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 How does an orc kingdom, like Many Arrows exist?
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Wenin
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Posted - 22 Feb 2011 :  16:12:52  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
How does an orc kingdom like Many Arrows continue to exist? In my campaign, I'm setting up the return of the Orc/Ogre kingdom of Thar, and am perplexed by the thought of a lasting kingdom.

I would imagine that an orc kingdom must continually attack its neighbors, successfully. This is both in order to keep their population in check, and to supply the kingdom with needed resources. Now from what I understand, the kingdom of Many Arrows did not do this, and that instead trade was established with the orc kingdom.


The biggest issue I see is... how exactly would you feed a non-raiding, stationary orc kingdom? Especially when it exists within the typically desolate lands that orcs are pushed into.

Orcs (at least the typical orc) does not farm, nor do they raise livestock. They are hunters/gatherers, which do not support large populations, which is what seditary orc populations produce.

Could they really be seen as having slave farms?

Human serf like farmers?

Orogs are known for their metal working, so they do have the capability of producing goods, for the food.... but relying on another nation to feed an orc nation does not seem like a sustainable situation.

In my campaign I'm actually going to return the orcs back to their 2nd Edition Lawful Evil alignment status. At a Lawful alignment, they are more plyable, in my opinion. I'm doing this change through the actual campaign itself, and not just declaring it. I'm explaining it that there was an event 8000 years ago that resulted in Gruumsh loosing a piece of his divinity in a fight with Corellon. Since that event Gruumsh has not cared (even less than would be expected for an evil orc god =)) about his faithful orcs... allowing them to run amok.

The campaign then ties in the creation of the Many Arrows kingdom with a kingdom I'm creating in Thar, and then another GM in the group is going to run a campaign where the players are all orcs... and go down towards the Border Kingdoms and creates an Orc kingdom down there as well. My thought is that you can't have a lasting kingdom when you're chaotic in nature.

Though there are the drow... =)

So your thoughts?

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.

Galuf the Dwarf
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Posted - 22 Feb 2011 :  16:34:43  Show Profile Send Galuf the Dwarf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll at least try to tackle the purpose for the Nation of Many Arrows existing.

Well, for one thing, there's the influence of Gruumsh. He Who Never Sleeps extols war without civility, but at the same time, he wouldn't want his worshipers to fight each other into oblivion, because that would just be the mistake that would spell his downfall as a god.

Now, this is more based on my gut feels than anything, but Gruumsh would more than likely see Many Arrows as a vehicle for giving him a stronger worship base than usual, especially with demigods in his pantheon like Ilneval gaining increasing worship amongst demi-orc beings like Tanarruks and Ogrillons. Mountain Orcs (the subrace of orcs in the North) worship Gruumsh above all other deities, so this the One-Eyed God's strength in numbers as far as worshipers.

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Markustay
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Posted - 22 Feb 2011 :  20:07:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Canonically, Obould was at war with the REAL Orc kingdom of the north - King Graul of the Ice Mountains. He was a vassal to Graul, and usurped his power. Grguch attempted to do the same to Obould. Page 9 of Savage frontier states "King Graul is the most powerful of the known northern Orc kings". Note two things about that statement - it tells us that there are other Orc Kingdoms in the north, and it also insinuates (the word 'known') that there could plenty more humans are unaware of.

A little off-topic - I will get back to that - but first it's soap-box time:

#1 It is the nature of humans to disrespect the borders of other races - this is a historic fact (I was going to provide examples, but I don't want to go down that road again). For some reason, humans seem to be more respectful of those who 'look like them'. What that means is that in a fantasy setting, humans completely disregard both the borders and authority of humanoid groups. There are many 'kingdoms' of non-humans who's territories over-lap with human groups (Najara, for example).

#2 FR Humans are NOT Earth humans, and they have had to deal with demi-humans, which has caused them to re-evaluate their normal tendencies of ignoring other races. This has caused the above (#1) point to be amplified, in that FR human kingdoms don't even draw clear-cut borders on their maps (something unheard of here on modern Earth). Since its hard to tell what Elves live in what forest, or what Dwarves and Gnomes live in what hills/mountains, such well-defined lines can't exist, and don't.

#3 And the above two bring me to my point - there are hundreds of Orc kingdoms in the Realms - I come across mention of them all the time in my reading - it's just that humans (and demi-humans) fail to recognize them as such. Obould, on the other hand, forced them to do so (rather reluctantly). If you were to look at a map of The Realms drawn by one of king Graul's retainers, it would probably shock most humans, showing only Orcish kingdoms where human ones ought to be. Don't trust the maps - they were drawn by humans.

And now I can get back to the OT: The KoMA exists both above and below ground, much like a Dwarf's. The entire Spine of the World Obould counts as 'his'... but LOTS of other creatures live there, from dragons and packs of Yeti, to organized groups like other goblinoids, Giants & Giantkin (I know of one Firbolg Kingdom there that's canon, and I'm not talking about Hartsvale), Underdark groups like drow, Duergar illithids, etc..., Uthgardt & Rengardt (Glacial) barbarians, numerous trolls and other monsterous types, powerful Mages and their minions (the north is rife with their citadels), extra-planer intrusions varying from Malaugrym & Fiends to all sorts of oddities, etc, etc, etc...

Without bothering to fight humans and demi-humans, the Orcs are still at constant war with their environment and those around them. They are also kept busy building the kingdom's infrastructure (which I believe we saw a bit of in a Drizzt short story). They farm, fish, gather resources like wood and ore (they do smith their own metals), and do all those other things that people without the benefit of technology must.

They LIVE, plain and simple... its all they can do. When Orcs don't have to worry about humans busting down their doors and killing their families (you know... like what happens in almost every adventure) they go about their lives as best they can, and hope to simply see another moonrise.

The problem with your logic is that you are not thinking of them as people, but rather as the canon-fodder D&D has made them out to be. Tolkien's Orcs may have been of that variety, but FR's Orcs are thinking (and caring!) beings. They are trying to build a civilization practically from scratch, and against their normal instincts (which are infused in them by their gods/shaman) - that is a full-time job by itself.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Feb 2011 00:42:16
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BEAST
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Posted - 22 Feb 2011 :  23:29:40  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The KOMA exists because WOTC decided that an exceptional orc leader could have the vision to want to give it a try; he could cram his way into other races' territory through sheer force of will; those other races would eventually tire of fighting him and just leave him alone; and he could also possess the charisma to convince a lot of other orcs to give peace and stable civilization a chance.

I don't recall the agricultural issue being answered yet in any text. They would have to farm and ranch quite a bit, though.

And there are still occasional fights and raids here and there. But the king does his best to distance himself from those upstarts, and then to put them down.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 23 Feb 2011 :  03:13:26  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with MT on this one...but I'll add an additional bit:

Orcs war against each other already, so instituting a Tribal sort of Feudalism would work very well. The various tribes would be able to war against each other as often as they wanted...so long as their obligations to the King were met.

Also, just because Many Arrows doesn't attack its neighbors, doesn't mean that some Orc Chiefs in that Kingdom don't send their warriors into surrounding lands in a manner of European Robber Barons.

There is plenty of outlet for orcish aggression available...even mercenary work for various evil organizations; which are PLENTIFUL in the North.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Feb 2011 :  04:23:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally find it unlikely that a deity of war, strength, and conquest would pick a mortal champion to turn his people into farmers who more-or-less get along with their neighbors.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 23 Feb 2011 :  05:31:29  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I personally find it unlikely that a deity of war, strength, and conquest would pick a mortal champion to turn his people into farmers who more-or-less get along with their neighbors.



Aye! They have to at least be at each other's throats very often.

They might have goblins, kobolds or such as slave farmers...but that is as far as I would go for it. I can see orcs as weaponsmiths, armor makers...whatever, as long as it has an application toward war.

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BEAST
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Posted - 23 Feb 2011 :  06:47:25  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I personally find it unlikely that a deity of war, strength, and conquest would pick a mortal champion to turn his people into farmers who more-or-less get along with their neighbors.

Yep.

And I don't see why that god would pick the king who somehow convinced other orcs to go along with it--instead of continuing to demonstrate war, strength, and conquest--as his Chosen, and later ascended Exarch, either.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
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Quale
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Posted - 23 Feb 2011 :  11:19:25  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't see orcs planting something, but having herds of rothe is fine.

In my world tough orcs are closer to demons and fey, eating human flesh is more a spiritual need than physiological.
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Wenin
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Posted - 23 Feb 2011 :  14:53:02  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad for all the replies, and Mark you're post brings a lot.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

They farm, fish, gather resources like wood and ore (they do smith their own metals), and do all those other things that people without the benefit of technology must.


The only orcs I've ever heard to farm are Ondonti. Where have you read that FR orcs are for farmers?

I agree with Wooly. The way Gruumsh has been portrayed, he is not one to suffer weakness in his people.

On the issue of Dwarfs, I guess I have a similar aversion to seeing them as "farmers". =) But I know that they farm mushroom fields and such.... not sure where I got that info though.

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
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Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Feb 2011 :  03:59:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought it was in that Realms of the Elves story - some good 'Orcs building a civilization' stuff in there, with much deep musings by Drizzt on the subject (what else is new?) Just finished re-reading it.

I clearly remember something about 'Orc farms' - it may have been in [i]The Orc King[/]i - I will go through that novel again tonight. There is a great scene near the end where two orcs are out gathering firewood, and one is complaining that "my wife is gonna kill me" - VERY human, sounds like.

Of course, two seconds later the evil humans, Dwarves (and one halfling) murder them. Two defenseless commoners out alone getting killed by 'monsters' - kinda funny, huh?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2011 04:18:24
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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 25 Feb 2011 :  04:17:33  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

I'm glad for all the replies, and Mark you're post brings a lot.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

They farm, fish, gather resources like wood and ore (they do smith their own metals), and do all those other things that people without the benefit of technology must.


The only orcs I've ever heard to farm are Ondonti. Where have you read that FR orcs are for farmers?

I agree with Wooly. The way Gruumsh has been portrayed, he is not one to suffer weakness in his people.

On the issue of Dwarfs, I guess I have a similar aversion to seeing them as "farmers". =) But I know that they farm mushroom fields and such.... not sure where I got that info though.



Well... while I agree that Gruumsh is a pretty savage Power, I tend to see him in the same light as I see Corellon or Moradin; His portfolio is no more 'Hunting and War' than Corellon's is really 'Magic and Protection' or Moradin's is 'Smithing and Creation'. IMO, they represent 'Orcs', 'Elves', and 'Dwarves' first and foremost. If most Faerunian elves became a debased, savage group of hunter-gatherers, I could see Corellon devolving with them; likewise, if orcs become more 'civilized' and take up farming and herding, I could see Gruumsh evolving into a Power of (at first) Conquest and Expansion and (eventually) Defense and Order.
I totally see your points, gentlemen, but I'm inclined to agree with Marcus; both because it seems very plausible to me and b/c it makes for a great opportunity for orcs to be more than 'low level KOS baddies'.

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco
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Wenin
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Posted - 25 Feb 2011 :  04:18:54  Show Profile Send Wenin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well those are two books I haven't read yet. =) They're going onto my reading list now. =)

I'm holding back calling you an Orc Lover Markustay, cause I wouldn't mean it... but I still find the concept of there being one funny. Though I'm actually an lover of humanoids. =) Before this orc kingdom campaign, my last DnD campaign (many a years back) involved a humanoid race I called the Durgob. They were spelljamming Hobgoblins, invading Faerun with the goal of capturing Sembia as a new kingdom. =) Oh to be young and silly again. =)

Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR.
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BEAST
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Posted - 01 Mar 2011 :  20:35:29  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wenin

I'm holding back calling you an Orc Lover Markustay, cause I wouldn't mean it... but I still find the concept of there being one funny.

Oh, he so is an Orc Lover! In fact, he should probably request to have his CK title changed to that.

What I still don't get is how Obould retained his Gruumshish blessings when the orc king decided to become civilized, and even ascended as an exarch, while Gruumsh is still described as a god of conquest and raiding in the FRCG (4E). Obould sounds completely, diametrically opposed to his god, and vice versa. And this makes me wonder how the little kingdom that Obie built could thrive as it has.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Ayrik
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Posted - 01 Mar 2011 :  21:26:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The orcs abandon their creator, Great Gruumsh. His one eye will burn the visage of fury, hatred, and vengeance whensoever his true followers shall behold his betrayers. If Gruumsh commands an unholy war then orc will slaughter orc and blood will spill freely. Endless orc war. I expect the peaceful orcs (porcs) will be genocidally exterminated rather quickly when the fighting orcs (forcs) thunder across the North destroying crops and livestock.

Sissy orcs ... is this why big evil dragons have downgraded to kobold sycophants?

[/Ayrik]
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BEAST
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Posted - 02 Mar 2011 :  14:41:46  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That reminds me of a scene from Gauntlgrym. And I paraphrase:

(spoiler)
"Orcs," Drizzt said.

Bruenor startled, suddenly awake. "Wha--where?"

"Forks," Drizzt went on. "It's time for morningfeast."

(/spoiler)


"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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ErskineF
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Posted - 20 Nov 2011 :  06:37:49  Show Profile  Visit ErskineF's Homepage Send ErskineF a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thought I would bump this back to the top as it ties in with my earlier question, and I'm basically attempting to do the same thing as Wenin with the Kingdom of Thar. I ran the Sons of Gruumsh campaign, but placed the Tomb of Vorbyx (from Mysteries of the Moonsea) beneath Xul-Jarak. The PCs managed to defeat Thrull, descended into the tomb, and very helpfully reassembled the Hammer of Vorbyx, which summoned Vorbyx back to Faerun. As it turns out, he wasn't dead, he was just resting... on his home plane in the Abyss. I've made him a half-fiend/half-ogre mage with sorcerer levels. The party was able to survive the encounter, but Vorbyx is now loose upon the Realms, and keen to re-establish his Kingdom.

So.... Like Wenin, I'm now trying to flesh out the demographics and economics of the humanoid tribes in Thar, so I'll know just what Vorbyx has to work with. What folks have said about farming orcs being a contradiction of their warlike culture seems a bit odd to me. Can anyone name a historical human culture that was able to conquer an empire without having mastered the rudiments of agriculture? The only example I can think of is the Mongols, but they were nomadic pastoralists, which, though not farming, is still a form of agriculture, and a more highly evolved type of economy than that of hunter-gatherer.

No, orcs cannot be conquerors without mastering some form of agriculture. An army marches on its stomach. Gruumsh would know that. That's not to say that the warrior orcs are out in the fields planting and plowing--or herding sheep, heaven forbid. That's what women, children and slaves are for. So the question isn't whether orcs have agriculture, it's what kind of agriculture is appropriate to the orcs of a particular region, and how does the work get done?

I'm working on my own answer with regard to Thar, but I'm interested in any thoughts others might have on the subject.



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Icelander
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Posted - 20 Nov 2011 :  15:25:20  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I personally find it unlikely that a deity of war, strength, and conquest would pick a mortal champion to turn his people into farmers who more-or-less get along with their neighbors.


During most of history, having the most food has correlated pretty neatly with having the biggest armies and the most power.

If you take any culture from our world that has gone down in history as conquerors, you may be sure that the vast majority of them were either farmers or, very rarely, herdsmen as their 'day job'.

We remember the legions of Rome and the impis of Shaka Zulu, but it is important to keep in mind that the Romans who marched to war were farmer's sons fighting for a farm of their own and that the men of the impis spent their childhoods and adolescence as cowherds and they fought for more cows and grazing land.

Having 30,000 warriors but no way to feed them means you don't have an army, you have a starving horde. Such hordes don't conquer, they sprawl around, desperately seeking something to eat, until enough of them have died so that you can feed the survivors.

Obould is just trying to break the cycle of defeat and suffering that in the North have been locked into since time immemorial. He wants to have full granaries and herds of cattle, so he can go to war when he chooses and not when he is forced into it. Wanting to build a strong kingdom doesn't have to make him less of an orc, less of a conqueror or less evil.

Individual GMs may want to use him as a heroic figure, an orc with a sense of honour. They may prefer him as a Lawful Evil warlord, building a lasting kingdom and playing the game of diplomacy all as a means to further his own power. Or he might be a more morally ambivalent figure, a champion of his own race, wanting to earn them 'a place in the sun'. No matter how GMs see him, though, building a strong kingdom that is self-sufficient in food is an important first step before Obould can truly accomplish anything.

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Edited by - Icelander on 20 Nov 2011 15:25:59
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 20 Nov 2011 :  16:32:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I personally find it unlikely that a deity of war, strength, and conquest would pick a mortal champion to turn his people into farmers who more-or-less get along with their neighbors.


During most of history, having the most food has correlated pretty neatly with having the biggest armies and the most power.

If you take any culture from our world that has gone down in history as conquerors, you may be sure that the vast majority of them were either farmers or, very rarely, herdsmen as their 'day job'.

We remember the legions of Rome and the impis of Shaka Zulu, but it is important to keep in mind that the Romans who marched to war were farmer's sons fighting for a farm of their own and that the men of the impis spent their childhoods and adolescence as cowherds and they fought for more cows and grazing land.

Having 30,000 warriors but no way to feed them means you don't have an army, you have a starving horde. Such hordes don't conquer, they sprawl around, desperately seeking something to eat, until enough of them have died so that you can feed the survivors.

Obould is just trying to break the cycle of defeat and suffering that in the North have been locked into since time immemorial. He wants to have full granaries and herds of cattle, so he can go to war when he chooses and not when he is forced into it. Wanting to build a strong kingdom doesn't have to make him less of an orc, less of a conqueror or less evil.

Individual GMs may want to use him as a heroic figure, an orc with a sense of honour. They may prefer him as a Lawful Evil warlord, building a lasting kingdom and playing the game of diplomacy all as a means to further his own power. Or he might be a more morally ambivalent figure, a champion of his own race, wanting to earn them 'a place in the sun'. No matter how GMs see him, though, building a strong kingdom that is self-sufficient in food is an important first step before Obould can truly accomplish anything.



Building a strong kingdom is one thing. Building a strong kingdom, then turning your people who have never even thought of growing things into farmers is another. Turning a people who exist for conquest into settled neighbors is also not something that promotes conquest or war.

In service of a deity that promotes strength, conquest, and war, Obould molded his orcs into people who don't demonstrate their strength, who don't try to conquer other lands, and who don't wage war on anybody. That's like a priest of Tempus preaching pacifism, or a priest of Mask saying you should pay for things instead of stealing them, or a priest of Cyric asking "Can't we all just get along?".

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Icelander
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Posted - 20 Nov 2011 :  17:23:37  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Building a strong kingdom is one thing. Building a strong kingdom, then turning your people who have never even thought of growing things into farmers is another. Turning a people who exist for conquest into settled neighbors is also not something that promotes conquest or war.

Orcs in the North have tried warfare without having any economy to back themselves up. It did not result in any conquests, it resulted in them dying en masse about once a generation.

Continuing to beat one's collective head against the stone is not the act of a strong leader and conqueror. Turning orcs who consume more than they produce into orcs that produce a surplus that can be used for war is.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

In service of a deity that promotes strength, conquest, and war, Obould molded his orcs into people who don't demonstrate their strength, who don't try to conquer other lands, and who don't wage war on anybody. That's like a priest of Tempus preaching pacifism, or a priest of Mask saying you should pay for things instead of stealing them, or a priest of Cyric asking "Can't we all just get along?".


Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name, there existed no lore that claimed the Kingdom of Many Arrows was pacifistic. Indeed, it was founded in conquest.

Obould's and the kingdom's future is whatever the GM wants it to be.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 20 Nov 2011 :  18:12:02  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Orcs farming appears to be a be issue..

Rome started building its empire by sending farmers out to war after the crops were planted. It was a part time army for most of its first battles and wars. With increasing successes, the number of slaves grew in numbers to work the farms, allowing the Empire to develop a full time army.

The orcs clearly would not be adverse to having slaves.

From 2nd Edition Core D&D rules
quote:
Ecology: Orcs have an average lifespan of 40 years. They have a gestation period of 10 months and produce two to three offspring per birth. Infant mortality is high. Orcs are carnivores, but prefer game meats or livestock to demihumans and humanoids.
It is said that orcs have no natural enemies, but they work hard to make up for this lack. Orc tribes have fearsome names such as Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, and Dripping Blade.
Orcs are skilled miners who can spot new and unusual constructions 35% of the time and sloping passages 25% of the time. They are also excellent weaponsmiths.


Orcs are meat eaters in this version, thus the idea of rothe or other meat ranches could make sense, using slaves to do most of the actual work. There is no need to plant a seed, unless it is to feed the slaves. The slaves would though need to do this in what ever spare time their masters would permit them.

I would also point to mining and weapon crafts, orcs clearly are able to generate Intelligent members of the race. These members would be trading weapons for food others gather. They in turn barter food they get to the miners for the ore.

All that is needed for a kingdom is a strong enough power, that provides food, weapons and some degree of nation law. There can be much that the local tribes decide for themselves, but in major choices or disputes appeal to the king could exist.

As for the main listed orc deity, that clearly does not prevent some following a different deity, there must be a few others for orcs that get little notice. Further there is no reason some could follow another deity. In one play, a captured Drow I was involved in the Priestess has started the conversion of that tribe to that of following Eilistraee. Oh killing the Shaman in self defense, healing the chief, winning the adoration of the chief's daughter all helped. The Drow is officially still a slave to be sold or ransomed, however became a leader of the tribe, by words and deeds. She has become to valuable to sell as far as the tribe is concerned, she being on a Run decided to stay longer then the year if needful. Should things fall apart, the Drow has a very good chance to escape the tribe as she has made many friends and those too Evil bent find death, in raids, trying to change the new order by leadership challenges.

Any orc kingdom guided by wisdom, has a greater chance to survive and even grow.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 20 Nov 2011 :  18:31:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Building a strong kingdom is one thing. Building a strong kingdom, then turning your people who have never even thought of growing things into farmers is another. Turning a people who exist for conquest into settled neighbors is also not something that promotes conquest or war.

Orcs in the North have tried warfare without having any economy to back themselves up. It did not result in any conquests, it resulted in them dying en masse about once a generation.

Continuing to beat one's collective head against the stone is not the act of a strong leader and conqueror. Turning orcs who consume more than they produce into orcs that produce a surplus that can be used for war is.


The same thing can be done by conquering someone else, and using slave labor to produce war materiel and food -- you know, like orcs have done since Gruumsh first said "let there be orcs!"

Gruumsh did not make his children to be smart, canny warriors -- from orcy eyes, that's a weakness shared by softer races like elves. Gruumsh wanted strong, savage warriors, and his children have always followed that mandate.

Obould turned Gruumsh's kids away from the way Gruumsh made them. They are not following the way of Gruumsh.

Dukagsh turned his orcs into smart and canny warriors... And they are still just as warlike and agressive. They have taken entire worlds, and they didn't have to get along with their neighbors to do it.

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

In service of a deity that promotes strength, conquest, and war, Obould molded his orcs into people who don't demonstrate their strength, who don't try to conquer other lands, and who don't wage war on anybody. That's like a priest of Tempus preaching pacifism, or a priest of Mask saying you should pay for things instead of stealing them, or a priest of Cyric asking "Can't we all just get along?".


Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name, there existed no lore that claimed the Kingdom of Many Arrows was pacifistic. Indeed, it was founded in conquest.

Obould's and the kingdom's future is whatever the GM wants it to be.



It was founded in conquest, and then turned into a nation of farmers. 100 years later, the kingdom is still there, trading with its neighbors and occasionally being friends with them. I don't like the 4E Realms, either, but it's still official canon that the future Exarch of war and conquest turned his people into farmers who have not waged war on anyone other than themselves.

In my opinion, orcs could form a relatively peaceful, stable nation -- but they'd need a strong leader and isolation from other races to do it.

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Icelander
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Posted - 20 Nov 2011 :  18:52:52  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The same thing can be done by conquering someone else, and using slave labor to produce war materiel and food -- you know, like orcs have done since Gruumsh first said "let there be orcs!"

A farmer who employs slaves is still a farmer. Orcs overseeing human slaves like Romans overseeing foreign slaves on a latifunda are orc farmers.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Gruumsh did not make his children to be smart, canny warriors -- from orcy eyes, that's a weakness shared by softer races like elves. Gruumsh wanted strong, savage warriors, and his children have always followed that mandate.

Obould turned Gruumsh's kids away from the way Gruumsh made them. They are not following the way of Gruumsh.

Gruumsh and orcs were Lawful Evil until the Wizards of the Coast. The dogma of Gruumsh appears to be that orcs are supposed to be strong, warlike and successful. The elves and later humans stole the best lands from them, but they can take them back.

The Kingdom of Many Arrows was entirely in line with Gruumsh's goals. What happened in WotC's new setting is irrelevant.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It was founded in conquest, and then turned into a nation of farmers. 100 years later, the kingdom is still there, trading with its neighbors and occasionally being friends with them. I don't like the 4E Realms, either, but it's still official canon that the future Exarch of war and conquest turned his people into farmers who have not waged war on anyone other than themselves.


It's official canon that every god is every other god or something. Nevermind that. If we want to discuss the Realms and have the conversation make any sense at all, we have to leave this new setting out of it.

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Halidan
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Posted - 21 Nov 2011 :  02:48:09  Show Profile  Visit Halidan's Homepage Send Halidan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know much about the Kindom of Many Arrows, but I've done plenty of work on the orcs and part-orc races that inhabit the Mines of Tethyamar.While the orcs aren't good farmers, as Icelander said
quote:
A farmer who employs slaves is still a farmer. Orcs overseeing human slaves like Romans overseeing foreign slaves on a latifunda are orc farmers.
Tethyamar would have dwarven fungus farms, fishing lakes and other dwarven agriculture caves. The concuring orcs wouldn't destroy these sources of food, they'd simply assign slaves with the proper skills to maintain them. These slaves could range from goblins to daleladers.

Meanwhile, the orcs would start hunting in the Desertmouth Mountains, the underdark ajacent to Tethyamar, the Border Forest, the northwestern Swordlands of the Anoroch desert, and (when possible) Daggerdale. Hunting is a very orcish tradition. An orc on worg back could cover a large hunting range, and using the combine skills of worg and orc, would be able to bring back substantial food. It is probable that the orcs would overhunt these areas, but the orcs aren't stupid, and can learn from their mistakes. They would eventually form a plan of hunting rotation that alows the herd beasts to replenish themselves.

Given the carnivore nature of the orcish races, I have come to the conclusion that a large orcish nation could form and survive. It would take an area initionaly rich in resources (like an concured dwarven mega-city like Tethyamar) to give the orcs time to develope an viable hunting pattern. Once that is accomplished, the nation can fed itself and either turn towards other conquests or have tribes battle for dominance without risking starvation.


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Of the Moon
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Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"

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BEAST
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Posted - 21 Nov 2011 :  17:59:54  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name, there existed no lore that claimed the Kingdom of Many Arrows was pacifistic. Indeed, it was founded in conquest.

Actually, there existed no lore on the Kingdom of Many-Arrows until RAS & WOTC created it--as part of the 3E Forgotten Realms.

In TSR's 1E & 2E, there was the Citadel of Many-Arrows, which was stereotypically orcish. The Citadel was conquered by Warcrown dwarves at the end of 2E. Though Obould fancied himself a king, there was no Kingdom of Many-Arrows, at that point.

Then, in WOTC's 3E, Obould founded Dark-Arrow Keep, where he spent years amassing orcish troops to launch another stereotypical war (Silver Marches). There still was no kingdom for this would-be king.

And then later still in 3E, Obould launched said war in grand fashion (The Thousand Orcs). He conquered and occupied lands in the name of Gruumsh. During this campaign, Obould envisioned the formation of a kingdom which would eventually trade with its neighbor nations, as opposed to conquering them (The Lone Drow). This war ended in a stalemate, with Obould occupying his stolen land and fortifications beginning (The Two Swords).

In early-to-mid-1372 DR, no one knew if Obould would strike out again, or hold fast (FRCS 3E).

But then in The Orc King, Obould turned over a new leaf, in that he overthrew an upstart orc-ogre warlord who waged war anew on Mithral Hall, and then signed the Treaty of Garumn's Gorge with King Bruenor, formally recognizing the Kingdom of Many-Arrows.

So Obould's lands were taken in conquest, but his Kingdom was founded in peace. AFAIK, the only existing lore on said Kingdom says so.

That is, unless you are somehow counting your own personal campaign notes as "lore".

quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

The Kingdom of Many Arrows was entirely in line with Gruumsh's goals. What happened in WotC's new setting is irrelevant.

Which part of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, founded on a treaty of non-conquest, was in line with Gruumsh's goals of conquest? When Obould actually assisted King Bruenor in stopping a would-be conqueror in Grguch, how was that in line with Gruumsh's goal of conquest?

(I don't have access to my books right now, but it would help if someone could cite any specific passages from "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" and The Orc King in which Obould considered his kingdom to already be in existence, as opposed to merely being a future dream.)

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Icelander
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Posted - 21 Nov 2011 :  18:14:44  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST


Actually, there existed no lore on the Kingdom of Many-Arrows until RAS & WOTC created it--as part of the 3E Forgotten Realms.

Yes and then they stopped supporting the Realms and published a setting with the same name but few other similarities. In that setting, the Kingdom of Many Arrows is apparently more peaceful than most human kingdoms. This is, however, not stated in the FRCS or the Silver Marches. In those sources, it is entirely the decision of the GM how Obould will handle his conquests so far.

quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

Which part of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, founded on a treaty of non-conquest, was in line with Gruumsh's goals of conquest?

When you slaughter your enemies and take their lands for their own and then get the survivors to agree not to try to take them back if you promise not to try to take more land, you've won a war of conquest.

Obould made massive territorial gains and by being intelligent enough to engage in realpolitik, he managed to keep those gains for long enough to be able to forge his orcs into something more than a horde. If he can create a kingdom with a strong economy, he'll be able to field a real army, one capable of fighting an extended war.

Obould saw that orcs in the North had been locked into a vicious cycle of defeat. Their traditional means of warfare made them unable to win any lasting victories. Obould had the wisdom, strength and willpower to change this. Now, the GM can use him as an antagonist, ally or a mystery with unclear goals, but the fact remains, his actions make orcs stronger. Gruumsh appears to recognise this.

quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

When Obould actually assisted King Bruenor in stopping a would-be conqueror in Grguch, how was that in line with Gruumsh's goal of conquest?


It prevented the orcish forces from going 'a bridge too far'. Taking land from your enemies and then failing to hold it as you are driven screaming into your mountain hovels might be stereotypically orcish in the North, but it is not a winning strategy.

A commander who manages to make every single potential foe unite against him at the same time has failed in his strategy. Fighting a war is about more than just swinging swords around. Obould managed to conquer and to rule the lands he conquered. That makes him more successful than any orcish warlord in the North for a very long time. Gruumsh rewards strength and success.

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Therise
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Posted - 21 Nov 2011 :  20:39:00  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Yes and then they stopped supporting the Realms and published a setting with the same name but few other similarities. In that setting, the Kingdom of Many Arrows is apparently more peaceful than most human kingdoms. This is, however, not stated in the FRCS or the Silver Marches. In those sources, it is entirely the decision of the GM how Obould will handle his conquests so far.

I strongly agree with this. I think the 4E Realms is so dramatically different that it's important to really start thinking of it as an entirely different setting. I'm not saying this to be divisive or edition war-like, I really do think it's a totally separate and different thing down to its cosmology and conceptual underpinnings. There are similarities in names, geography, even some characters, but it's radically different.

In the new Realms, with this peaceful Orc kingdom, you're essentially required to view the orcs in a different way. No longer are they monsters, even as clever tribal brutes. They're not a "horde" in the classic Tokien sense. These are more similar to Warcraft orcs or Star Trek Klingons, who might either be allies or enemies but are still thinking and rational beings. To have a "kingdom" you need to have diversity in labor. Not all can be murderous warriors. They would have to farm, or at least have massive numbers of slave farmers. They would need more than a war machine, more than just breeding pits.

Now I'm not saying that all orcs were bloodthirsty monsters in the past editions, not at all. I'm well aware of the "more civilized" mercenary orc tribes between the East and the West, for example. But this is the first time they have evolved toward a shared-land and "neighbor states" mentality. So too, their god Gruumsh must be seen in a radically different light. No longer simply the barbaric enemy of Corellon, Gruumsh must be seen in more of a "Tempos" kind of way, otherwise his worship and this new kingdom really don't make a lot of sense.

Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Nov 2011 :  03:00:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps we should ease away from any further commentary on whether or not the 4E Realms is the setting that went before... That's a discussion that always gets ugly, quick.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 22 Nov 2011 :  03:49:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've said it before: if you keep humanizing all the monsters in D&D then one day there'll be no monsters left. And when there's no monsters left to kill, heroic people will have nothing left to kill except each other.

The odd stray renegade orc, or drow, or whatever, perhaps even a whole tribe of them, I can tolerate. When vast populations choose to abandon their gods, their culture, everything they know ... merely to emulate upstart human societies (which are, incidentally, hardly exemplary enough to be worth emulating) then I have to shake my head. It's exactly like Talos abandoning his powers of destruction to take up gardening, or like Tempus abandoning war to learn needlework and commerce.

[/Ayrik]
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Icelander
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Posted - 22 Nov 2011 :  04:10:14  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Perhaps we should ease away from any further commentary on whether or not the 4E Realms is the setting that went before... That's a discussion that always gets ugly, quick.


My point was simply that if we meant to discuss the Realms, we ought to keep the new lore, confusing and inconsistent with the past, out of it.

There is no way to rationally reconcile the new Realms with the old. The orcs of 3.x were different from the old, yes, but not as different as that entirely new species that 4e calls orcs.

I know that WotC has ruled that new lore trumps older lore, but for my part, I prefer to shoot for internal consistency. Lore that can fit alongside the great mass of material that collectively makes up the Forgotten Realms is the lore I'll use.

The subject of this specific scroll is how the orcs of Many Arrows manage to survive. It is possible to give one answer for the species that Ed called 'orcs'. That is the one I gave, i.e. that they presumably employ the numerous prisoners captured in their wars as slaves and learn from them to farm, ranch and so forth.

It may be possible to provide another answer for the 4e race known as 'orcs', but I'm not competent to give that answer. At any rate, it is not going to be the same answer.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 22 Nov 2011 :  04:14:53  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I've said it before: if you keep humanizing all the monsters in D&D then one day there'll be no monsters left. And when there's no monsters left to kill, heroic people will have nothing left to kill except each other.

The odd stray renegade orc, or drow, or whatever, perhaps even a whole tribe of them, I can tolerate. When vast populations choose to abandon their gods, their culture, everything they know ... merely to emulate upstart human societies (which are, incidentally, hardly exemplary enough to be worth emulating) then I have to shake my head. It's exactly like Talos abandoning his powers of destruction to take up gardening, or like Tempus abandoning war to learn needlework and commerce.



A tribe clan exists among the orcs. Maybe just family, maybe imitating elves or dwarfs, oh even human. There again what is so good about being human ( Zent and Tray come to mind) ? Humanoid as orcs, elves are clearly would have some human patterns. You want orcs to be something like slimes and modes? There are other monsters out there that fit that terror. Elves are a terror to many, humans are a terror to many, and dwarfs are a terror and always at war with orcs.

Which of these races would you claim are pretending to be human?

I would wait an answer however I suspect it is along the line already posted. Orcs were always something to kill and how dare any consider that indeed they have their out culture and laws.

What prevents Intelligent humanoids from building a kingdom, their skin color?

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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