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Arcanus
Senior Scribe

485 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  16:17:53  Show Profile  Visit Arcanus's Homepage Send Arcanus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth


Lord Mask and Lady Mystra are tied yet again! Arcanus, there are over 98 deities in the complete Greek mythos, and admittedly the pantheon is crowded. That being said, when Ed created the Realms, he created Helm along with other deities because he felt that Helm served a different purpose than Torm or Tempus, for example. It is also important to remember that Helm was created prior to the Time of Troubles, and thus his worship wasn't based on his number of followers. While that was Ao's decree henceforth, there's been very little literature on Helm and that defines his standing with mortals. One might presume that noble warriors who serve their kings and queens as guards, but do not go into battle, might venerate Helm. Merchant caravan guards might also pay tribute to him. The requirements for veneration are unclear, and Ed has said many times that he envisions people in the Realms to worship many deities. The structure of the afterlife is that an individual's patron deity, or the god to whom he or she was most loyal, has claim to the spirit after death. Torm is clearly a god aligned with good fighters and paladins, as might Tyr be as well. If any deity has ever been over-powerful with relation to worship, I'd argue it was Cyric. He inherited the mantle of three gods (and then killed Leira) but was a greater power immediately. That's an awful lot of followers that must "instantly" convert for their worship to be counted toward his power. Regardless, while Helm may serve Tyr in the Pantheon, he exists at Ao's will in Realms canon. I personally am uncertain where I'd rank him in power - certainly not one of the greater powers, though.




Didn't Cyric masquerade as Leira for a while after killing her? Maybe enough time to win the crowds over to him?

It would be far better to have the greater gods absorb the portfolios of the lesser powers closest aligned to their own.
I'm still amazed that in a world of magic, WOTC thought that getting rid of one of the most fundamental gods was a good idea. Crazy.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  18:00:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus


Didn't Cyric masquerade as Leira for a while after killing her? Maybe enough time to win the crowds over to him?


He did indeed. And I don't recall anyone in the mortal world knowing about this.

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
404 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  21:42:10  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus


Didn't Cyric masquerade as Leira for a while after killing her? Maybe enough time to win the crowds over to him?


He did indeed. And I don't recall anyone in the mortal world knowing about this.



Lord Chess knew - didn't Mask taunt him about it before he killed him trapping Kezef? I also seem to recall Chess shouting "murderer of Leira" or something at Cyric in Prince of Lies.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2011 :  08:41:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

How about the lesser deities? There seems to be little love for them...

Every beginning has an end.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
404 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2011 :  15:48:24  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


How about the lesser deities? There seems to be little love for them...



Therein is the problem with polls: one can only add so many entries. I cuold easily do six polls on dead deities and not cover them all. The lesser deities are some of the most interesting, though. But with respect to game play, taking out a greater power seems to have the most impact on the Realms.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  02:22:17  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

That's rather relative. I say the deities' impact on the Realms and their importance depends heavily on who compels the author to write about them. Take Mask for example. He's a lesser god. But why is there so much love for him?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 26 Apr 2011 02:22:56
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
404 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2011 :  04:36:12  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


That's rather relative. I say the deities' impact on the Realms and their importance depends heavily on who compels the author to write about them. Take Mask for example. He's a lesser god. But why is there so much love for him?



I should clarify my comment in that it is meant with regard to impact on the functioning of the Realms. If a deity has more worshippers, said deity increases in power and thus import. I do not mean to imply that the lesser deities are of lesser import with respect to the novels. For example: I consider Deneir a very minor god in the Pantheon, being overshadowed greatly by Oghma. But Bob Salvatore made Deneir a central figure to Cadderly and all novels in which he appears. The "Glyphs and Images" portfolio, however, can be..."covered"...by Oghma in his absence. Just as Sylvanus can cover for, say, Mielikki. I don't like that any of the gods are gone, although I'll admit that Bane knocking off Cyric would please me as the ultimate in divine retribution. FWIW.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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mitchellboeck
Acolyte

23 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2011 :  18:18:48  Show Profile Send mitchellboeck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elistraee... I loved the fact that she gave the drow a chance to be able to go beyond the limits of their heritage... but now they really dont :(
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe

USA
113 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2011 :  08:54:32  Show Profile Send Neo2151 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I picked Mystra. And by Mystra, I mean Mystryl and/or Mystra, not Midnight.
Midnight was never really high on my list of favs, as she was too goodly to really get the neutral position as Goddess of Magic right.

Also, shout out to Jergal (before he gave up his portfolios.)

"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."

-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire
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RedneckBadgerLord
Acolyte

USA
32 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2011 :  03:02:57  Show Profile  Visit RedneckBadgerLord's Homepage Send RedneckBadgerLord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well pard, for me it'd be a toss-up between Mystra and Eilistraee.

Why?

Without MystraMidnight magic is absolutely "pwn'd". Sure 4e can make whatever excuse it wants, but a malady like spellplague in actuality would have been total, not skipping over some areas. So by that logic, Mystra may simply be comatose somewhere, not dead.

Eilistraee always seems to get the short end of the stick; from the novels, to the game, it seems like she is treated as a "canon-sue" by most people. Plus, Hallistra should never have logically been able to defeat Qilue alone in battle, let alone Qilue with Eilistraee's aid.

I really dislike how R.A. Salvatore, Lisa Who-ever-she-is, and a few other authors have managed to kill off my favorite characters in a few books. (no I won't rant. I just don't like how a few authors seem to make all the decisions.)

Redwall. Drizzt. Kentucky. Enough said.

I was weaned on 2E Baldur's Gate. Learned 3.5E, and can't stand 4E WoF. (Though I try not to mess up canon too badly).
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Falstaffsrevenge
Acolyte

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2011 :  12:59:23  Show Profile Send Falstaffsrevenge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for Mystra for obvious reasons. I dislike the RSE that brought 4th ed. into existence. Also I know he is a minor diety/extrach (sp) but I still hold a special place in my heart for Finder. Although I don't know that he is dead, or if he is just on a walk about.

Some friends are like slinkies, not much use, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down stairs.
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  18:10:41  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra and Elistraee were my favorite deities, because they seemed to be the only ones who cared about their worshipers, as Ao decreed. Qilue was my favorite mortal. Lathander himself was OK, but some of his followers made certain series' worth reading. Mask and Erevis will be missed by me, while they are gone.

Aren't dark elves now allowed to worship the Seldarine?

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 18 Jul 2011 :  18:37:08  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RedneckBadgerLord

I really dislike how R.A. Salvatore, Lisa Smedman, and a few other authors have managed to kill off my favorite characters in a few books. (no I won't rant. I just don't like how a few authors seem to make all the decisions.)
One should be wary of ascribing blame, as in many cases we simply don't know if character deaths were determined by the author or handed down from on high. Many major FR plot points/events/character deaths (particularly the really big ones) are scripted by the book department at WotC and not subject to authorial editing. It's easy to blame the author, but in some cases, it's the author making the best of a bad situation.

It's what happened, and it does no good to assign blame.

Also, I don't think you meant it that way, but one can disagree without being disrespectful (hence my correction in the quote above).

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2011 :  16:00:11  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While we don't know if the deaths were mandated by WoTC or a personal decision, I really think it was lame the way Bob killed off Regis and Catti-brie. Wulfgar and Bruenor got decent enough send offs and resoultion (especially Bruenor), but both Regis and Catti-brie had pointless off screen deaths unfitting their character's legacy. I know a lot of fans felt this way. Normally Salvatore is such an amazing writer, and I love his characters, but that is one instance where I felt let down. And yes, I also blame 4th Edition for it, fairly or not!
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2131 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2011 :  17:43:06  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by RedneckBadgerLord

I really dislike how R.A. Salvatore, Lisa Smedman, and a few other authors have managed to kill off my favorite characters in a few books. (no I won't rant. I just don't like how a few authors seem to make all the decisions.)
One should be wary of ascribing blame, as in many cases we simply don't know if character deaths were determined by the author or handed down from on high. Many major FR plot points/events/character deaths (particularly the really big ones) are scripted by the book department at WotC and not subject to authorial editing. It's easy to blame the author, but in some cases, it's the author making the best of a bad situation.

It's what happened, and it does no good to assign blame.

Also, I don't think you meant it that way, but one can disagree without being disrespectful (hence my correction in the quote above).

Cheers


Much as R. A. Salvatore was forced to kill off Chewbacca in the first novel of the New Jedi Order series. Unfortunate, since that caused much fan rage against him because they wrongly blamed him for Chewie's death.

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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2011 :  07:26:09  Show Profile  Visit Joran Nobleheart's Homepage Send Joran Nobleheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to say it's kind of tied between Azuth for me and Tyr. The poor crafting of the story of Azuth's death and the equal bad writing between Helm and Tyr is just... ugh. Lathander I never did like, and always preferred Amaunator in my own games, where I still had his clergy active, though few. I always felt Lathander was just utterly childish, not to mention moronic. Just like most of his followers I've seen portrayed. Especially with PCs. Apparently, as one of my own characters remarked, "To follow Lathander, you have to stare into the sun until your brains and all good sense is fully baked away."

Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart

Edited by - Joran Nobleheart on 23 Jul 2011 07:31:00
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe

USA
234 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2011 :  20:54:35  Show Profile Send Xnella Moonblade-Thann a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jornan

Mask will be back in some form. Paul Kemp has sown the seeds for it.

Mystra will be back in some form. Ed has also sown the seeds for it. She has been dead before.

Many of the other dieties protfolios have merely been subsumed into another Gods. That is fine by me and is nothing new to the realms. Infact I have always quite enjoyed the plottings of the Gods.



Mystra may come back...seems plausible (and hopefully it happens). But I don't play 4e (3e/3.5e was what I was introduced to, and still love to this day!) and have an alternate Toril that I play in which is, ironically, set just a half-dozen years after the Spellplague should have happened (and never will happen in my alternate Toril if I have my way). And I have read somewhere (maybe from a download on here...can't quite remember...) that there could be a "cannon" alternate Toril that has not seen the Spellplague and therefore Mystra (along with any of the other gods that "died" between 3.5e and 4e) is quite possibly alive.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2011 :  03:28:55  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann

And I have read somewhere (maybe from a download on here...can't quite remember...) that there could be a "cannon" alternate Toril that has not seen the Spellplague and therefore Mystra (along with any of the other gods that "died" between 3.5e and 4e) is quite possibly alive.



Intriguing, but I never heard of it before.

Every beginning has an end.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
404 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2011 :  05:22:39  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Intriguing, but I never heard of it before.




SPOILER ALERT! Highlight below after you've read Ed's latest book.

Mystra would appear not to be dead according to Bury Elminster Deep so I may have to revise this poll. It is also hinted by dear Ed that Azuth may also be saved, which brings me great relief! ;-)


So, it's safe to say I really loved the new book, and kudos to Ed.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2011 :  05:31:30  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Yes, even in Elminster Must Die Ed already hinted of Mystra's return. What I meant in my previous post is the 'alternate Toril where the SP never happened.' I don't recall any books saying such a thing. And Xnella said it's "canon." So it must be in one of the novels. As far as I know, all the events in the new Elminster series are post-Spellplague.

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
404 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2011 :  05:58:03  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Yes, even in Elminster Must Die Ed already hinted of Mystra's return. What I meant in my previous post is the 'alternate Toril where the SP never happened.' I don't recall any books saying such a thing. And Xnella said it's "canon." So it must be in one of the novels. As far as I know, all the events in the new Elminster series are post-Spellplague.


Sorry, Dennis. I didn't mean to reply to your post. That's what happens when I type late. :-S

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2011 :  05:26:21  Show Profile Send Lady Shadowflame a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for Eilistraee...
To be metaphorical, the plagues of the world were in Pandora's box... but hope was kept within there also.
I see Eilistraee as that hope, to counter the evil that subsumed the drow when they fell.
Besides, she was a chance for good drow without their having to be angsty renegades. And, ahem, Drizzt clones, since one Drizzt is quite enough for me even if I like him...

But Tyr, Lathander, Mystra and all the rest... I wish they hadn't died, too. It's pretty much one of the reasons I resist the change - all the dead deities, characters and places.

Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  15:24:31  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Shadowflame

I voted for Eilistraee...
To be metaphorical, the plagues of the world were in Pandora's box... but hope was kept within there also.
I see Eilistraee as that hope, to counter the evil that subsumed the drow when they fell.
Besides, she was a chance for good drow without their having to be angsty renegades. And, ahem, Drizzt clones, since one Drizzt is quite enough for me even if I like him...

But Tyr, Lathander, Mystra and all the rest... I wish they hadn't died, too. It's pretty much one of the reasons I resist the change - all the dead deities, characters and places.
thats very true with the loss of so many goodly gods the realms has become a much darker place. while Mystra is the obvious choice i felt that Helm was the one whose death was the most unfair and ahem most unjust.

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Roboginger
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  18:14:48  Show Profile Send Roboginger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My vote went for Mystra, with Mask as a close second, Mystra just seems like the Most important God in the realms.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2011 :  18:42:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Roboginger

Mystra just seems like the Most important God in the realms.

Because that's how the designers want it. And Ed, too, (or so it seems).

Every beginning has an end.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2011 :  09:48:28  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well it certainly seems that her death was the one that caused the most chaos. What with the blue fire and spellplague ravaging the land.
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2011 :  05:37:27  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gee, thanks for the spoiler. Voted Eilistrae this time.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
404 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2011 :  05:48:17  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron

Gee, thanks for the spoiler. Voted Eilistrae this time.




Well, if you didn't read Elminster Must Die or Bury Elminster Deep, then yes, it is a spoiler of sorts in that she makes a small appearance in both, meaning she's not dead. As to how alive she is, well, that's another matter entirely...

Azuth


Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2011 :  14:33:59  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I'd like to think she was not really killed, but just forced (by Ao) to reboot herself...to regulate her powers, among other reasons.

Every beginning has an end.
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2011 :  17:03:22  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read Elminster Must Die, and there was the vaguest of hints. I'm still waiting for the new one to come out in paperback.
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