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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6398 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2012 :  07:07:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems as unlikely as Tempus assuming a female form. His "feminine" side is expressed through the Red Knight who serves him, just as Azuth was once a masculine cognate for Mystra.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 01 Jan 2012 :  08:13:53  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I might as well bring this query over to Ed's thread.

On a side note: Isn't there a theory that one of Mystra's avatar merged (more than once) with Azuth (before he ascended) to help him vanquish some foes who were out of his league?

Every beginning has an end.
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Spoon
Seeker

Australia
17 Posts

Posted - 03 Jan 2012 :  07:44:03  Show Profile Send Spoon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Uh, how and when did Mielikki and Lathander die? Last I read, they were very much alive.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2039 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  05:17:53  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Um, no. Talking about the few decent ones, not those spider-kissing be-otches and their lackeys. None of he Dark Maiden's faithful would give Gruumsh the time of day. Which might be why he's so grouchy- no hawt elf-lovin' for HIM, LOL!!!!



Lol! Nice! This is a hard one for me: definitely Eilistraee, but I also miss Vhaeraun and Mask.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  08:25:31  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan

Helm's death is the one that doesn't make any sense to me, well, more than the others. It is/was one of my favorite god and probably the one I miss the most. The fact that I never cared about Torm doesn't help either.

As for Azuth being killed by Asmodeus, well, he didn't have his spells since Mystra just died (or his staff for that matter, as it was planted in Mystra's skull at the time). He could have been overrun with pit fiends, unable to flee to safety.





But...he landed in the Nine Hells...why? That is my point. He should have went to some Lawful Neutral Plane.



Because Asmodeus arranged for him to fall there after he manipulated Cyric and Shar into killing Mystra in the first place.

'Least that's my theory.

Anyway, voted for Helm. Out of all of them, and I mean all of them, Helm's death made the least amount of sense.

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- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2721 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  10:08:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True. Many of the listed deities definitely got the short end of the stick for no apparent reason, but when I read about Helm's death my reaction was: 'lol wth'...

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  10:38:35  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think what bugs me the most is that with all the rest of them I can at least understand the intention behind their death even if I don't agree with it- though really, the only one listed here besides Helm that I liked enough to care about was Mask. And I think a ew of those deaths were for the better, story wise, even if the individual stories showcasing the deaths were poorly written.

But with Helm, I just don't get it. Not only does the story not make any sense- Tyr's a god, not a high school student- but the end result creates an empty niche that I think needs filled which is having a deity who's primarily lawful neutral. I mean, I get when they got rid of the Mystra and the gods of magic, and when they got rid of E&V, they were specifically trying to eliminate their respective niches, and agree or disagree, I can understand why they would make that call. With Helm, I don't.

The only conclusion I can reach other than Helm being an unapologetic victim of deity culling is that they wanted to push Cyric as a great manipulator for having some how set the events into motion, but really there is no way to spin that story that doesn't involve making Tyr look like a complete idiot.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  10:42:41  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, I must have missed this, but when did Mielikki die? I haven't seen anything to suggest she's dead; the FRCG lists her as an active deity in the post spellplague world.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2721 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  11:05:47  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I think what bugs me the most is that with all the rest of them I can at least understand the intention behind their death even if I don't agree with it- though really, the only one listed here besides Helm that I liked enough to care about was Mask. And I think a ew of those deaths were for the better, story wise, even if the individual stories showcasing the deaths were poorly written.

But with Helm, I just don't get it. Not only does the story not make any sense- Tyr's a god, not a high school student- but the end result creates an empty niche that I think needs filled which is having a deity who's primarily lawful neutral. I mean, I get when they got rid of the Mystra and the gods of magic, and when they got rid of E&V, they were specifically trying to eliminate their respective niches, and agree or disagree, I can understand why they would make that call. With Helm, I don't.

The only conclusion I can reach other than Helm being an unapologetic victim of deity culling is that they wanted to push Cyric as a great manipulator for having some how set the events into motion, but really there is no way to spin that story that doesn't involve making Tyr look like a complete idiot.



Actually, there's no point in getting rid of things. They provide choices and it is only up to DMs how/if use them. Getting rid of parts of a setting -especially when popular and valid- because some designer deemed them superfluous (and not because it is a natural and logical evolution of the story. Also, even elements which are considered 'niche' characterize and diversify a setting. You know, RW is full of them and it'd be ugly if it wasn't so) only turns away customers, which is exactly what happened. This is especially true when the execution of such choices happens in the form of events which make little sense -Helm's case is the best example of this-.

I guess that Helm was removed because 'redundancy' with Torm (where they are different enough to coexist), like it happened with others (E and V included).

About Mielikki, she's still alive AFAIK.

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Edited by - Irennan on 23 Oct 2012 11:09:17
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  11:13:18  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

I think what bugs me the most is that with all the rest of them I can at least understand the intention behind their death even if I don't agree with it- though really, the only one listed here besides Helm that I liked enough to care about was Mask. And I think a ew of those deaths were for the better, story wise, even if the individual stories showcasing the deaths were poorly written.

But with Helm, I just don't get it. Not only does the story not make any sense- Tyr's a god, not a high school student- but the end result creates an empty niche that I think needs filled which is having a deity who's primarily lawful neutral. I mean, I get when they got rid of the Mystra and the gods of magic, and when they got rid of E&V, they were specifically trying to eliminate their respective niches, and agree or disagree, I can understand why they would make that call. With Helm, I don't.

The only conclusion I can reach other than Helm being an unapologetic victim of deity culling is that they wanted to push Cyric as a great manipulator for having some how set the events into motion, but really there is no way to spin that story that doesn't involve making Tyr look like a complete idiot.



Actually, there's no point in getting rid of things. They provide choices and it is only up to DMs how/if use them. Getting rid of parts of a setting -especially when popular and valid- because some designer deemed them superfluous (and not because it is a natural and logical evolution of the story. Also, even elements which are considered 'niche' characterize and diversify a setting. You know, RW is full of them and it'd be ugly if it wasn't so) only turns away customers, which is exactly what happened. This is especially true when the execution of such choices happens in the form of events which make little sense -Helm's case is the best example of this-.

I guess that Helm was removed because 'redundancy' with Torm (where they are different enough to coexist), like it happened with others (E and V included).

About Mielikki, she's still alive AFAIK.



I'm really not getting into this debate *again*. It's taken up enough threads on this board. I'm just saying I understand and, in some cases, agree with the intention and am leaving it at that.

Also, then why was Mielikki not only included in the poll about dead gods, but got a few votes for most missed?

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2721 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  11:21:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, I don't know. There's even a channel divinity article for her, so I really doubt that she's dead.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2039 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  19:11:42  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm pretty sure Mielikki isn't dead. Lathander isn't -technically- dead, he's just...transformed. I'm not too fond of this, but it wasn't a "4e move", because the transformation, or Deliverance, as it was called, was prophesized before 4e.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1770 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  20:22:28  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just to expand on what CorellonsDebout said, the god Lathander transformed into is Amaunator, the Keeper of the Yellow Sun.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2039 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  23:04:10  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And Cera is a cleric of his :)

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Drakul
Senior Scribe

USA
363 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2012 :  07:01:40  Show Profile  Visit Drakul's Homepage  Click to see Drakul's MSN Messenger address Send Drakul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vhaeraun gets my vote.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2039 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2012 :  07:04:30  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh yes, totally Vhaeraun. Him, Eilistraee, and Mask are the ones I was most depressed about. I kind of miss Tyr too, but not as badly. I'd say Deneir too.

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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2012 :  07:23:49  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like Myrkul. He was a good fellow, like necromancy and scaring people about death. Hope he comes back.

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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diogrigor
Seeker

21 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2013 :  23:05:42  Show Profile Send diogrigor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted "Other" for Moander.

I think the presence of such a monolithic - destructive force in the Realms would add to its flavor.

My second choice would of course be Bhaal. It's so fun to have a fanatic lot of assassins who actually draw power from their killing.

After all, what would the need for the equivalent good gods be?

P.S. My dislike for yu-gi-oUCH - 4E is known even to Obox-ob. I think it is what makes him hesitate to reclaim Abyss

Edited by - diogrigor on 28 Feb 2013 23:08:05
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe

USA
323 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2013 :  22:40:27  Show Profile Send Drustan Dwnhaedan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I definitely think most of the gods' deaths were idiotic (Azuth, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc.), the one death that affected me the most was Eilistraee's. Considering the fact that her death (along with those of Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, and Vhaeraun) removed any choice of what deity the drow can worship 'canonically' (which also made no sense to me, when they made drow a standard PC race in 4e) it also angered me personally because every single character I have ever played has been a Eilistraeen or worked closely with the Temple of Eilistraee. Hell, at the end of my last campaign, the rest of my adventuring party were guests of honor at my cleric/ranger's marriage to an Eilistraeen priestess, which is probably the single 'happy ending' any of my character's has ever had! (Yes, I know I'm ranting, but I really needed to get this emotional baggage out in the open so I could stop thinking about it.)

*after taking a few moments to regain sanity* So, I voted for Eilistraee. It's unlikely I'll ever get over what happened to her, but as demonstrated with Mystra, deities can return from the dead, and there's always the chance the Dark Maiden may yet return (and if a certain half-dragon cleric/ranger has anything to say about it, she will).
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1172 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2013 :  02:18:42  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're all coming back in one form or another.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2013 :  03:18:15  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan

While I definitely think most of the gods' deaths were idiotic (Azuth, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc.), the one death that affected me the most was Eilistraee's. Considering the fact that her death (along with those of Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, and Vhaeraun) removed any choice of what deity the drow can worship 'canonically' (which also made no sense to me, when they made drow a standard PC race in 4e) it also angered me personally because every single character I have ever played has been a Eilistraeen or worked closely with the Temple of Eilistraee. Hell, at the end of my last campaign, the rest of my adventuring party were guests of honor at my cleric/ranger's marriage to an Eilistraeen priestess, which is probably the single 'happy ending' any of my character's has ever had! (Yes, I know I'm ranting, but I really needed to get this emotional baggage out in the open so I could stop thinking about it.)

*after taking a few moments to regain sanity* So, I voted for Eilistraee. It's unlikely I'll ever get over what happened to her, but as demonstrated with Mystra, deities can return from the dead, and there's always the chance the Dark Maiden may yet return (and if a certain half-dragon cleric/ranger has anything to say about it, she will).



I suspect that Ed will bring her back - she's pretty pivotal to some of his characters. I'm not promising on his behalf, of course, but that's why they made the great plot hole/device that is Ao. :)
~Az

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2039 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2013 :  04:16:14  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would love to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun return as well, but WotC expressed earlier this year, at least to my understanding (and correct me if I am wrong), that they had no real interest in doing anything with the drow that wasn't tied to Lolth, which means no V or E--however I would argue that those two are tied to Lolth.

But hopefully Ed has something to say about it :)

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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2013 :  06:26:16  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought that Ascendancy of the Last (the 3rd novel in the Lady Penitent trilogy) made it clear that Eilistraee isn't dead. Lolth made some remark like "Your brother taught you much about sleight of hand", after Eilistraee and Vhaeraun merged into the "Masked Lady". That was one hint. Then when Eilistraee was "killed", it was noted that her realm didn't disappear, as Lolth expected.

She's not dead, and I don't believe the author intended her to be. The novel says that Halisstra was tricked into beheading Eilistraee when she manifested fully on the surface. Well, gods can't manifest themselves entirely on Faerun. They can only manifest avatars, and killing the avatar doesn't destroy the god.

IMO, Lolth's 2 troublesome children realized that they could never best her individually. She had just become a Greater God after the WOTSQ novels, and they knew they were doomed. So they teamed up to outmaneuver. She thinks they are dead, but come 5e, they will be back to see their plan through. Lolth already overreached in trying to take over the Weave, thus making an enemy of Mystra. Much like Shar, the stars are aligned against Lolth in 5e.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2721 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2013 :  10:05:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I thought that Ascendancy of the Last (the 3rd novel in the Lady Penitent trilogy) made it clear that Eilistraee isn't dead. Lolth made some remark like "Your brother taught you much about sleight of hand", after Eilistraee and Vhaeraun merged into the "Masked Lady". That was one hint. Then when Eilistraee was "killed", it was noted that her realm didn't disappear, as Lolth expected.
She's not dead, and I don't believe the author intended her to be. The novel says that Halisstra was tricked into beheading Eilistraee when she manifested fully on the surface. Well, gods can't manifest themselves entirely on Faerun. They can only manifest avatars, and killing the avatar doesn't destroy the god.

IMO, Lolth's 2 troublesome children realized that they could never best her individually. She had just become a Greater God after the WOTSQ novels, and they knew they were doomed. So they teamed up to outmaneuver. She thinks they are dead, but come 5e, they will be back to see their plan through.


Agree with the first part. The author herself said that she purposely made it so that the two deities could easily be back in action. I hope you are right about the second one.

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Edited by - Irennan on 03 Sep 2013 10:22:38
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2039 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2013 :  04:14:50  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Lillianviaten: I remember that scene in LP, and I got the impression she was dead. The servitor--forgetting his name--practically said as much. Her realm didn't disappear because Corellon stepped in. However, I could very well be wrong and misunderstood those last scenes, in which case, I'll amend my earlier wishes from "back to life", to "come back into the scene". I hope you're right in that she is alive. I'd prefer Vhaeraun be himself again instead of being merged with his sister, but I'll take the Masked Lady over not having them at all.

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