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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 14:02:50
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Hi there again,
after getting very much information out of the recent questions asked here, of course a myriad of new ones opens up....
I have learned, that the Hobgoblins, by race, are so successful according to their own ethnics, that they have no big urge / desire to conquer more lands or build kingdoms.
They are living their lives in their environment, seemingly with no overall goal as a race . Like dreaming of old empires of the past.
This is, of course, only my interpretion of the hooded ones reply to my basic question.
So, as I have learned, still there are several Hobgoblin Kingdoms either still in existance or have existed, mainly in central/southern Faerun and especially in and below amnian territory.
Now, the sythilisian empire is, since 1370 reflecting the huge population of humanoids and what happens if they are brought under a single banner.
And here comes my question.
With the only ( to my knowledge ) real hobgoblin Kingdom existing in the ultimate neighbourhood of the sythilisians, would it be too alien for the hobgoblins as a race, to try to either subdue or vastly increase the influence their influence in these areas?
Or, as another example, the Goblin Marches and the Stonelands would be more than easy for Hobgoblins to subdue and unite - as long as they keep a low profile against cormyr until they are "ready".
The Tun-Bandits could not stand against the united Humanoids of the region, and I think neither the Shades nor Cormyr would move seriously against them, as long as the threat gets not too imminent - eventually they could also form a treaty or cease of fire as Obould worked out with the silver marches....
I know this is most likely to annoy some people - but hopefully not - but I personally have always waited for something big to happen with this race, just by the way they have been described since the 2e and onwards.
The Hooded one once replied that they have different goals and ethincs than humans - which is understandable, but I always had the expression as if the whole race was preparing for something "BIG" to happen with them, eventually as described in the canon about goblinoid deities referring to Maglubyiet and his "Throne" in the orsraun Mountains.
Please share your thoughts about this with me, as I think this could be a quite interesting discussion.
Greetings
Jakuta Khan
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 20:26:15
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Hobgoblins of the High Moor are more civilized, and isolated enough, they could pull it off.
Imagine if someone raised an undead army in the Battle of Bones and unite them with the Goblin Marches and High Moor, that'd be a force. With only Najara in the their way. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2011 : 22:46:41
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Pure Homebrew:
In the East, in the Northern Hordelands along the eastern shore of Yal Tengri (The Great Ice Sea), are the Fankiang lands. You can see that region on This Map. That is my 'Hobgoblin Homeland', called the 'Fan-Kiang' by the Tuigen (Taangan) in the region. It means something very insulting in Shou (which is the language more-widely spoken in that area, but most tribesmen of the Hordelands speak several tongues).
They were bred as slaves for the mighty Kalmyk Empire that once existed to the north (that band of 'empty area' just west of the Pazruki lands on the map), and eventually became the backbone of their military (Warthralls). The first city to rebel was Pohjola, and the Hobgoblins were lead by a Beur Hag of immense power, and the conflicts that took place between that city and the Kalmyk capitol of Väinölä (Kalvela) are legendary (and multi-spheric thanks to 'the gods'). In the end, ALL the slaves revolted and took the Kalmyk Empire for themseves, dispersing the human population first south, and then west (and enslaving no small number of them).
Eventually, the Hobgoblins found that they were ill-prepared to run an empire, and the Beur Hag (and her Ice-Demon allies) somehow were able to change the weather to suit themselves better - a climate a bit too 'chilly' for Hobgoblin tastes (this is what the Hobgoblins believe, the truth of the sudden coldness goes much deeper). Although many hags still retain strongholds in the region of the former Kalmyk Empire, the majority of the Humanoid population moved south, conquering the Haltai (aboriginal Lung people of Kara-Tur) and driving their former masters before them (who migrated along the shores of Yal Tengri to the south and east, and became known as the Raumvari peoples). Having learned about 'civilization' from the Kalmyk, their kingdom was also based on slave-keeping, but of the human variety (who did the day-to-day labor, like farming and crafts, but were not allowed to become fighters... the Hobgoblins would not make the same mistake their masters did).
Eventually the Hobgoblins - now calling themselves The Kalmyr - grew strong enough to draw the attention of the rising Imaskari Empire, who traded with them and used them as mercenaries against the other barbarians of the region (like the Tuigen and Raumvari Gur, both groups being of the 'Taangan' Horse-warrior culture).
With the arrival of the Shou from another world, the size of Imaskar doubled (and their power was multiplied exponentially), and things changed for the Kalmyr Hobgoblins. The Shou made peace with the Tuigen - long a thorn in Imaskar's side - and the need for the Humanoid soldiers declined. Soon the Shou - who had settled in the north-eastern portion of the Imaskari hinterlands (the once-fertile Quoya Basin) – set out on a campaign against the Hobgoblins, who were woefully out-matched in magical might, and were driven back into the forests and mountainous regions. Many ruins still exist from that time period in the Fankiang lands, and are considered both 'holy' and haunted by the Goblinoids.
Years past, and time marched on, and empires rose and fell in the Endless Wastes, including the mighty Imaskari, and nearly a dozen 'successor empires' that took their place. The Shou themselves migrated east, allying themselves with the mystical Spirit-Folk (Kami), and subjugated the indigenous Haltai (Lung) peoples. For a time, the Raumvari made a comeback, in the form of the Raumathari Empire, and controlled the lands that had belonged to the Kalmyk Hobgoblins, their hated enemies from the distant past. Some tribes even became mercenaries in the employ of Raumathar, hunting their fellow Humaoids and ferreting them out of their northern hiding places. This was a dark time for the Goblinoids, but some little good came out of it - the Shou, fearing the Raumathari expansion to their west, secretly aided the Hobgoblins that were fighting with the Raumathari, and supplied them with weapons, armor, and even 'consultants' to give battle tactics and train them better. This would later come back and bite them in the Artox.
After the fall of Raumathar - at the mutual hands of Narfell - a vast power-vacuum was left in The Wastes; one that was readily filled by the now better-organized and cunning (not to mention incredibly fierce) Kalmyr Hobgoblins. A mighty leader rose amongst them - a massive, imposing creature wearing armor made completely of copper - who rallied the Humanoids into an unholy frenzy. They poured forth from their hidden keeps in the far north and began a massive campaign of their own, seizing human lands all around them and forcing them to fight in their armies (the old lessons now long-forgotten). After many initial successes, completely destroying at least one civilization (Tsharoon, which existed in the Shou-abandoned Quoya) and wreaking havoc on several others (like Ra-Khati, Mulhorand, Khazari, Semphar, and Solon), the Hobgoblins turned their attention on their former allies, the (Li dynasty) Shou.
Marching east to the Chukei Plateau, the mighty Overlord of the Kalmyk came into direct conflict with the Wujen Emperor Tan-Chin, who's sorcerous powers revealed the huge creature to be a Demon Lord (none other then Ma Yuan!) The two battled to a standstill, and eventually Tan-Chin fled the field (to return much later after the Copper Demon was defeated by the hero Wo Mai). The Demon Prince ruled for many years, creating a race of super-Ogres - Wang Liang - by breading the local ones with Oni (Demons). After the the hero Wo Mei captured (forced it out of it's armor and into the Acorn of Wo Mai) the Demon Prince, a Hobgoblin chieftan by the name of Toyghia briefly lead the Kalmyr, before a powerful Ogre-Magi (a Wang-Liang) took his place. Soon, the Hobgoblins were little better off then they were in ancient times, when they were the canon-fodder of the Human Kalmyk. Disgruntled by their new, lower position in what they considered their own empire, Toyghia marched most of his humanoid forces west, to continue his campaign against the peoples of the Taan.
Hun-Kho, the leader of the human portion of the Kalmyr forces, chose to remain with the new Ogre kingdom, simply because the Wang Liang treated them better then the hobgoblins did (understanding the intellectual superiority of these humans over their own pure-ogre population – they needed someone to manage their nation for them).
Meanwhile, most of the humanoid army of the Kalmyr (called ‘Suren’ by their victims, which means ‘demon’ in some eastern dialect), lead by Toyghia, had continued the campaign against the human nations of the Taan (Hordelands) and the A-Ling Shan (northern chain of the mighty Yehimal Mountains). Unbeknownst to them, the Shou were recovering from their defeat, and after only a handful of centuries they attacked the Kalmyk of the Chukei plateau. After a brief but fierce struggle, the Ogres were driven into the mountains of the north and the Ama Basin (the vast Taiga forests and swamps of the frozen north). The humans surrendered, becoming subjects of the new (Kao) Shou Kingdom, but they would forever more be troublesome to the Jade Throne (this group – the Chukeins - of all the peoples of Shou Lung, behave much as their ancestors did; fierce Horse warriors). The Kao Shou then marched west, liberating land after land from the Suren Invaders (and subjugating them in-turn, but any rule was preferable after the Susen rampage). The Hobgoblins were driven back to the lands they now hold - the Fankiang.
The Hobgoblins Today:
There are still several human tribes mixed amongst the Fankiang, and even one tribe of ogres, but they are all ruled by the Hobgoblins of Li-Raz, and their clever leader, Chuqali Shilai. Most of the human Fankiang use the other major settlement – Haxkhun – as their base of operations, and answer to its leaders (who in-turn answer to Shilai). Jugicha is another major human settlement, but they broke-off from the Fankiang around the time Shou Lung drove them back to the Horse Plains. They have now become the Tsu-tsu tribe, and allied with Yamun Kahan in the Tuigen Horde. Other human Fankiang also allied with the Great Khan during the Horde Wars, but the Hobgoblins were turned down, after the chief of the Ogre tribe met with Tomke (Yamun’s son).
The Fankiang (as they are known by their neighbors) still consider themselves the heirs of the Kalmyk, and will even still use the term ‘Susen’ in regards to each other (Hobgoblin only). Their land is littered with ruins, with far more ancient ones to the forbidden north. They have learned to use the best strategies of those peoples around them – they have adopted the look (armor and weapons) and organization of the Shou, and depend heavily upon cavalry like their Tuigen neighbors. They have even taken some of these things to new heights, literally, with Shaman riding pteradons similar to the Thayans, and using large war-beasts (Wooly Rhino-like monstrosities indigenous to the northern steppes), and even riding selectively bred Steppe Tigers (large Smilodons, often kept as animal companions by some northern peoples, of both Narfell and the Northern Wastes). They have managed to magically breed an even larger version which they ride into battle… much to their enemies awe and distress.
That’s it – that’s my 4e-ready, ‘new take’ on old lore. AFAIK it violates no official lore (which is why I left out specific dates), and ALL of the names (including cultures and dynasties) are canon. Much of it was derived from the small history section of the Hordelands box, and a bit added-in from the novel Horselords, with the rest being distilled by various other sources dealing with this region and the Imaskari (like the three modules).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2011 22:04:37 |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2011 : 21:58:17
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Interesting read!
You said it violates no canon, where did we learn that the Shou came from another world? Is that similar to the arrival of the Mulhorandi? |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 00:22:12
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also, Ed had said there was a hobgoblin cult that could be
powerful in the Realms today, but he elaborated no more
on it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 06:15:19
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The Shou arrival (interloping) was first speculated on by Gray Richardson, I believe, and Brian R. James used some of that in his original (free) version of The Grand History of the Realms. I'm not entirely sure how much of that pre-history made it into the printed version of the book, but its excepted as canon these days (there may be an entry in the GHotR - I can't recall). The parts about Anok-Imaskar are still there (the Shou-portion of Imaskar), so the assumption can be made that the Shou were different then the Lung/indigenous K-T peoples, but beyond that I don't think their origins were touched upon in the official source.
The Shou were a tall, red-headed people, with eyes more like an elf's then an Oriental's. I get this from reading about the ethnicities in the K-T material; wherever the noble Shou blood predominated, the people are larger and prone to reddish hair. Nobles get 'bragging rights' about how pure their blood is, and use their appearance as 'proof' (which, as we know from genetics, doesn't really prove what % is present). The Royal (Imperial) line are all considered 'pure bloods', but even their bloodline has been 'polluted' through the millenia.
As for their arrival, it was not like what happened with the Mulan; the Shou were fleeing their own homeworld catastrophe. The people that arrived on Toril were but one of twelve such groups: Each band of refugees went to a different Sphere to improve their chances of survival, lead by a portion of their many gods (including Celestial Dragons). This is why we find similar cultures on a large number of worlds. Unbeknowst to the twelve groups that left, a thirteenth group stayed behind and attempted to rebuild (the devastation was so complete that only a small number had any chance to survive on the meager resources remaining). Shou magic was very similar to what is seen in both the Avatar/Airbender series (Shukeja), and also a bit like Full metal Alchemist (Wujen). Their knowledge of Materials & Elements exponentially increased the Imaskari understanding of things Arcane (just as Imaskar's translocational magics improved theirs).
The second paragraph is mostly conjecture; the third is PURE homebrew.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2011 06:24:59 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 19:21:53
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@markustay: as always, really great stuff to read and very structured.
regarding the hobgoblins of the high moor, as they are very civilized, according to elminsters ecologies, and even have an understanding for the economical system around them, it would make perfect sense to have a boost in their population there, too.
Additionally there do exist large numbers of small ponies, where as horsemeat is preferred by hobgoblins.
The more interesting question is, though, as the hooded one said, "hobgoblins are so successful that they do not have any need to conquer" this let me have sleepless nights...
What exactly is meant by this? ARE they actually preparing for something bis, or just waiting for an avatar of their gods to lead them....
If you read the monster entries and reports from elminster, hobgoblins are very well capable of building and maintaining large organized kingdoms, which in general puts them in a huge advantage compared to other evil humanoids...
and by forging alliances with other humanoids and applying their knowledge about warfare to a race as for example trolls.... just imagine trolls being led by a hobgoblin, supported by magic-users or potions to protect them from acid and fire....
pretty nasty and not really difficult to achieve.
this is what is in my mind... or them really uniting the stonelands and goblin marshes, with skull gorge as center of power, striking an alliance with the shadovar to eradicate cormyr or the dales....
with the magic support from the shadovar, the tribes of these areas could really become a serious threat...
elminster states, that in these regions 7.000 adult goblin warriors live alone - and this just on or near the surface, he ives no indication about other humanoids. But after the recent happenings in cormyr, it canbe said that if even orcs are that numerous, the hobgoblins will surely have a good population, too.
Which leads to the next thought: given the later MM it seems, that hobgoblins also are very capable of producing able spellcasters, and this would then be the last thing for them to complete the entire race as the nearly perfect war machine.
they are tougher and more agile than humans, as intelligent as they are, and every adult specimen is trained for war.
Coming back to the basic question, kobolds, orcs, ogres... all these humanoid races raid or try to conquer human lands in regular intervalls.
As HG have also a quite high reproduction rate and live for warfare, it is just surprising that there are so few occasions where they really turn up in some serious numbers....
And when they do, they are imho understated. In the lands of intrigue entry of the sythilisian forces, it is said that their ranks include ( if I remeber correctly ) 20.000 Hobgoblin warriors, most likely from the holorauran ( the old dwarven ) empire of hobgoblins ( canon from information of centers of worhsip for HG deitis ).
If they come from an empire, or also if it is tribes, yopu will have a force structured into units of between 50 and 200 warriors, ed by sergeants and lieutnants, including clerics and other magic users....
This force alone could wreak havoc on amn in the situation where the invasion starts. But they are backed by thousands of ogres, 30.000 kobolds !!! and countless goblins.....
And AMN can stand against them after two or three initial successes????
maybe I do not get a decisive point, but this all is a bit odd for me.
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 21:08:41
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@markustay,
hey, this is the kind o tiger He-Man is riding ;) |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2011 : 21:41:11
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It's not FR canon but I always liked the idea of giving the developement of the Iron Mind martial discipline from Tome of Battle to ancient Hobgoblins. Hobgoblins have the perfect mindset for this brutally efficent fighting style that has lately been rediscovered by the multitalented swordsman Revan.
There is an oral legend among amongst the Hobgoblins that in ancient times a warhero was practising upon a hilltop in a storm and suddenly was struck by lightning. He miraculously survived the impact, his blade and armour crackling and smoking. From then on he saw that only by adapting to the attributes of lightning his strength and skill could improve. Lightning strikes in the blink of an eye, exhausting power with the sole purpose of destruction. The Hobgoblin hero from then on managed to create a fighting style that embraced this: a fast, powerful and kinetic fighting style focused on ending fights as soon as possible. Iron Mind was born. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 03:41:03
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Hobgoblins are smart enough not to make too much of a nuisance of themselves, so as not to attract unwanted attention, They learned early-on humans and demi-humans hit back HARD.
When they do care to strike at those targets, they usually subjugate tribes of lesser creatures like goblins, kobolds, and even orcs and bugbears to do their bidding, often attacking from a location belonging to their underlings, and in a completely different direction from where the Hobgoblin settlements themselves can be found.
In other words, they are not just smart, they are REALLY smart.
As for the Syphilis Empire, note that unlike most 'hordes', they managed to keep much of what they took (they actually abandoned the stuff Amn took back, after they pillaged the hell out of it and left nothing valuable behind). It makes perfect sense for the Ogre-magi to work with Hobgoblins, because Ogre-Magi originated in the east (and are called Wang-Liang), and if you look at certain illustrations of hobgoblin weapons and armor they look remarkably oriental (lending credence to my theory they originated in the East). In fact, it is my theory that Hobgoblins are to the Eastern realms what Orcs are to the west. Anyhow, I think the connection between Ogre-magi and HB's goes way back in time, and the two work well together.
As for the shades, the Netherease have a long history of anti-unhuman behavior, mostly against the Orcs and Ogres, but canonically against even Giants and Gnomes (not to mention playing vivisectionist on many spelljamming races - the Netherease are what Neogi scare their children with). Although I know of no specific references to anti-Hobgoblin campaigns by the Netherease, in light of their normal xenophobia I would say that just lends credence to just how smart the hobgoblins are (they managed to avoid Netherease notice, for the most part). So what I am getting at is that the Shades are Netherease, and the Netherease don't really like anything that isn't human.
As THO put it, the Hobgoblins are successful, which in terms of humanoids means they have managed to stay well under the radar. That doesn't mean they are weak - quite the contrary.quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
@markustay,
hey, this is the kind o tiger He-Man is riding ;)
Precisely what I was going for.
As for the other things I mentioned - there are pics representing just that in some of the 3e books (I distinctly remember the one riding the Rhino). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2011 03:43:41 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 12:55:16
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| I thought the Syphilis was controlled by the Twisted Rune |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 14:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Hobgoblins of the High Moor are more civilized, and isolated enough, they could pull it off.
Imagine if someone raised an undead army in the Battle of Bones and unite them with the Goblin Marches and High Moor, that'd be a force. With only Najara in the their way.
There are some goblins in the High Moor who pay homage to one referred to as the Ogre King, and believe he will one day come back to rule. No more details than that.
Goblinoids have a tendency to be ruled by bigger goblinoids, or enslaved by other races. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 22:54:54
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@markus:
interesting thoughts, indeed.
so, hypothetically, it could be very well, that all the mentioned regions, like the high moor, stonelands etc. are already very well under hobgoblin control.
the only difference is, that they use a network of "representatives" which do not give specific hints to their rule.
for example, in the stonelands, the hobgoblin clans have established an alliance of their tribes and clans, and through different means, they control the other humanoids, either directly or indirectly.
this would also be a good explaination, why cormyr jas jad such a hard time in controlling the region, and nobody else has managed to do so up to now, too.
it would mean, that despite the seemingly uncontrolled and disorganized humanoids in the area, the truth is really a nation or very well organized regional rulership of hobgoblins, which has managed to resist all settling / conquering attempts so far, with wits and cunning, and using the brute strength of arms only indirectly to stay, as THO said, under the radar.
with the explainations markus has given, about the farkiand region as lands of origin, and their link to ogre mages in the east, makes IMHO perfect sense.
@markus: i would be extremely interested where you get all these informations about the hordelands, and especially the hobgoblins in the eastern parts of faerun. with what you said, them having learned how hard humanoids and especially humans can hit back it would make sense, for exmaple if some of their leaders back in the times when their empire was crumbling saw what would happen and migrated westwards, in areas where the threat from them as a race was unheard of, and stay "hidden" with all the knowledge they got through their experiences in their homelands.
regarding the tigers the hobgoblins breed, eventually it would suit the feral template attached to a normal tiger, I would not go as far to use dire tigers as base creature - they ouwld be too difficult to feed just by size i think.
IMHO dire goats would make sense in the habitat they usually have. and they can be fed much easier than cows or other animals. and would save them the necessary to do serious farming.
I also agree with the eastern-look of their arms and weapons in many pictures - you have to send me the picture of the hobgoblin riding the rhino - and the concept of Bushido would also perfectly suit the hobgoblins as a race, but maybe this goes a bit too far.
but the master samurai prestige class or ninja etc. would suit the eastern-approach very well.
coming back to staying uner the radar. this opens up a myriad of extremely interesting adventure ideas for humanoids, under a completely new view.
the skull gorge could, as example, be a real power center for thehobgoblins in western faerun. and if they had managed to re-discover some of the weapon and treasure-groves of the ancient empire whos survivors fled there after the battle of bones, they could have learned an awful lot about magic there, too.
from this power base, they could easily control almost the complete area between the storm horns and the high moor, in the "below the radar" way.
another interesting approach would be the thesis, that the hobgoblins are secretively responsible that, if an evil madman is rallying troops, they almost always can muster such a high number of troops without great problems. the thought of hobgoblins pulling the lines behind most of the relevant humanoid tribes, and manipulating them into alliances with these mad wizards, zhents, phaerimm etc. would allow the hobgoblins to further their long term goals, with easily eradicating eventual rivals, and keeping the "best" of the other humanoids low in some way.
This would allow them every time to strengthen their grip on the specific regions where these humanoids are beind mustered.
eventually they even wait for an occasion where a sudden strike, or one with careful planning makes sense and has some chance of success even - like the sythilisian empire.
The skull gorge theme is a very nice one, the moe i think about it, just imagine hobgoblin wizards / clerics being able to summon poweful demons etc. and binding them.
it would also explain why the stonelands have withstood attempts by so many adventurers trying to establish a hold there. we all know that disorganized humanoids cannot stand against a well equipped and prepared group of adventurers, and not at all if they bring some mercs or other support....
much more interesting to find otu would though be, if there can be any canon found, or any information at all, supporting markus approach to hobgoblins originating in the east, and eventually even some hints or prooves about their westward migration....
thays separation war from mulhorand for example, could have proven as an impulse for a westward migration, with large numbers of hobgoblin mercenaries being hired to fight in the war, and afterwards discharged or something....
really interesting discussion so far and looking forward on further replies.
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 22:59:43
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| @ alisttair, where do you source the onfirmation about the ogre-king? I never heard about this one. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2011 : 23:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Shou arrival (interloping) was first speculated on by Gray Richardson, I believe, and Brian R. James used some of that in his original (free) version of The Grand History of the Realms. I'm not entirely sure how much of that pre-history made it into the printed version of the book, but its excepted as canon these days (there may be an entry in the GHotR - I can't recall).
Well, I have that original 'free' version, that's the only version I have in fact, and that's not in there. And I never noted anything of the sort when I put together the Kara-tur timeline references for the old FR Enclyclopedia project.
Who 'accepts this as canon'?
I hate to be argumentative, but since i'm working on an article detailing Oriental lands across the multiverse for Spelljammer, this change to the origins might have an impact. :)
Don't get me wrong though, I like and agree with your basic idea of giving hobgoblin's a vaguely Oriental flavor. I've always felt the same way, though I'm not certain exactly which old TSR product first turned me in that direction. I know I didn't think of it on my own. :)
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 01:03:51
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Hobgoblins are illustrated in the original Monster Manual in vaguely Eastern-looking armour; the Warhammer World, for instance, likewise made them pseudo-Mongols.
By the way, the usual Realms term is 'goblinkin', not 'goblinoids'. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 01:50:46
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| No, Syphilis is controlled by antibiotics. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 03:14:37
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Auntie Biotics? Isn't she a Netherease lich?
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
Well, I have that original 'free' version, that's the only version I have in fact, and that's not in there. And I never noted anything of the sort when I put together the Kara-tur timeline references for the old FR Enclyclopedia project.
Its in the beginning of my free version; there were several editions of that, before it went print and became official. It talks about how the Celestial Dragon Mei lung Chen Shan lead the Shou peoples from his world to Toril.
That part is psuedo-canon, but the stuff about them fleeing their homeworld (Jadespace) and colonizing the known worlds is pure homebrew on my part. This happened many thousands of years ago, and you probably know, Jadespace has recovered. I assume the original Celestial Bureaucracy was dispersed, and 'local gods' took-up the names of those missing deities. For instance, the CB god (of thieves) No-Cha was actually Vhaeraun in Realmspace. The real No-Cha went to another sphere.
IIRC, the arrival of the Shou people is also touched upon 9briefly and vaguely) in one of the 2e 'god books'.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
@markus: i would be extremely interested where you get all these informations about the hordelands, and especially the hobgoblins in the eastern parts of faerun. with what you said, them having learned how hard humanoids and especially humans can hit back it would make sense, for exmaple if some of their leaders back in the times when their empire was crumbling saw what would happen and migrated westwards, in areas where the threat from them as a race was unheard of, and stay "hidden" with all the knowledge they got through their experiences in their homelands.
A lot of it is pure conjecture, but all of that was built-into the canon Hordelands history. Canonically, according to the novel Horselords, the leader of the Kalmyk (Kalmyr as they are called in that book) is human, but the text doesn't specifically specify if the leader of the Suren (Susen) was Human, hence my convoluted history. I had the idea of connecting the Kalmyk to Kalvera (Finnish mythos) a long time ago, and then I read in one of the Hordeland modules that the mountain-countries were attacked by 'demon horsemen', which I ran with, and just assume the reference was to inhuman-looking horse-raiders.
As for their connection to Eastern Ogres, more pure speculation. I have an Ogre Empire in the far north of K-T in the distant past, which returned with the Spellplague and Abeir (its complicated - Tan Chin used his powerful Imaskari magics to open a portal to another world, and drove the Ogres through it, which they didn't realize until too late).
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
regarding the tigers the hobgoblins breed, eventually it would suit the feral template attached to a normal tiger, I would not go as far to use dire tigers as base creature - they would be too difficult to feed just by size i think.
IMHO dire goats would make sense in the habitat they usually have. and they can be fed much easier than cows or other animals. and would save them the necessary to do serious farming.
I picture Gnomes riding Goats, like in WoW (actually the Dwarves of WoW uses a type of Dire Goat, but I give FR Dwarves bears instead).
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
I also agree with the eastern-look of their arms and weapons in many pictures - you have to send me the picture of the hobgoblin riding the rhino - and the concept of Bushido would also perfectly suit the hobgoblins as a race, but maybe this goes a bit too far.
but the master samurai prestige class or ninja etc. would suit the eastern-approach very well.
This Picture?
Its from the Warbeast template (3eMM2), which is very fitting (rather then the feral one you suggested).
I went with the tiger because there is some canon (in the novel Sentinelspire) that goblinoids (notably an orc in the book) and some human tribes (Narfel and the some western Taangan tribes) have Steppe Tigers (which are similar to large, prehistoric 'great cats') as a bonded animal companion. I just took it a step further with the Hobgoblin kingdom (consider them an 'elite force', like the royal gaurd - not all the Hobs ride them). I still need to find the pic of the one riding the giant batlike critter (obviously my ideas are a fusion of dozens of sources).
As for canon concerning humanoids - there is some evidence that Gnolls started out around the Hordelands region (they had an empire that was in the eastern portion of The Shaar in prehistoric times). Once again, I continue that train of thought and assume there was a period of time - after the sundering and with the disappearance of the Creator Races - where humanoids rose to dominance for a short while (until the dragons & Giants ended their war, with each other and the elves and dwarves). Gnolls aren't exactly hobgoblins, but they would have lived in the Raurin region around the time of the first (human) kalmyk empire. Flinds still inhabit the Spider Peaks (and I have my theories about them, as well).
The 3eMM5 had a whole bunch of hobgoblin types all fleshed-out. I use all of that as the basis for my Fankiang Kingdom (which is what the humans call tribal region - they would probably still call themselves Suren (as in their race, so they would be the Fankiang Susen). I can't link the pic because for some reason the one of the HB's isn't in the art gallery for that book. Either way, you should read it - there's an entire section in there on their culture. (a rigid military caste society)
EDIT: Here's an Eberron Hobgoblin - you can see they went full-bore with the Oriental take in that setting (which I also borrow from).
And here is what I picture their dactyl-riding shamans to look like. Cheesy, I know, but they even use the pumpkin Bombs (which are made from real gourds that grow in the region). Note his shamanistic medicine-pouch. 
And here's another good one I just found - not sure of the source. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Mar 2011 03:58:48 |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 06:24:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its in the beginning of my free version; there were several editions of that, before it went print and became official. It talks about how the Celestial Dragon Mei lung Chen Shan lead the Shou peoples from his world to Toril.
That's definitely in this printed GHotRs?  I'm torn on that. We alrready have (by my count) orcs, some elves, & the Mulan coming to Toril via gates. This Shou invasion does follow onto that pattern - but also that makes it seem a bit tired. I guess I'll have to read it to judge it.
I'm afraid i'm not familiar with Jadespace. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 07:46:09
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thanks markus for the reply.
it fits pretty well. the thought regarding goats wouldbe simply becaue of efficiency - much easier to train / feed dire goats than tigers - meat is way more difficult to get. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 09:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its in the beginning of my free version; there were several editions of that, before it went print and became official. It talks about how the Celestial Dragon Mei lung Chen Shan lead the Shou peoples from his world to Toril.
That's definitely in this printed GHotRs? I'm torn on that. We alrready have (by my count) orcs, some elves, & the Mulan coming to Toril via gates. This Shou invasion does follow onto that pattern - but also that makes it seem a bit tired.
Agree.
The official GHotR has only the celestial dragon battling the emperor of the Imaskari survivor state.
The noncanon pdf version I have says that T`ien Lung led a tribe of humans north and east to settle among the modern day lands of Semphar, Skalhoond Forest, and The Firepeaks. These humans became known as Lung, the ancestors of the Tuigan, Shou, Wang, and other human ethnicities of Kara-Tur and the Far East.
If the Jadespace is an oriental sphere wouldn't the Lung fit better, cause the Shou look different (red hair, weird eyes, taller)? |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 09:32:39
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very interesting, indeed.
markus, what do you think about the possibile power center at skull gorge?
well, most likely you have an assortment of information on the area, which leaves the holy bible as a small booklet compared to it :)
regarding the 3.5emm5 - there it is absolutely clear that hobgoblins are also very used to magic users in their ranks, and quite good at it, too.
although in general i do not like this "template attachment" to normal humanoids to desperately create new monsters, but in some occasions they did a pretty good job.
back in my early times in the realms, we fleshed out a likely scenario in the timeline, where the 4th edition started.
considering all the information we had back then ( 2e ) after weeks of discussions, reading etc. we eventually came to the clue, that in 1460 dr or so, vast portions of the western heartlands wouldbe under the ontrol of hobgoblins and their subdued humanoid allies / slaves.
basically, also, with you mentioning eberron HG, I think this approach very interesting, especially the caste system in the goblinoid society.
with goblins being farmes, experts etc. and "light troops" and hobgoblins as leaders, standard soldiers, clerics etc. and the bugbears as hvy muscle for shock troops etc.
warbeast template i had completely forgotten about. |
Edited by - Jakuta Khan on 01 Mar 2011 09:53:27 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 11:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
@ alisttair, where do you source the onfirmation about the ogre-king? I never heard about this one.
The 4E Campaign Guide in one of the Loudwater adventures in the first chapter has you go to a goblin hideout in the High Moor not far south of Loudwater where a goblin shaman, Sancossug, is performing a ritual (which doesn't even work even though he thinks it does) to resurrect the Ogre King, and there is a statue of the Ogre King within the hideout (as well as a nice picture of it). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 23:38:12
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| thanks for this alisttair |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 23:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The official GHotR has only the celestial dragon battling the emperor of the Imaskari survivor state.
The noncanon pdf version I have says that T`ien Lung led a tribe of humans north and east to settle among the modern day lands of Semphar, Skalhoond Forest, and The Firepeaks. These humans became known as Lung, the ancestors of the Tuigan, Shou, Wang, and other human ethnicities of Kara-Tur and the Far East.
If the Jadespace is an oriental sphere wouldn't the Lung fit better, cause the Shou look different (red hair, weird eyes, taller)?
That sounds better. I guess I am going to need a used copy of GHotRs soon. I hadn't realized it was much different from the online version I had downloaded. It was the only post-3e product I've ever considered purchasing from WotC (the post-3e novels I read I've gotten from the library) but when I looked it over in the stores it seemed identical to the pdf I already had except for the Spellplague stuff at the end.
Is this red-haired Shou stuff in there? I don't recall that in the Kara-tur boxed set but maybe I've just forgotten, it's been about 10 years since I really read that boxed set. Or wait, is it in the Horde boxed set? I guess I might need to reread both.
Moving back to hobgoblins, regardless of system, I think they are aprime species for minor battle-magic. I always made use of the old witch-doctors and shamans in the 1e DMG, the legends the humanoids sprang from all granted them some nasty forms of magic after all! And hobgoblins' regimented and organized tactics make using the PCs minor batlle magic tactics against them both logical and evilly fun. :)
In my Mercs PBEM campaign, set in late 1369, some Knights of the Black Gauntlet are leading a hobgoblin army to attack Nagarr. Since this army has been well trained by the Knights and is devoted to 'Bane' (really Xvim) it doesn't really follow racial norms.
I love the idea of a hobgoblin kingdom though!
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 03:15:49
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RIGHT.
I guess I wasn't clear - that incident with the interloping Shou is in MY free edition of the GhotR (of which their were several iterations - you obviously have an earlier one then mine).*
I wasn't able to find an indication of where the Shou came from in the printed version, other then that they are are first mentioned in regards to Anok-Imaskar, which was the third (and final) version of Imaskar, and it also happens to be considered the first Empire of Shou Lung (by Shou scholars - westerners stillrefer to it as Anok-Imaskar). That much is canon. It just doesn't tell us where the oriental-like shou came from before Anok Imaskar, so its still open to interpretation - and Brian James, who wrote the book, agrees that the Shou and Lung (aboriginal Haltai tribes) were two different groups. I think I got that mixed-up with the refernce (in one of the 'god books' about the people of Kara-Tur being interlopers from another sphere (I will have to look for that, but I'm sure Quale knows... he keeps better notes).quote:
Originally posted by Quale
If the Jadespace is an oriental sphere wouldn't the Lung fit better, cause the Shou look different (red hair, weird eyes, taller)?
Not really. The shorter, dark-haired and sallow-skinned people remained behind in Jadespace. The 12 clans each had distinctive looks. You should see the world where the Purple-headed ones wound up. 
The green-haired ones wound up in the Wilderlands setting and are called the Veridians. 
*I'm just looking over my GHotR (free) copy and it says the same thing Quale's does, and does so in regards to the Lung, not the Shou. Hmmmm... Lung actually works better because of the dragon tie-in. I suppose the Lung peoples could have emigrated and named their portion of the Empire Anok. I believe Brian participated in the kara-Tur Project thread over at WotC, and we decided the Shou should be the interlopers, since he had already pegged the Lung as being 'native'. However, since that part was left out of the print version, it may now be better to back-pebble a wee bit (gawd, I HATE that...) and say it was the lung who had migrated to the Realms (and did so fleeing a holocaust on their world, which is quite a bit different then some of the other interloper stories). The Anok (whoever they may have been at this point) were a powerful group and able to become the peers of their Imaskari allies, not mere slaves as others had. They also brought some of their gods with them, which gave them a strong bargaining position (and one that the Imaskari obviously learned from). The assumption must still be made that someone interloped, if only because of that errant entry in P&P.
Expect a re-write of the eastern history soon - I've had some 'revelations' lately (mostly due to the input of others here - my thanks for that, fellow scribes). I may just use the terms 'Anokans' and 'Haltai' for the two groups, and just disregard the whole Shou-Lung thing (which was already defined as meaning Receiver of the Dragon).
EDIT: I have a new idea, and I want to fully formulate it before I post about it - perhaps a MUCH better (and better tied to canon) variation of the whole Shou/Lung/Imaskar story. I can use the meager (yet helpful) history of Guge! Definately a Fey (Spirit Folk) tie-in there; probably worth starting a new thread for. Let me sleep on it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2011 03:22:15 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 07:34:46
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| @markustay, the picture with the kneeling human being given his sword by Hobgoblins seems to be from kingdoms of kalamar - the kargi name of the picture indicates it. as far as i remember one of the hobgoblin tribes / kingdoms there is named Kargi |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 11:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
thanks for this alisttair
You're welcome . |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:44:04
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Yes, I was wondering about that as well - Thanx.
I just remembered Elmonster - isn't he a Hobgoblin? Unfortunately, many idiots on the web named themselves that, so trying to find the canon reference was too much work. I can't remember what he was, or what issue of Dragon he was in (an April issue, me thinks).
As for the {large creature} riders - I used a pic of the Rhin-guy, but I was just thinking in terms of a visual reference - I think the Grizzly Mastodon (3eMM2) would make a better candidate, given the far-northern locale (although there is a Wooly Rhino in one of the books as well). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2011 18:50:14 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, I was wondering about that as well - Thanx.
I just remembered Elmonster - isn't he a Hobgoblin? Unfortunately, many idiots on the web named themselves that, so trying to find the canon reference was too much work. I can't remember what he was, or what issue of Dragon he was in (an April issue, me thinks).
Elmonster. Oh my. I never heard that one before. Probalby from a Dragon pre-my subscription.
But Hobgoblins...they're spider-man villains |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 20:00:15
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That's why I pay homage to them - like I said, my bat-riding Shamans look very much like him (right down to the Pumpkin-bombs!)
Here's another option for an elite group of cavalry. A bit of overkill there, and I don't find them fitting for the region - I picture it being more of a late-pleistocene kind of region (I'm thinking I'd rather see most of the dino's in Anchormé or Osse, or even in a Athas-stye treatment of Zakhara).
Still searching for that damned flyer.....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2011 20:03:19 |
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Topic |
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Again... Questions about Hobgoblins / Goblinoids
