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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 03:16:23
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| I've been doing some research here at the 'Keep about the Age of Worms. In the Age of Worms Overload supplement it was intimated that Jergal was an ascended Spellweaver. I still haven't read through all of it, but I thought the idea had merit. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 03:18:48
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Actually, Arik, I think your notion that Time is within the control of Ao is probably the most reasonable argument. Unless I have a vast misunderstanding, Ao's powers are limitless in the Realms. His role, as it were, and seemingly-self-defined, is to maintain the Balance. If one of the deities had control over time and died, time would become unpredictable. Presumably Ao would have to either keep said deity safe from harm (thus favoring a deity and potentially disrupting the Balance) or risk chronometric chaos.
I can see the Realms surviving without a deity over Magic (although I'm not really sure I agree that Ao ever would) but Time is too important. I would even dare to suppose that Ao's "emergence from Chaos" is what brought about the notion of time in Realmspace. Dendar is an interesting notion, but as I understand, she's not a deity. The fact that she possesses Cyric's nightmares has intrigued me, as it seems odd that a deity would sleep. Since neither she nor Ao are dead, though, I'll have to leave that to another topic.
But, on topic, one could argue that "Time" is a shared portfolio, with Lathander holding part of it, and Kelemvor holding the other in 3E.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 03:53:34
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You can't go wrong dumping indefinable powers onto Ao. Assuming Ao exists, lol.
One simple definition is that "time is the passage of events". You need an "event" of some kind to set time in motion; you need at least one more "event" to apply any sort of measure to intervals of time. It might be that the "portfolio of time" is in fact governed not by deities but by mortals. The deities might lack any capacity to motivate events without mortal perceptions, they are seemingly eternal and unaffected by time, they may not even perceive time as anything more than an mortal abstraction. Mortals live, age, die, and decay within a universe filled with time. Time might be fundamental (as suggested by the existence of the Demiplane of Time), time might just be a mortal consensus of belief; it might even be a consensus imposed (designed) by a creator deity such as Ao.
Shar is also a fine Time-deity contender, since she represents entropy and oblivion (and thus the ultimate end of time). Labelas Enoreth of the Seldarine is an obvious choice, as are Chronepsis, Io, and Bahamut of the Draconic pantheon. It could be argued that the earliest calendars and chronologies didn't exist until elves and dragons arrived; it may be that time (as we understand it) simply didn't exist in the Realms until introduced by foreign agencies. Time might even be a perversion or attack from the Far Realms or some incidental fallout from the Blood War. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Mar 2011 03:59:25 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 04:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I've been doing some research here at the 'Keep about the Age of Worms. In the Age of Worms Overload supplement it was intimated that Jergal was an ascended Spellweaver. I still haven't read through all of it, but I thought the idea had merit.
Ed previously also provided some rather curious thoughts on that particular tidbit, back in May 2010:-
"Much has yet to be revealed about the spellweaver race and about the racial past/development of the thri-kreen. Both of which have a connection to Jergal (in one case to his mortal self AND his divine self, and in the other only to his divine self).
There. NDAs avoided by one of deftest dances I've had to do in a long time. :}"
...
Cue ominous music.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 04:46:42
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Jergal's depiction in some artwork seems vaguely gith-like to me, though that might just be my gith-love leaking through. Mind ye, he also looks a little similar to Odin, last survivor of the immortal Arakacian race from Heavy Metal 2000 ... he could be an Arakacian!
Jergal looks more like some sort of thri-kreen/thor-kreen lich creature in other artwork. Things might be complicated because he's a deity and can thus assume almost any form he likes, even one that's entirely unique as best suits him.
This is one of the better discussions I've found about his race/species. It includes this passage:quote:
"Jergal is almost certainly an ascended Spellweaver from the Lake of Steam area, as speculated by Realms author/designer Eric Boyd on these boards some time back."
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Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Mar 2011 04:56:14 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2011 : 18:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You can't go wrong dumping indefinable powers onto Ao. Assuming Ao exists, lol.
Oh he definately exists.....in my bookshelves, he goes by Red Walker. 
P.S. the only "portfolio" he lacks is Spellcheck and Scroll Edit |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 03:41:54
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Mystra and Mask appear to be the leaders. I'll admit that Mask's high ranking surprises me, but as yet they're tied. Perhaps we'll draw in a few more votes yet to either break the tie, or bring another dead deity in as a dark horse/usurper to the title of "most missed" in this poll?
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 03:58:37
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Mystra has returned [Elminster Must Die]. And Mask will, if the end of Shadowrealm is any indication. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Apr 2011 03:59:02 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Mystra has returned [Elminster Must Die]. And Mask will, if the end of Shadowrealm is any indication.
Possibly, Dennis, and I hope you're right. However, as has been speculated many times previously, there's nothing preventing a deity from impersonating another one, especially if that deity is "dead." Cyric, if memory serves, impersonated Leira granting spells to her worshippers for a great while. I do hope you have divined the correct answer, though. Ed's silence on the subject(no doubt as compelled by NDA and his being a great author) may portend well for her resurrection.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:34:12
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I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.
I agree, and the Goddess of Magic would certainly be a greater power. The question, then, is whether we get Mystra 1.0 back, Midnight, or a new "3.0" version? A follow-up, will WoTC then have to release a 4.5 edition or will they jump to 5.0? 
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 04:50:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.
I agree, and the Goddess of Magic would certainly be a greater power. The question, then, is whether we get Mystra 1.0 back, Midnight, or a new "3.0" version? A follow-up, will WoTC then have to release a 4.5 edition or will they jump to 5.0?
It doesn't matter that much. For me, in a way it's the same goddess. Mystra carried some of Mystryl; and Midnight carried some of Mystra 1.0. As I noted in THIS THREAD, one of my conjectures regarding her return is that she'll possess Amarune, who's already possessed by El himself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2011 : 09:51:00
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| Myrkul |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 11:57:13
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| Savras and Leira |
z455t |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2011 : 12:32:41
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I'm surprised Allistair didn't mention...
I kinda miss Karsus. Even though his godhood was just for a fleeting moment. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ahwe Yahzhe
Acolyte
Iraq
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 01:37:46
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| ...I kinda always liked some of the lesser deities, like Eldath and Shaundakul, myself. I have no idea if either of these two are alive or dead, actually. Stupid 4th Edition FRCG. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 01:54:25
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Just a note, Ahwe, if you don't agree with the 4e changes, that's fine. But calling the work incorporated into the FRCG "stupid" isn't really appropriate commentary, so please refrain from doing so.
Thank you.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 02:29:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ahwe Yahzhe
...I kinda always liked some of the lesser deities, like Eldath and Shaundakul, myself. I have no idea if either of these two are alive or dead, actually. <snip>
Shaundakul and Eldath are still considered alive, based on my research. Wikipedia has a pretty decent listing that is generally updated.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 03:07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
quote:
Originally posted by Ahwe Yahzhe
...I kinda always liked some of the lesser deities, like Eldath and Shaundakul, myself. I have no idea if either of these two are alive or dead, actually. <snip>
Shaundakul and Eldath are still considered alive, based on my research. Wikipedia has a pretty decent listing that is generally updated.
I'm going from memory, but I seem to recall Brian James referencing Eldath as something of "a lake spirit" in his "Sarifal" article for DRAGON #376. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2011 : 04:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm going from memory, but I seem to recall Brian James referencing Eldath as something of "a lake spirit" in his "Sarifal" article for DRAGON #376.
I don't read DRAGON very often, so I'll defer on that point. I recall reading in one book (I can't place it now - maybe one of Bob Salvatore's books?) that Mielikki and Eldath appeared above their followers over some fight and stated their peaceful goals and agreement with one another's ethos. I have always known that Eldath is a pretty minor power, given her devout are allowed a net as a weapon, but I did have a PC play a very interesting 2E Specialty Priest to Eldath. He grew really powerful in the ways of defense, and I give him great credit for playing a challenging character, especially at lower levels. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who shows up under "deities" gets the privileges thereof until listed otherwise. I would imagine that Tempus would have a strong dislike for her, although I recall discussions that he just dismissed her as naïve (I recall not the source). Of Shaundakul, I know almost nothing. I don't believe he appeared in any of the FRCG matterial until 3E. I saw him as an interesting deity, and perhaps one I would venerate as a PC, but I'm afraid my players have me trapped in the role of DM and have done so since the advent of the third edition.
Sage, just so you know, when I received notice that you had replied, I was half certain it was to say that you kept the article on Wikipedia updated.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 01:33:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Azuth
Sage, just so you know, when I received notice that you had replied, I was half certain it was to say that you kept the article on Wikipedia updated.
Oh, if I had the time, I certainly would be eager to accept such a role. But you've been a scribe here at Candlekeep long enough now, to appreciate the intricacies of "SageTime." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 01:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, if I had the time, I certainly would be eager to accept such a role. But you've been a scribe here at Candlekeep long enough now, to appreciate the intricacies of "SageTime."
Aye, ’tis true, that. There are a lot of things on Wikipedia that I believe are actually out of sync, but for reasons I can't explain, it forgets me every time I close my browser, and I get tired of logging in.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 01:45:20
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| This is tough. Ever since reading Kemp's very nice Erevis Cale books Mask has been one of my favorite deities, so I ended up picking him. However, Mystra being gone caused the whole mess that is the 4e Realms, Helm is my favorite neutral and/or warrior god, and Elistraee and Vhaerun gave the drow pantheon some options and having them fall in the head-scratching Lady Penitent trilogy made that all the worse. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 09:19:47
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Mask is not dead. He's hiding inside Shar. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 03:42:32
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Voted Mystra, but I really miss others too - i.e. Mask, Tyr, Lathander, Azuth, Helm...
In my biased and very personal opinion, it was a very bad move to cut out well "established" gods. Worst one to date, regarding FR.
Tren |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 01:18:53
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| The Realms had too many gods anyway. Take Helm for example, god of guardians? What a waste of time. He should have been a demi power at best. There can't be that many guards in the Realms willing to give him enough worship to elevate him to true godhood. I know he was the jailer of the gods but that was on very few occasions when he was given the power to do so from another. |
Edited by - Arcanus on 13 Apr 2011 01:25:55 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 04:41:21
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Lord Mask and Lady Mystra are tied yet again! Arcanus, there are over 98 deities in the complete Greek mythos, and admittedly the pantheon is crowded. That being said, when Ed created the Realms, he created Helm along with other deities because he felt that Helm served a different purpose than Torm or Tempus, for example. It is also important to remember that Helm was created prior to the Time of Troubles, and thus his worship wasn't based on his number of followers. While that was Ao's decree henceforth, there's been very little literature on Helm and that defines his standing with mortals. One might presume that noble warriors who serve their kings and queens as guards, but do not go into battle, might venerate Helm. Merchant caravan guards might also pay tribute to him. The requirements for veneration are unclear, and Ed has said many times that he envisions people in the Realms to worship many deities. The structure of the afterlife is that an individual's patron deity, or the god to whom he or she was most loyal, has claim to the spirit after death. Torm is clearly a god aligned with good fighters and paladins, as might Tyr be as well. If any deity has ever been over-powerful with relation to worship, I'd argue it was Cyric. He inherited the mantle of three gods (and then killed Leira) but was a greater power immediately. That's an awful lot of followers that must "instantly" convert for their worship to be counted toward his power. Regardless, while Helm may serve Tyr in the Pantheon, he exists at Ao's will in Realms canon. I personally am uncertain where I'd rank him in power - certainly not one of the greater powers, though.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
Edited by - Azuth on 13 Apr 2011 15:30:35 |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 06:12:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.
Because nothing says "we take this setting seriously" quite like arbitraily killing off and reviving its gods. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 06:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think of Mystra as one of the great ties to the past. She's been around since the conception of FR [as Mystryl], and completely eradicating her somehow sounds just not right. Actually, one of the reasons I wasn't bothered at all by the "death" of Mystra during the SP is because I suspected WotC would bring her back.
Because nothing says "we take this setting seriously" quite like arbitraily killing off and reviving its gods.
Oh, I think they [the guys from WotC] take the setting seriously. It's just that their "seriously" doesn't match most of our own definition of it.
Or maybe they finally learn the value of listening...Most FR fans, specially those who've been around since its inception, have been incessantly decrying Mystra's death. WotC either got tired and became near-deaf with the all the wailing, gave up, and would just give the fans what they want; or they saw the insight behind it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe
USA
527 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 13:28:18
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| Jergal... |
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Most missed "Dead" Deity
