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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 01:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'd like to think she was not really killed, but just forced (by Ao) to reboot herself...to regulate her powers, among other reasons.
If we look at it from this perspective, then I'd suspect Ao has something else up his divine sleeve beside just a simple reboot for Mystra.
Considering how many times she has already been down this path of repeated death and rebirth, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Ao and [by extension] whatever remains of Mystra 2.0, have both sat down and had a chat about working to ensure a new Goddess of Magic that is entirely reconstituted in ways that can't be so easily corrupted by others. This would require a fundamental rethinking of Mystra's relationship with the intimate connection between the Weave and Realmspace, as well as her standing amongst the post-Spellplague pantheon of deities.
In other words, we're talking about skipping Mystra 3.0 and jumping straight to Mystra 7.0 or even 8.0.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 01:25:16
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| I'd favour an entirely new paradigm, personally. It's so far been demonstrated that each Mystra-Goddess-of-Magic - no matter how "improved" compared to the previous version - is ultimately prone to catastrophic failure after sufficient time. An entirely new approach needs to be taken to establish a stable hierarchy ... whether it be to diffuse the Goddess-of-Magic divinity throughout multiple decentralized vessels or to consolidate all magic (including Shar's) into a single one protected by an unassailable firewall ... or perhaps to simply remove Magic from the system entirely. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Jan 2012 01:28:29 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 02:47:01
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| Well, provided that Ed is at the helm of the reworking of the new Mystra [if that is indeed the course of the "The Sage of Shadowdale" books], then I suspect we'll see something entirely unique with regard to how it will all work. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 06:13:10
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Has Mystra ever assumed a male avatar? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 06:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Has Mystra ever assumed a male avatar?
Given the lack of gender-prerequisites for a deity's avatar, I wouldn't completely declare it outside the realm of possibility. But unless Ed's deemed it in his home campaigns, it's never been something we've seen officially in the Realmslore.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Jan 2012 06:43:10 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 07:07:02
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| It seems as unlikely as Tempus assuming a female form. His "feminine" side is expressed through the Red Knight who serves him, just as Azuth was once a masculine cognate for Mystra. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2012 : 08:13:53
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I might as well bring this query over to Ed's thread.
On a side note: Isn't there a theory that one of Mystra's avatar merged (more than once) with Azuth (before he ascended) to help him vanquish some foes who were out of his league? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Spoon
Acolyte
Australia
18 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2012 : 07:44:03
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| Uh, how and when did Mielikki and Lathander die? Last I read, they were very much alive. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 05:17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Um, no. Talking about the few decent ones, not those spider-kissing be-otches and their lackeys. None of he Dark Maiden's faithful would give Gruumsh the time of day. Which might be why he's so grouchy- no hawt elf-lovin' for HIM, LOL!!!!
Lol! Nice! This is a hard one for me: definitely Eilistraee, but I also miss Vhaeraun and Mask. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 08:25:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
Helm's death is the one that doesn't make any sense to me, well, more than the others. It is/was one of my favorite god and probably the one I miss the most. The fact that I never cared about Torm doesn't help either.
As for Azuth being killed by Asmodeus, well, he didn't have his spells since Mystra just died (or his staff for that matter, as it was planted in Mystra's skull at the time). He could have been overrun with pit fiends, unable to flee to safety.
But...he landed in the Nine Hells...why? That is my point. He should have went to some Lawful Neutral Plane.
Because Asmodeus arranged for him to fall there after he manipulated Cyric and Shar into killing Mystra in the first place.
'Least that's my theory.
Anyway, voted for Helm. Out of all of them, and I mean all of them, Helm's death made the least amount of sense. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 10:08:32
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| True. Many of the listed deities definitely got the short end of the stick for no apparent reason, but when I read about Helm's death my reaction was: 'lol wth'... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 10:38:35
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I think what bugs me the most is that with all the rest of them I can at least understand the intention behind their death even if I don't agree with it- though really, the only one listed here besides Helm that I liked enough to care about was Mask. And I think a ew of those deaths were for the better, story wise, even if the individual stories showcasing the deaths were poorly written.
But with Helm, I just don't get it. Not only does the story not make any sense- Tyr's a god, not a high school student- but the end result creates an empty niche that I think needs filled which is having a deity who's primarily lawful neutral. I mean, I get when they got rid of the Mystra and the gods of magic, and when they got rid of E&V, they were specifically trying to eliminate their respective niches, and agree or disagree, I can understand why they would make that call. With Helm, I don't.
The only conclusion I can reach other than Helm being an unapologetic victim of deity culling is that they wanted to push Cyric as a great manipulator for having some how set the events into motion, but really there is no way to spin that story that doesn't involve making Tyr look like a complete idiot. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 10:42:41
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| Also, I must have missed this, but when did Mielikki die? I haven't seen anything to suggest she's dead; the FRCG lists her as an active deity in the post spellplague world. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 11:05:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think what bugs me the most is that with all the rest of them I can at least understand the intention behind their death even if I don't agree with it- though really, the only one listed here besides Helm that I liked enough to care about was Mask. And I think a ew of those deaths were for the better, story wise, even if the individual stories showcasing the deaths were poorly written.
But with Helm, I just don't get it. Not only does the story not make any sense- Tyr's a god, not a high school student- but the end result creates an empty niche that I think needs filled which is having a deity who's primarily lawful neutral. I mean, I get when they got rid of the Mystra and the gods of magic, and when they got rid of E&V, they were specifically trying to eliminate their respective niches, and agree or disagree, I can understand why they would make that call. With Helm, I don't.
The only conclusion I can reach other than Helm being an unapologetic victim of deity culling is that they wanted to push Cyric as a great manipulator for having some how set the events into motion, but really there is no way to spin that story that doesn't involve making Tyr look like a complete idiot.
Actually, there's no point in getting rid of things. They provide choices and it is only up to DMs how/if use them. Getting rid of parts of a setting -especially when popular and valid- because some designer deemed them superfluous (and not because it is a natural and logical evolution of the story. Also, even elements which are considered 'niche' characterize and diversify a setting. You know, RW is full of them and it'd be ugly if it wasn't so) only turns away customers, which is exactly what happened. This is especially true when the execution of such choices happens in the form of events which make little sense -Helm's case is the best example of this-.
I guess that Helm was removed because 'redundancy' with Torm (where they are different enough to coexist), like it happened with others (E and V included).
About Mielikki, she's still alive AFAIK. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Oct 2012 11:09:17 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 11:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I think what bugs me the most is that with all the rest of them I can at least understand the intention behind their death even if I don't agree with it- though really, the only one listed here besides Helm that I liked enough to care about was Mask. And I think a ew of those deaths were for the better, story wise, even if the individual stories showcasing the deaths were poorly written.
But with Helm, I just don't get it. Not only does the story not make any sense- Tyr's a god, not a high school student- but the end result creates an empty niche that I think needs filled which is having a deity who's primarily lawful neutral. I mean, I get when they got rid of the Mystra and the gods of magic, and when they got rid of E&V, they were specifically trying to eliminate their respective niches, and agree or disagree, I can understand why they would make that call. With Helm, I don't.
The only conclusion I can reach other than Helm being an unapologetic victim of deity culling is that they wanted to push Cyric as a great manipulator for having some how set the events into motion, but really there is no way to spin that story that doesn't involve making Tyr look like a complete idiot.
Actually, there's no point in getting rid of things. They provide choices and it is only up to DMs how/if use them. Getting rid of parts of a setting -especially when popular and valid- because some designer deemed them superfluous (and not because it is a natural and logical evolution of the story. Also, even elements which are considered 'niche' characterize and diversify a setting. You know, RW is full of them and it'd be ugly if it wasn't so) only turns away customers, which is exactly what happened. This is especially true when the execution of such choices happens in the form of events which make little sense -Helm's case is the best example of this-.
I guess that Helm was removed because 'redundancy' with Torm (where they are different enough to coexist), like it happened with others (E and V included).
About Mielikki, she's still alive AFAIK.
I'm really not getting into this debate *again*. It's taken up enough threads on this board. I'm just saying I understand and, in some cases, agree with the intention and am leaving it at that.
Also, then why was Mielikki not only included in the poll about dead gods, but got a few votes for most missed? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 11:21:39
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| Honestly, I don't know. There's even a channel divinity article for her, so I really doubt that she's dead. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 19:11:42
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| I'm pretty sure Mielikki isn't dead. Lathander isn't -technically- dead, he's just...transformed. I'm not too fond of this, but it wasn't a "4e move", because the transformation, or Deliverance, as it was called, was prophesized before 4e. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 20:22:28
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| Just to expand on what CorellonsDebout said, the god Lathander transformed into is Amaunator, the Keeper of the Yellow Sun. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 23:04:10
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| And Cera is a cleric of his :) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2012 : 07:04:30
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| Oh yes, totally Vhaeraun. Him, Eilistraee, and Mask are the ones I was most depressed about. I kind of miss Tyr too, but not as badly. I'd say Deneir too. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 07:23:49
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| I like Myrkul. He was a good fellow, like necromancy and scaring people about death. Hope he comes back. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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diogrigor
Acolyte
21 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2013 : 23:05:42
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I voted "Other" for Moander.
I think the presence of such a monolithic - destructive force in the Realms would add to its flavor.
My second choice would of course be Bhaal. It's so fun to have a fanatic lot of assassins who actually draw power from their killing.
After all, what would the need for the equivalent good gods be?
P.S. My dislike for yu-gi-oUCH - 4E is known even to Obox-ob. I think it is what makes him hesitate to reclaim Abyss  |
Edited by - diogrigor on 28 Feb 2013 23:08:05 |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2013 : 22:40:27
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While I definitely think most of the gods' deaths were idiotic (Azuth, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc.), the one death that affected me the most was Eilistraee's. Considering the fact that her death (along with those of Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, and Vhaeraun) removed any choice of what deity the drow can worship 'canonically' (which also made no sense to me, when they made drow a standard PC race in 4e) it also angered me personally because every single character I have ever played has been a Eilistraeen or worked closely with the Temple of Eilistraee. Hell, at the end of my last campaign, the rest of my adventuring party were guests of honor at my cleric/ranger's marriage to an Eilistraeen priestess, which is probably the single 'happy ending' any of my character's has ever had! (Yes, I know I'm ranting, but I really needed to get this emotional baggage out in the open so I could stop thinking about it.)
*after taking a few moments to regain sanity* So, I voted for Eilistraee. It's unlikely I'll ever get over what happened to her, but as demonstrated with Mystra, deities can return from the dead, and there's always the chance the Dark Maiden may yet return (and if a certain half-dragon cleric/ranger has anything to say about it, she will ). |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 02:18:42
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| They're all coming back in one form or another. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 03:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Drustan Dwnhaedan
While I definitely think most of the gods' deaths were idiotic (Azuth, Helm, Mystra, Tyr, etc.), the one death that affected me the most was Eilistraee's. Considering the fact that her death (along with those of Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, and Vhaeraun) removed any choice of what deity the drow can worship 'canonically' (which also made no sense to me, when they made drow a standard PC race in 4e) it also angered me personally because every single character I have ever played has been a Eilistraeen or worked closely with the Temple of Eilistraee. Hell, at the end of my last campaign, the rest of my adventuring party were guests of honor at my cleric/ranger's marriage to an Eilistraeen priestess, which is probably the single 'happy ending' any of my character's has ever had! (Yes, I know I'm ranting, but I really needed to get this emotional baggage out in the open so I could stop thinking about it.)
*after taking a few moments to regain sanity* So, I voted for Eilistraee. It's unlikely I'll ever get over what happened to her, but as demonstrated with Mystra, deities can return from the dead, and there's always the chance the Dark Maiden may yet return (and if a certain half-dragon cleric/ranger has anything to say about it, she will).
I suspect that Ed will bring her back - she's pretty pivotal to some of his characters. I'm not promising on his behalf, of course, but that's why they made the great plot hole/device that is Ao. :)
~Az
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 04:16:14
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I would love to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun return as well, but WotC expressed earlier this year, at least to my understanding (and correct me if I am wrong), that they had no real interest in doing anything with the drow that wasn't tied to Lolth, which means no V or E--however I would argue that those two are tied to Lolth.
But hopefully Ed has something to say about it :) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 06:26:16
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I thought that Ascendancy of the Last (the 3rd novel in the Lady Penitent trilogy) made it clear that Eilistraee isn't dead. Lolth made some remark like "Your brother taught you much about sleight of hand", after Eilistraee and Vhaeraun merged into the "Masked Lady". That was one hint. Then when Eilistraee was "killed", it was noted that her realm didn't disappear, as Lolth expected.
She's not dead, and I don't believe the author intended her to be. The novel says that Halisstra was tricked into beheading Eilistraee when she manifested fully on the surface. Well, gods can't manifest themselves entirely on Faerun. They can only manifest avatars, and killing the avatar doesn't destroy the god.
IMO, Lolth's 2 troublesome children realized that they could never best her individually. She had just become a Greater God after the WOTSQ novels, and they knew they were doomed. So they teamed up to outmaneuver. She thinks they are dead, but come 5e, they will be back to see their plan through. Lolth already overreached in trying to take over the Weave, thus making an enemy of Mystra. Much like Shar, the stars are aligned against Lolth in 5e. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2013 : 10:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I thought that Ascendancy of the Last (the 3rd novel in the Lady Penitent trilogy) made it clear that Eilistraee isn't dead. Lolth made some remark like "Your brother taught you much about sleight of hand", after Eilistraee and Vhaeraun merged into the "Masked Lady". That was one hint. Then when Eilistraee was "killed", it was noted that her realm didn't disappear, as Lolth expected.
She's not dead, and I don't believe the author intended her to be. The novel says that Halisstra was tricked into beheading Eilistraee when she manifested fully on the surface. Well, gods can't manifest themselves entirely on Faerun. They can only manifest avatars, and killing the avatar doesn't destroy the god.
IMO, Lolth's 2 troublesome children realized that they could never best her individually. She had just become a Greater God after the WOTSQ novels, and they knew they were doomed. So they teamed up to outmaneuver. She thinks they are dead, but come 5e, they will be back to see their plan through.
Agree with the first part. The author herself said that she purposely made it so that the two deities could easily be back in action. I hope you are right about the second one. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Sep 2013 10:22:38 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 04:14:50
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| @Lillianviaten: I remember that scene in LP, and I got the impression she was dead. The servitor--forgetting his name--practically said as much. Her realm didn't disappear because Corellon stepped in. However, I could very well be wrong and misunderstood those last scenes, in which case, I'll amend my earlier wishes from "back to life", to "come back into the scene". I hope you're right in that she is alive. I'd prefer Vhaeraun be himself again instead of being merged with his sister, but I'll take the Masked Lady over not having them at all. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Most missed "Dead" Deity
