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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1944 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  20:47:24  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a Spellweaver Lich, The Harbinger from the Age of Worms adventure path. He was great fun.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2011 :  14:16:03  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More dead gods there is the better, for example Leira, Myrkul, Moander, Auppenser are all well executed.
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe

171 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2011 :  18:11:05  Show Profile  Send ChieftainTwilight a Yahoo! Message Send ChieftainTwilight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mystra. for crying out loud, she was almost the ESSENCE of Faerun! she WAS the Weave! litterally! and we all know Faerun and Magic are pretty much interchangable terms!

plus, she was replaced like 3 or 4 times already. why die NOW? that's BS!

and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2011 :  03:16:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight

Mystra. for crying out loud, she was almost the ESSENCE of Faerun! she WAS the Weave! litterally! and we all know Faerun and Magic are pretty much interchangable terms!

plus, she was replaced like 3 or 4 times already. why die NOW? that's BS!



I recommend you read Elminster Must Die, if you haven't yet, that is.

Every beginning has an end.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2011 :  19:47:47  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all, where is it stated that Jergal is dead or gone?

Secondly, I am currently running a 4e FR campaign

(SPOILERS FOR ANY OF MY PLAYERS)


wherein one of the main characters is the reincarnation of Eilistraee (though she doesn't know it) and the big bad guy is the reincarnation of Vhaeraun (he's well aware). He's currently making her jump through hoops so she becomes powerful enough to ally with him to go kill Lolth and take her throne.


END SPOILERS

So clearly, I'm all about the dead gods.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2011 :  20:01:22  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Just for the record, Jergal isn't on my list for the poll. He's clearly alive and serving as the Seneschal for Kelemvor.

Cheers,

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  00:24:30  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

First of all, where is it stated that Jergal is dead or gone?

Secondly, I am currently running a 4e FR campaign
I don't think it was so much about defining Jergal as "dead" in the classic sense -- since we know that particular state is very difficult to apply to deities.

What I was referring to, mostly, was providing Jergal with a more active place [rather than the "so-far-off-in-the-faded-background-as-to-almost-be-forgotten" that he occupies in the canon Realms] in my pantheon, because he's still such a cool god!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 25 Mar 2011 00:25:30
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  01:37:16  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I agree that Jergal is a fascinating deity. He was a major power before he gave up his porfolio to Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. Since we never had any canon scenes in the books with Jergal serving Myrkul, I'm not sure how that relationship was. Cyric likes to abuse him, and Kelemvor seems to rely on his advice a lot. Regardless, he seems like he serves the God of Death as a very reliable ally.

I can also see giving him Time as a domain, especially since no god has held it since Chronos. I gave it to Shaundakul - it sloppily folded in with travelers and what not. I figured he'd like to help them with time. Jergal's been around for an eternity, though, so that definitely works.

Cheers, all.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  01:58:11  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth


I can also see giving him Time as a domain, especially since no god has held it since Chronos.


That's largely what I've done.

Interestingly, as I've speculated in the past [in terms of the official Realms], perhaps the Time porfolio fell into the hands of Jergal in the pre-Spellplague Realms. But after his demotion to "Exarch" status in the 4e Realms, the Time portfolio once again came up for grabs.

At which point, I'm still content to believe much of what Eric Boyd and I discussed about the Time portfolio back in '06. That the Time portfolio remained free largely because, at the time [pun intended, I suppose], it wasn't feasible to be definitive about it, as some future project [nothing proposed at that point in '06] might have called for it. [Or, in other words, maybe Eric wanted to leave room for further development.]

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6398 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  03:02:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've said it before ...
Portfolio of Time is governed by Dendar the (Nidhogg) Night Serpent in my homebrew. It works surprisingly well. Booya!

[/Ayrik]
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1944 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  03:16:23  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been doing some research here at the 'Keep about the Age of Worms. In the Age of Worms Overload supplement it was intimated that Jergal was an ascended Spellweaver. I still haven't read through all of it, but I thought the idea had merit.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  03:18:48  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Actually, Arik, I think your notion that Time is within the control of Ao is probably the most reasonable argument. Unless I have a vast misunderstanding, Ao's powers are limitless in the Realms. His role, as it were, and seemingly-self-defined, is to maintain the Balance. If one of the deities had control over time and died, time would become unpredictable. Presumably Ao would have to either keep said deity safe from harm (thus favoring a deity and potentially disrupting the Balance) or risk chronometric chaos.

I can see the Realms surviving without a deity over Magic (although I'm not really sure I agree that Ao ever would) but Time is too important. I would even dare to suppose that Ao's "emergence from Chaos" is what brought about the notion of time in Realmspace. Dendar is an interesting notion, but as I understand, she's not a deity. The fact that she possesses Cyric's nightmares has intrigued me, as it seems odd that a deity would sleep. Since neither she nor Ao are dead, though, I'll have to leave that to another topic.

But, on topic, one could argue that "Time" is a shared portfolio, with Lathander holding part of it, and Kelemvor holding the other in 3E.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6398 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  03:53:34  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can't go wrong dumping indefinable powers onto Ao. Assuming Ao exists, lol.

One simple definition is that "time is the passage of events". You need an "event" of some kind to set time in motion; you need at least one more "event" to apply any sort of measure to intervals of time. It might be that the "portfolio of time" is in fact governed not by deities but by mortals. The deities might lack any capacity to motivate events without mortal perceptions, they are seemingly eternal and unaffected by time, they may not even perceive time as anything more than an mortal abstraction. Mortals live, age, die, and decay within a universe filled with time. Time might be fundamental (as suggested by the existence of the Demiplane of Time), time might just be a mortal consensus of belief; it might even be a consensus imposed (designed) by a creator deity such as Ao.

Shar is also a fine Time-deity contender, since she represents entropy and oblivion (and thus the ultimate end of time). Labelas Enoreth of the Seldarine is an obvious choice, as are Chronepsis, Io, and Bahamut of the Draconic pantheon. It could be argued that the earliest calendars and chronologies didn't exist until elves and dragons arrived; it may be that time (as we understand it) simply didn't exist in the Realms until introduced by foreign agencies. Time might even be a perversion or attack from the Far Realms or some incidental fallout from the Blood War.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Mar 2011 03:59:25
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  04:32:04  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

I've been doing some research here at the 'Keep about the Age of Worms. In the Age of Worms Overload supplement it was intimated that Jergal was an ascended Spellweaver. I still haven't read through all of it, but I thought the idea had merit.

Ed previously also provided some rather curious thoughts on that particular tidbit, back in May 2010:-

"Much has yet to be revealed about the spellweaver race and about the racial past/development of the thri-kreen. Both of which have a connection to Jergal (in one case to his mortal self AND his divine self, and in the other only to his divine self).
There. NDAs avoided by one of deftest dances I've had to do in a long time. :}"

...

Cue ominous music.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6398 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  04:46:42  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jergal's depiction in some artwork seems vaguely gith-like to me, though that might just be my gith-love leaking through. Mind ye, he also looks a little similar to Odin, last survivor of the immortal Arakacian race from Heavy Metal 2000 ... he could be an Arakacian!

Jergal looks more like some sort of thri-kreen/thor-kreen lich creature in other artwork. Things might be complicated because he's a deity and can thus assume almost any form he likes, even one that's entirely unique as best suits him.

This is one of the better discussions I've found about his race/species. It includes this passage:
quote:
"Jergal is almost certainly an ascended Spellweaver from the Lake of Steam area, as speculated by Realms author/designer Eric Boyd on these boards some time back."

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Mar 2011 04:56:14
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2011 :  18:40:34  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

You can't go wrong dumping indefinable powers onto Ao. Assuming Ao exists, lol.




Oh he definately exists.....in my bookshelves, he goes by Red Walker.


P.S. the only "portfolio" he lacks is Spellcheck and Scroll Edit

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  03:41:54  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Mystra and Mask appear to be the leaders. I'll admit that Mask's high ranking surprises me, but as yet they're tied. Perhaps we'll draw in a few more votes yet to either break the tie, or bring another dead deity in as a dark horse/usurper to the title of "most missed" in this poll?


Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  03:58:37  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Mystra has returned [Elminster Must Die]. And Mask will, if the end of Shadowrealm is any indication.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 03 Apr 2011 03:59:02
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  04:23:12  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Mystra has returned [Elminster Must Die]. And Mask will, if the end of Shadowrealm is any indication.



Possibly, Dennis, and I hope you're right. However, as has been speculated many times previously, there's nothing preventing a deity from impersonating another one, especially if that deity is "dead." Cyric, if memory serves, impersonated Leira granting spells to her worshippers for a great while. I do hope you have divined the correct answer, though. Ed's silence on the subject(no doubt as compelled by NDA and his being a great author) may portend well for her resurrection.

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  04:34:12  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.

Every beginning has an end.
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Azuth
Senior Scribe

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  04:43:34  Show Profile  Visit Azuth's Homepage Send Azuth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.



I agree, and the Goddess of Magic would certainly be a greater power. The question, then, is whether we get Mystra 1.0 back, Midnight, or a new "3.0" version? A follow-up, will WoTC then have to release a 4.5 edition or will they jump to 5.0?

Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells

The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  04:50:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Azuth

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.



I agree, and the Goddess of Magic would certainly be a greater power. The question, then, is whether we get Mystra 1.0 back, Midnight, or a new "3.0" version? A follow-up, will WoTC then have to release a 4.5 edition or will they jump to 5.0?




It doesn't matter that much. For me, in a way it's the same goddess. Mystra carried some of Mystryl; and Midnight carried some of Mystra 1.0. As I noted in THIS THREAD, one of my conjectures regarding her return is that she'll possess Amarune, who's already possessed by El himself.

Every beginning has an end.
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
569 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2011 :  09:51:00  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myrkul

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2011 :  11:57:13  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Savras and Leira

z455t
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2011 :  12:32:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I'm surprised Allistair didn't mention...

I kinda miss Karsus. Even though his godhood was just for a fleeting moment.

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