She is less powerful than Sammaster, who is less powerful than Telemond, who is less powerful than Elminster, who is less powerful than Larloch, who is less powerful than Ioulaum , who is less powerful than Karsus, who is less powerful than the Srinshee whos is less powerful than the firstmagister!!!

Its just such a useless post if ppl have no clue what they are talking about. Sorry to point that out! And the ranking of this list is made by what have been written in these hallowed halls and not by personal feelings!

Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 03 Jun 2011 02:07:56
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  02:06:24  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message
Elminster says to Dalamar in Meeting of the Three that the Simbul could best any two of Dalamar/Elminster/Mordenkainen in magical combat; and in all the 2nd edition source books I have the Simbul is listed at higher level than Elminster (usually 1 level higher). She's killed legions of red wizards single handedly. That's what I was going by in saying she's slightly stronger than him in power. Aside from that she rescued him in Hell and unlike the other wizards, is still going in the lore and may become more powerful now that Mystra has returned in Elminster Must Die. So I guess we'll see. But you're not a jerk. :)

Edited by - Seravin on 03 Jun 2011 02:06:59
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  02:13:54  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

I think it has been clearly established that the Simbul is more powerful than Elminster. Even Ed said so himself. But she's not the most powerful.

Every beginning has an end.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1079 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  02:18:17  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message
ohhh... realy.. I would so like to read that. Because she might be a better tactisian and better at spell battles... but im prette sure in raw power/levels she is less powerul than Elminster!


But as ive said. I would like to read the phrase where it says that Simbul is more powerful than El!

Ohh yeah and sorry for posting Sammaster as more powerful than Simbul... he is ofc the weakest of the list and generally a weak spellcaster IMHO!

Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 03 Jun 2011 02:20:03
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
793 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  02:29:39  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message
In the old Grey Box set (1st edition) El is listed as level 26 and The Simbul is level 27. In the Heroe's Lorebook (2nd edition) El is listed as level 29, The Simbul is level 30. Maybe in 3rd edition he surpassed her? I don't collect 3rd edition game stats, I just know the 2nd edition stuff has her higher level and him being quoted as saying she could take him and another arch mage in spell battle(Ed wrote that scene, it's an excerpt in the Seven Sisters under the Simbul's section).

But it's silly to argue about this...all those listed are SUPER powerful and any one of them could beat any other one on one...would depend on luck (or whoever is writing the story!)

Hehe so fun to have a place where people care about this sort of thing. My pile of FR sourcebooks/novels has a purpose other than me reading it over and over....

Edited by - Seravin on 03 Jun 2011 02:31:20
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  02:55:11  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
Nicolai,

I think he mentioned it in a reply to my question concerning Telamont and the Simbul. I'll try to find it later...(Hopefully, THO would chime in...I'm pretty sure she remembers it well.)

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 03 Jun 2011 02:59:52
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1079 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  12:00:09  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message
Well I must then stand corrected about the Simbul... I have just also read somewhere that Elminster was the first of Mystra's official chosen, and also the most powerful.

But if im indeed wrong...
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  14:46:34  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

ohhh... realy.. I would so like to read that. Because she might be a better tactisian and better at spell battles... but im prette sure in raw power/levels she is less powerul than Elminster!


But as ive said. I would like to read the phrase where it says that Simbul is more powerful than El!

Ohh yeah and sorry for posting Sammaster as more powerful than Simbul... he is ofc the weakest of the list and generally a weak spellcaster IMHO!


In pure combat with multiple foes, the Simbul has so many of those "Simbul"s quickened spell matrix" and other crafted spells that she can launch many lower level spells at will instead of through action. Which is why she is so devastating to legions of weaker red wizards.

At no point do I recall Ed saying the Simbul is more powerful. In his books thus far, the only time I ever recall it coming up was in spellfire. The Simbul admitted to Elminster if they fought she knew she would lose, and Elminster agreed. Then she took off her clothes and they made whoopie. I still love the story of how they met. El going to kill her because he believes her to be a rogue wizard killing others who use the art, but stuttering when he realizes she can also use silverfire and thus, must serve the lady.

Regarding sourcebooks, in the most recent write up of the two(Epic level Handbook), Elminster was ranked Fighter1, Rogue 2, Cleric 3, Wizard 24, Archmage 5, CR39, while the Simbul was ranked Sorceress 20, Archmage 2, Wizard 10, CR36

If you can link me to a quote from Ed saying otherwise, I will stand corrected.

Edited by - Firestorm on 03 Jun 2011 14:48:32
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1079 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2011 :  15:16:40  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message
But can we all agree that this poll must have Azuth as number 1? I remember something about Ed mentioning that Srinshee was the most skilles spellcaster in fearun, and thus not being a god, like azuth, she most be below him.

Im a totally wrong here?
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  01:26:17  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

But can we all agree that this poll must have Azuth as number 1?



Nope

Karsus wins for me. Azuth only (ha) beat a demi-god and a many of the others are Chosen of at least one god (giving them access to divine help which doesn't count in my book). Karsus's Avatar spell (not to mention his flying city and other wonders) let him take over the power of ANY god. He may have been a rubbish god of magic but that one spell alone seals his victory for me.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  02:47:25  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message
Does magical skill equate to magical power?

Azuth ws know as the Lord of SPells while Mystra is the goddess of magic.

When I think of Elminster and Simbul I think of raw magic.. when I think of Srrinshee , Karsus , and Azuth I think of uber spellcasting ability...
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  03:16:18  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

Does magical skill equate to magical power?

Azuth ws know as the Lord of SPells while Mystra is the goddess of magic.

When I think of Elminster and Simbul I think of raw magic.. when I think of Srrinshee , Karsus , and Azuth I think of uber spellcasting ability...



I think at these epic levels all of them have power/casting ability in spades. The only difference is how they use these abilities, i.e the simbul is always blasting things rather than creating peaceful magic.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2902 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  03:49:25  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

Does magical skill equate to magical power?


-If you want it to.

-You can decide whatever factors are important when deciding who you personally think is the best/greatest/most awesome at X.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  15:41:05  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

Does magical skill equate to magical power?


-If you want it to.

-You can decide whatever factors are important when deciding who you personally think is the best/greatest/most awesome at X.



True , but there is reason Azuth became the lord of spells and not the lord of magic.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2902 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2011 :  17:02:37  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

True , but there is reason Azuth became the lord of spells and not the lord of magic.



-Cause that job is/was already taken.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2011 :  23:27:57  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message
I'd certainly agree to Azuth. He's the only one of those on the list who actually SUCCEEDED at becoming a god- and not because of one spell, but because he was deemed WORTHY of it after having cast several spells that caught the Lady's notice! I'd say that beats out Karsus's one and only ATTEPMT to achieve divinity hands down. Where Karsus tried and failed to achieve it( I mean, he died, after all) Azuth, through his own ingenuity and skill, was ADMITTED into the pantheon. Tells me he's the better man for the job.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  04:03:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally.

Every beginning has an end.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  04:35:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally.



Disagree. He couldn't hack being a god, regardless of whose portfolio he stole.

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jordanz
Senior Scribe

509 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  04:37:31  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I'd certainly agree to Azuth. He's the only one of those on the list who actually SUCCEEDED at becoming a god- and not because of one spell, but because he was deemed WORTHY of it after having cast several spells that caught the Lady's notice! I'd say that beats out Karsus's one and only ATTEPMT to achieve divinity hands down. Where Karsus tried and failed to achieve it( I mean, he died, after all) Azuth, through his own ingenuity and skill, was ADMITTED into the pantheon. Tells me he's the better man for the job.




I probably agree however, just to play devil's advocate. Would you hire someone who was a direct threat to your position? Perhaps Karsus fits that bill.

I'm still waiting on Novel that details Azuth's adventures and ascendancy. Let Scott De Bie , Rich Baker, or someone on that level author it.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  06:05:10  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally.



Disagree. He couldn't hack being a god, regardless of whose portfolio he stole.

I'm more inclined to assume that it would also depend on his overall "deity rank," rather than just the portfolio/s he might have seized.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2011 :  06:16:35  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


That would sound unfair to Karsus, I think. No one hindered Azuth when he attempted at godhood. Hence, the success. Had Karsus been less arrogant and targeted a different deity, possibly one of Mystryl's rivals, I say the goddess of magic would have let him be. Heh, she would have even helped him if it meant eradicating a rival and gaining a potential ally.



Disagree. He couldn't hack being a god, regardless of whose portfolio he stole.



We can't be certain of that because he hadn't tried it in the first place. I can't be certain that he would succeed, either. But I leave the possibility there. And it's even more probable if he had set his eyes on a lesser deity. (From a lowly god, he could scheme to be one of the greater deities. That's something not unheard of. Lloth is a glaring example.)

Every beginning has an end.
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