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Ahwe Yahzhe
Seeker

Iraq
36 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2011 :  01:37:46  Show Profile  Visit Ahwe Yahzhe's Homepage Send Ahwe Yahzhe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...I kinda always liked some of the lesser deities, like Eldath and Shaundakul, myself. I have no idea if either of these two are alive or dead, actually. Stupid 4th Edition FRCG.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2011 :  01:54:25  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a note, Ahwe, if you don't agree with the 4e changes, that's fine. But calling the work incorporated into the FRCG "stupid" isn't really appropriate commentary, so please refrain from doing so.

Thank you.

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2011 :  02:29:29  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ahwe Yahzhe

...I kinda always liked some of the lesser deities, like Eldath and Shaundakul, myself. I have no idea if either of these two are alive or dead, actually. <snip>



Shaundakul and Eldath are still considered alive, based on my research. Wikipedia has a pretty decent listing that is generally updated.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2011 :  03:07:12  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth

quote:
Originally posted by Ahwe Yahzhe

...I kinda always liked some of the lesser deities, like Eldath and Shaundakul, myself. I have no idea if either of these two are alive or dead, actually. <snip>



Shaundakul and Eldath are still considered alive, based on my research. Wikipedia has a pretty decent listing that is generally updated.


I'm going from memory, but I seem to recall Brian James referencing Eldath as something of "a lake spirit" in his "Sarifal" article for DRAGON #376.

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2011 :  04:41:12  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm going from memory, but I seem to recall Brian James referencing Eldath as something of "a lake spirit" in his "Sarifal" article for DRAGON #376.



I don't read DRAGON very often, so I'll defer on that point. I recall reading in one book (I can't place it now - maybe one of Bob Salvatore's books?) that Mielikki and Eldath appeared above their followers over some fight and stated their peaceful goals and agreement with one another's ethos. I have always known that Eldath is a pretty minor power, given her devout are allowed a net as a weapon, but I did have a PC play a very interesting 2E Specialty Priest to Eldath. He grew really powerful in the ways of defense, and I give him great credit for playing a challenging character, especially at lower levels. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who shows up under "deities" gets the privileges thereof until listed otherwise. I would imagine that Tempus would have a strong dislike for her, although I recall discussions that he just dismissed her as naÔve (I recall not the source). Of Shaundakul, I know almost nothing. I don't believe he appeared in any of the FRCG matterial until 3E. I saw him as an interesting deity, and perhaps one I would venerate as a PC, but I'm afraid my players have me trapped in the role of DM and have done so since the advent of the third edition.

Sage, just so you know, when I received notice that you had replied, I was half certain it was to say that you kept the article on Wikipedia updated.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2011 :  01:33:50  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth


Sage, just so you know, when I received notice that you had replied, I was half certain it was to say that you kept the article on Wikipedia updated.


Oh, if I had the time, I certainly would be eager to accept such a role. But you've been a scribe here at Candlekeep long enough now, to appreciate the intricacies of "SageTime."

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2011 :  01:43:35  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, if I had the time, I certainly would be eager to accept such a role. But you've been a scribe here at Candlekeep long enough now, to appreciate the intricacies of "SageTime."




Aye, ítis true, that. There are a lot of things on Wikipedia that I believe are actually out of sync, but for reasons I can't explain, it forgets me every time I close my browser, and I get tired of logging in.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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idilippy
Senior Scribe

USA
408 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2011 :  01:45:20  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is tough. Ever since reading Kemp's very nice Erevis Cale books Mask has been one of my favorite deities, so I ended up picking him. However, Mystra being gone caused the whole mess that is the 4e Realms, Helm is my favorite neutral and/or warrior god, and Elistraee and Vhaerun gave the drow pantheon some options and having them fall in the head-scratching Lady Penitent trilogy made that all the worse.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2011 :  09:19:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Mask is not dead. He's hiding inside Shar.

Every beginning has an end.
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker

51 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2011 :  03:42:32  Show Profile  Visit Tren of Twilight Tower's Homepage Send Tren of Twilight Tower a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Voted Mystra, but I really miss others too - i.e. Mask, Tyr, Lathander, Azuth, Helm...

In my biased and very personal opinion, it was a very bad move to cut out well "established" gods. Worst one to date, regarding FR.

Tren
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  01:18:53  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Realms had too many gods anyway. Take Helm for example, god of guardians? What a waste of time. He should have been a demi power at best. There can't be that many guards in the Realms willing to give him enough worship to elevate him to true godhood. I know he was the jailer of the gods but that was on very few occasions when he was given the power to do so from another.

Edited by - Arcanus on 13 Apr 2011 01:25:55
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  04:41:21  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Lord Mask and Lady Mystra are tied yet again! Arcanus, there are over 98 deities in the complete Greek mythos, and admittedly the pantheon is crowded. That being said, when Ed created the Realms, he created Helm along with other deities because he felt that Helm served a different purpose than Torm or Tempus, for example. It is also important to remember that Helm was created prior to the Time of Troubles, and thus his worship wasn't based on his number of followers. While that was Ao's decree henceforth, there's been very little literature on Helm and that defines his standing with mortals. One might presume that noble warriors who serve their kings and queens as guards, but do not go into battle, might venerate Helm. Merchant caravan guards might also pay tribute to him. The requirements for veneration are unclear, and Ed has said many times that he envisions people in the Realms to worship many deities. The structure of the afterlife is that an individual's patron deity, or the god to whom he or she was most loyal, has claim to the spirit after death. Torm is clearly a god aligned with good fighters and paladins, as might Tyr be as well. If any deity has ever been over-powerful with relation to worship, I'd argue it was Cyric. He inherited the mantle of three gods (and then killed Leira) but was a greater power immediately. That's an awful lot of followers that must "instantly" convert for their worship to be counted toward his power. Regardless, while Helm may serve Tyr in the Pantheon, he exists at Ao's will in Realms canon. I personally am uncertain where I'd rank him in power - certainly not one of the greater powers, though.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.

Edited by - Azuth on 13 Apr 2011 15:30:35
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe

USA
215 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  06:12:48  Show Profile  Visit GMWestermeyer's Homepage Send GMWestermeyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.



Because nothing says "we take this setting seriously" quite like arbitraily killing off and reviving its gods.

"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  06:43:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.



Because nothing says "we take this setting seriously" quite like arbitraily killing off and reviving its gods.



Oh, I think they [the guys from WotC] take the setting seriously. It's just that their "seriously" doesn't match most of our own definition of it.

Or maybe they finally learn the value of listening...Most FR fans, specially those who've been around since its inception, have been incessantly decrying Mystra's death. WotC either got tired and became near-deaf with the all the wailing, gave up, and would just give the fans what they want; or they saw the insight behind it.

Every beginning has an end.
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  13:28:18  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jergal...
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  16:17:53  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth


Lord Mask and Lady Mystra are tied yet again! Arcanus, there are over 98 deities in the complete Greek mythos, and admittedly the pantheon is crowded. That being said, when Ed created the Realms, he created Helm along with other deities because he felt that Helm served a different purpose than Torm or Tempus, for example. It is also important to remember that Helm was created prior to the Time of Troubles, and thus his worship wasn't based on his number of followers. While that was Ao's decree henceforth, there's been very little literature on Helm and that defines his standing with mortals. One might presume that noble warriors who serve their kings and queens as guards, but do not go into battle, might venerate Helm. Merchant caravan guards might also pay tribute to him. The requirements for veneration are unclear, and Ed has said many times that he envisions people in the Realms to worship many deities. The structure of the afterlife is that an individual's patron deity, or the god to whom he or she was most loyal, has claim to the spirit after death. Torm is clearly a god aligned with good fighters and paladins, as might Tyr be as well. If any deity has ever been over-powerful with relation to worship, I'd argue it was Cyric. He inherited the mantle of three gods (and then killed Leira) but was a greater power immediately. That's an awful lot of followers that must "instantly" convert for their worship to be counted toward his power. Regardless, while Helm may serve Tyr in the Pantheon, he exists at Ao's will in Realms canon. I personally am uncertain where I'd rank him in power - certainly not one of the greater powers, though.




Didn't Cyric masquerade as Leira for a while after killing her? Maybe enough time to win the crowds over to him?

It would be far better to have the greater gods absorb the portfolios of the lesser powers closest aligned to their own.
I'm still amazed that in a world of magic, WOTC thought that getting rid of one of the most fundamental gods was a good idea. Crazy.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30288 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  18:00:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus


Didn't Cyric masquerade as Leira for a while after killing her? Maybe enough time to win the crowds over to him?


He did indeed. And I don't recall anyone in the mortal world knowing about this.

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  21:42:10  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus


Didn't Cyric masquerade as Leira for a while after killing her? Maybe enough time to win the crowds over to him?


He did indeed. And I don't recall anyone in the mortal world knowing about this.



Lord Chess knew - didn't Mask taunt him about it before he killed him trapping Kezef? I also seem to recall Chess shouting "murderer of Leira" or something at Cyric in Prince of Lies.

Azuth, the First Magister
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Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2011 :  08:41:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

How about the lesser deities? There seems to be little love for them...

Every beginning has an end.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2011 :  15:48:24  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


How about the lesser deities? There seems to be little love for them...



Therein is the problem with polls: one can only add so many entries. I cuold easily do six polls on dead deities and not cover them all. The lesser deities are some of the most interesting, though. But with respect to game play, taking out a greater power seems to have the most impact on the Realms.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  02:22:17  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

That's rather relative. I say the deities' impact on the Realms and their importance depends heavily on who compels the author to write about them. Take Mask for example. He's a lesser god. But why is there so much love for him?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 26 Apr 2011 02:22:56
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  04:36:12  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


That's rather relative. I say the deities' impact on the Realms and their importance depends heavily on who compels the author to write about them. Take Mask for example. He's a lesser god. But why is there so much love for him?



I should clarify my comment in that it is meant with regard to impact on the functioning of the Realms. If a deity has more worshippers, said deity increases in power and thus import. I do not mean to imply that the lesser deities are of lesser import with respect to the novels. For example: I consider Deneir a very minor god in the Pantheon, being overshadowed greatly by Oghma. But Bob Salvatore made Deneir a central figure to Cadderly and all novels in which he appears. The "Glyphs and Images" portfolio, however, can be..."covered"...by Oghma in his absence. Just as Sylvanus can cover for, say, Mielikki. I don't like that any of the gods are gone, although I'll admit that Bane knocking off Cyric would please me as the ultimate in divine retribution. FWIW.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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mitchellboeck
Seeker

23 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2011 :  18:18:48  Show Profile Send mitchellboeck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elistraee... I loved the fact that she gave the drow a chance to be able to go beyond the limits of their heritage... but now they really dont :(
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  08:54:32  Show Profile  Send Neo2151 an AOL message Send Neo2151 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I picked Mystra. And by Mystra, I mean Mystryl and/or Mystra, not Midnight.
Midnight was never really high on my list of favs, as she was too goodly to really get the neutral position as Goddess of Magic right.

Also, shout out to Jergal (before he gave up his portfolios.)

"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."

-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire
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RedneckBadgerLord
Seeker

USA
32 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2011 :  03:02:57  Show Profile  Visit RedneckBadgerLord's Homepage Send RedneckBadgerLord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well pard, for me it'd be a toss-up between Mystra and Eilistraee.

Why?

Without MystraMidnight magic is absolutely "pwn'd". Sure 4e can make whatever excuse it wants, but a malady like spellplague in actuality would have been total, not skipping over some areas. So by that logic, Mystra may simply be comatose somewhere, not dead.

Eilistraee always seems to get the short end of the stick; from the novels, to the game, it seems like she is treated as a "canon-sue" by most people. Plus, Hallistra should never have logically been able to defeat Qilue alone in battle, let alone Qilue with Eilistraee's aid.

I really dislike how R.A. Salvatore, Lisa Who-ever-she-is, and a few other authors have managed to kill off my favorite characters in a few books. (no I won't rant. I just don't like how a few authors seem to make all the decisions.)

Redwall. Drizzt. Kentucky. Enough said.

I was weaned on 2E Baldur's Gate. Learned 3.5E, and can't stand 4E WoF. (Though I try not to mess up canon too badly).
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