Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 War !
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 5

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29796 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2012 :  15:38:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was going to wage war across Faerūn, I'd want more than 5000 troops.


If we go by 'brute force' alone, yes. But, 'wars' are not just hurling spells at each other, or swinging swords. Manipulation is also considered a subtle form of war, for like war in its bloody form, goal of manipulation is the same: to throw a realm off balance and eventually conquer it.


Irrelevant. You'd still need more than 5000 people to sway every single government on the planet, and to maintain that influence.

Besides, at some point, you'll need force -- either to directly use it or to threaten to. And again, for that, you need more than 5000 troops.


The Shadovar took Sembia with less than 5000 troops. Granted it's not the entire world, but one realm at a time is way better than trying to conquer them all at once; and for that, 500o troops may be sufficient, depending on how well you use them.



Nope. Even going one at a time, you're still going to need a lot of people to maintain your rule -- even if it's just viziers and functionaries who ensure your interests are maintained. And at some point, you'll need men-at-arms -- and most likely, you'll need them more than once. And if you need them in Khazari, that 5000 troops stationed in Westgate is pretty useless.

So we remain with a need for more than 5000 troops, to conquer the world -- or even just the continent.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6166 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2012 :  16:25:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My understanding is that the Shadovar took Sembia through largely non-military means. Shadowy diplomacy, manipulation, negotiation, natural and supernatural disasters, shadowcloak & dagger sort of stuff, propaganda campaigns, an opportunistic religious war, a war of economic attrition.

But even if one were to just evaluate these nations in military terms ... Shadovar troops are incredibly mobile and require no logistical support, they have two flying fortresses, mobile units like the Kraken, and (I assume) can conjure up immeasurably powerful allies (like Mephistopheles himself) whenever they choose. Sembia is also hamstrung by the inability to commit everything to one war, lest the nation become vulnerable to hostile neighbours and internal threats. I think it's fair to say that the Shadovar have a decided advantage in terms of magic and magical gizmos unless Elminster and his meddling gang decide to jump into the fight against them.

Having said that, I think it's doubtful that the Shadovar could conquer all of Faerūn - indeed, that seems to have been their implicit objective all along yet it remains unaccomplished. Or more accurately, I think it's doubtful the Shadovar could accomplish this goal with a direct military approach: they can afford to wait generations, and they prefer methods which inexorably weaken their enemies to the point of being unable to fight before they attack.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Mar 2012 16:31:56
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2012 :  00:17:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

they can afford to wait generations, and they prefer methods which inexorably weaken their enemies to the point of being unable to fight before they attack.


They surely can. And because Telamont is largely influenced by Princes Dethud and Melegaunt's approach to attain world domination, he has always preferred subtle manipulation to brute force, and only resorts to the latter when no other better options are available.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6166 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2012 :  03:59:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not a lot has really been said about the Shadovar as a nation. They aren't all shades, they aren't all evil, and not very many can hope to be as powerful (or ruthless) as Telamont and his Princes Shade. They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril. Controlling Sembia might have been a necessary step in securing an ally with population, resources, and information Shade needed while vulnerable and alone.

Although it does seem like Shade placed some priority on establishing stable access to the Sea of Fallen Stars. This could easily be a step towards more expansive invasion. It could have been necessitated by the location of sunken Sakkors. It might have been a religious imperative issued by Shar. It might even be little more than a genuine attempt to simply give Shade access to the goods and tradeways of the sea. All we really know is that taking Sembia was just the opening move in a game the Shadovar intend to play for a long time.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  01:45:53  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.


No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29796 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  05:17:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.


No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.



Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  05:25:49  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.


No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.



Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.


None at all. Because in the first place, to them, he is THE hero. He saved them countless times from near deaths, starting from the Fall of Netheril, to the ceaseless attacks of the Malaugrym and other malevolent creatures in the Plane of Shadow. Since then, they have always trusted in him, and treated his word as law.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  17:28:52  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

I made an emotional choice and picked the Hand of Mask. Could i conquer the world with them? , well probably not but it would certainly be a war to remember.



Very briefly, at least.


Well maybe. But then the Chosen of Mask arent really gone fight up head to head are they. No it would be a brutal campaign of guerrilla warfare with assassinations, ambushes and intrigues aplenty, just as the Lord of Shadows would wish it
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29796 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  18:44:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.


No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.



Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.


None at all. Because in the first place, to them, he is THE hero. He saved them countless times from near deaths, starting from the Fall of Netheril, to the ceaseless attacks of the Malaugrym and other malevolent creatures in the Plane of Shadow. Since then, they have always trusted in him, and treated his word as law.



And out of thousands of individuals, not one would break the law? Right.... When did they all start worshipping Torm?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  19:07:09  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I went with the War Priests of Garagos. Those guys would be fun (and they'd have a blast, methinks), even if they didn't win, for all the havoc and bloody slaughter they'd cause and probably enjoy doing.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
Go to Top of Page

Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  19:33:19  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.


No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.



Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.


None at all. Because in the first place, to them, he is THE hero. He saved them countless times from near deaths, starting from the Fall of Netheril, to the ceaseless attacks of the Malaugrym and other malevolent creatures in the Plane of Shadow. Since then, they have always trusted in him, and treated his word as law.



And out of thousands of individuals, not one would break the law? Right.... When did they all start worshipping Torm?



I do believe that the Shadovar empire is more Orwellian than not

So with the propaganda, an undying "God-king and his God-princes", most would not rebel now, would they? Especially since this specific individual helped them survive many a terrible fate. Besides slavery and dominion that is, but hey this is Faerun, people are used to slavery and dominion .

Cos if the citizens of Shadovar were going to overthrow a ruler who doesn't engage in random petty cruelties, like say the Red Wizards, then how come the Thayans didn't attempt to kick the RWoT.

The answer is quite simple, servile gratitude and an overwhelming disparity in power .
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6166 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  20:43:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In gaming terms, Telamont's stats certainly exceed those of anybody else in Shade (assuming you overlook the fact that one of his sons is now a demigod). He was inventing an entire school of magic in Netheril centuries before any of his sons were born.

Other Princes have demonstrated that they can operate mythallars without Telamont's assistance. Many of them actually exceed Telamont's abilities within their own focussed areas of specialization. It's unclear whether Telamont alone is responsible for planeshifting his entire enclave, but I suspect it could be done without him, and I doubt the power would ever be used again anyhow except in the most desperately catastrophic circumstances. In short, Telamont's survival and cooperation are no longer essentially linked to the survival and prosperity of Shade; he is not technically indispensible.

It's obvious that Telamont rules through fear more than through love, he is concerned enough about Rivalen's religious popularity to plot contingencies against a coup. In fact in the novels he is paranoid to the point of policing every action his Princes perform, they are under constant threat of surveillance, and they are all highly motivated to avoid displeasing him with anything less than maximum success. I suspect that Rivalen is sufficiently powerful to defy Telamont, yet he is actually shackled by loyalty and his faith that Telamont's agenda serves Shar ... but this might change at any moment, and Rivalen is definitely capable of patricide. It's possible that the other Princes could topple Telamont and his regime if they collectively conspired to do so - really the biggest thing keeping them in check is their mutually competitive uncertainty about trust and loyalty among themselves, a factor which Telamont continually manipulates to his advantage. The situation is so Machiavellian that nobody dares to pick the assassin's dagger from Telamont's outstretched hand, for fear that it's poisoned or their erstwhile-allies will attack while their gaze is momentarily diverted.

Shade has thousands of citizens. It's realistically impossible for thousands of people to unanimously support anything, let alone support a leader who rules through force and fear, especially when such a leader falters for even a single moment. I would actually be quite surprised if there haven't defectors, traitors, and spies working against the Shadovar's manifest destiny. This can only get worse over time as individual Shadovar gradually form more bonds with Sembians and other outsiders, Telamont would have to be increasingly careful about how much he can pull against such bonds unless he wants them to snap and recoil against Shade. Look to the most charismatically, popular and loved leaders in our past and present world, or to the most feared and unquestioned tyrants ... regardless of extremes, you'll always find the loyalty of the citizens remains divided.

In summary: Telamont's position as leader of an evil city is precarious and requires constant attention (even sacrifice) to maintain. It's not at all impossible for the Shadovar agenda to change over time.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Mar 2012 20:55:18
Go to Top of Page

Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  20:54:01  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ Ayrik
Nah Rivalen has come to terms with it, as in the last novel. He has been trying to reconcile his religious obligations with his secular ones for over a millenium. Shar showed him exactly how "empty" that was, emphasis mine. Telamont has been planning for Rivalen for a millenium anyways, he knew that Rivalen murdered Alashar. So now that is a confrontation just waiting to happen (and the one relevant threat to his rule, seeing how the other princes of Shade are also divided along religious lines and besides Brennus are ignorant of Rivalen's matricide).

As for the ordinary citizens, sure they are divided, but they are also used to being ruled by near omnipotent arcanists who bend reality to their whim. They have seen what the arcanists can do, and most would run rather than revolt.

Please try not to use real world analogues, cos if that was the case Thay, Zhentarim and most of drow society would be unsustainable. These are societies ruled through fear and power, power which is not reliant on popularity or force of personality. Aka the most charismatic, brilliant general would be nothing, or at least nothing significant, without his soldiers. A lvl 40 mage can snuff out hundreds of lives with a gesture, word and a thought. The citizens of Shadovar will obey, for the same reasons the citizens of Thay will obey. Or the citizens of any magocracy in Faerun at that. (Please don't bring up the Arcane brotherhood of Luskan, they are small beans compared to any proper magocracy in Faerun)


Edited by - Aes Tryl on 26 Mar 2012 20:55:33
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6166 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  20:57:46  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually very deliberately avoided any real world analogies, since that invariably devolves towards an expression Godwin's Law. To which analogies do you refer?

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  21:01:40  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Ayrik
"Look to the most charismatically, popular and loved leaders in our past and present world, or to the most feared and unquestioned tyrants ... regardless of extremes, you'll always find the loyalty of the citizens remains divided."

This specifically. And no I would not have invoked Godwin's Law, because Szass Tam and Telamont Tanthul and their cadres can do far far more realms-shattering things =P.

The loyalty of citizens may be divided, but unlike in Real World Scenarios, unless you are someone of a certain calibre (highly unlikely given the opposition), it wouldn't matter. So whatever their private thoughts are regarding Telamont and the Princes of Shade (with the possible exception of Rivalen), they will march to the beat of his drums

Edited by - Aes Tryl on 26 Mar 2012 21:02:17
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6166 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  21:08:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's apparently miscommunication with what I wrote. Rather than argue pedantically I'll just concede the point, sure you can be right, my incredibly nonspecific, vague, ambiguous, generic example was inappropriate.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  21:15:44  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Ayrik

Sorry, I do get what you mean. And I will retract the real world analogy "statment". But comparing a mortal ruler whose rule is largely dependent upon charisma, force of will or a very large army to an archmage who can bend reality like we can bend a straw is highly incongruous. A large enough force of people can deprive a despot of his throne, but would they be willing to do so if the despot can literally fry hundreds and thousands of them without even having to risk his own neck (via spells of course) and is mostly invulnerable to almost all methods of hurting him?

As I said, the citizens of Shade may have their own private ideas, but if they value their skin, and I assume they do, they will march to the beat of Telamont's drums.
Go to Top of Page

Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  21:33:23  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me, I don't see Telamont as likely to fry the populace of Shade (currently).

Even if we allow that it's possible, it doesn't follow that it's probable.

The guy is a ruler. Who's he going to lord it over if all his subjects are dead?

He doesn't strike me as someone willing to slay the entire population of a city he's ruled for millenia just to make a point.

Maybe when he has several enclaves under his control and rules half of Faerūn. Just not now.

Anyway, just my two coppers. Interesting read so far.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
Go to Top of Page

Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  21:39:46  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Jeremy

Not saying that he would (He probably wouldn't, not his style imo). I am saying that he CAN. And boy do his populace know that. Especially if they are raised in the heritage of Netheril or if they, as the conquered, see the shocking power of the Shade Princes. And that kind of kills the desire for any sort of uprising by the common folk. Therefore the notion that they wouldn't obey or even consider being passive/aggressive or loyal opposition even is rather unlikely. Most who disagree will probably run away to other enclaves,cities,countries etc. with super-powerful folk who have goals more aligned with their own =P.

Of course the UNCOMMON folk might have a thing or two to say to Telamont. But that is in the realms of heroes and legends (several in this case), not nascent uprisings by the local populace.
Go to Top of Page

Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2012 :  22:20:56  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Aes.

I can see where you're coming from and I even agree to the extent that the populace has reason to fear Telamont on some level.

For me, before I go so far as to say the population will move in lock-step out of fear alone, I first need to know more about their history away from Faerūn on the plane of shadow.

This is where I have to admit I don't know much about the history of Shade.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
Go to Top of Page

Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe

181 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2012 :  02:24:48  Show Profile  Visit Aes Tryl's Homepage Send Aes Tryl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Jeremy

It's somewhere between fear and servile worship, or a combination of both. Go read up on the history of Shade, how they had to fight the Malaugrym and the depredations of the Plane of Shadow itself, and also the fall of Netheril, with the Shade enclave the only one to come out almost completely intact. Also read the lost empires of faerun and some other sources (a bit fuzzy atm, away from books) to get a feel of how cruel and amoral these arcanists could be and also how they held the entirety of the Netherese empire in their grip through sheer magical prowess. Even if you were to discount their sojourn on the plane of Shadows, you must/should (up to you) realise that Netherese citizens are conditioned to obey their master's whims and fancies.

And you can substitute whatever I said about the Shades with any evil-aligned magocracy and it would work. The only one powerful enough to even compete with the Shadovar are the Red Wizards (pre-civil war) imho. That's the problem with magocracies, their rulers live forever and the power they possess never wanes, not even in "old age" (if it applies), it'd take an unmigitated disaster like Karsus' folly or the spellplague to change this and any society that dependant on magic would probably suffer greatly anyways (without external help that is). In fact, the spellplague is highly likely to have further enhanced the reputation of the Shade Princes and Shar among the populace of Shade, as they have now dodged the bullet twice under Telamont.

P.S You will note in the Thayan civil war, there was no "nascent uprising", it was a fight between the most powerful mage vs the rest of his peers (barring a couple of defections back and forth. It was a fight between epic mages, and the local populace had no real role in it, besides helplessly and grudgingly providing fodder and support (often under threat and coercion).

Also go read up on the history of the Shade Enclave, it would give you a better view on why they might even look upon Telamont as a benevolent ruler looking to re-establish the fortunes of Netheril rather than an out-and-out despot.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  07:24:40  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

I do believe that the Shadovar empire is more Orwellian than not

So with the propaganda, an undying "God-king and his God-princes", most would not rebel now, would they? Especially since this specific individual helped them survive many a terrible fate. Besides slavery and dominion that is, but hey this is Faerun, people are used to slavery and dominion .

Cos if the citizens of Shadovar were going to overthrow a ruler who doesn't engage in random petty cruelties, like say the Red Wizards, then how come the Thayans didn't attempt to kick the RWoT.

The answer is quite simple, servile gratitude and an overwhelming disparity in power .


Good point.

If they think of overthrowing Telamont, who do they want to replace him? Rivalen? Ha! A pretty sight, that. And Brennus would most likely throw a city-wide party, with erinyes as pole dancers.

quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

Nah Rivalen has come to terms with it, as in the last novel. He has been trying to reconcile his religious obligations with his secular ones for over a millenium. Shar showed him exactly how "empty" that was, emphasis mine. Telamont has been planning for Rivalen for a millenium anyways, he knew that Rivalen murdered Alashar...


Telamont is anything but stupid. Why would he allow his son absorb incredible amount of power and become a demigod/exarch if he had not, beforehand, prepared for it? So to one day relinquish his throne to Rivalen? Quite unlikely.

quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

As for the ordinary citizens, sure they are divided, but they are also used to being ruled by near omnipotent arcanists who bend reality to their whim. They have seen what the arcanists can do, and most would run rather than revolt.


In the case of the denizens of Thultantar, it's both fear and loyalty that keep them reined. Fear for the wrath of an archwizard who can snuff out their lives with a mere flick of a finger, and loyalty (and awe) to the same archwizard who had won them battles and saved their lives countless times, then and now.

quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl

It's somewhere between fear and servile worship, or a combination of both. Go read up on the history of Shade, how they had to fight the Malaugrym and the depredations of the Plane of Shadow itself, and also the fall of Netheril, with the Shade enclave the only one to come out almost completely intact. Also read the lost empires of faerun and some other sources (a bit fuzzy atm, away from books) to get a feel of how cruel and amoral these arcanists could be and also how they held the entirety of the Netherese empire in their grip through sheer magical prowess. Even if you were to discount their sojourn on the plane of Shadows, you must/should (up to you) realise that Netherese citizens are conditioned to obey their master's whims and fancies.

And you can substitute whatever I said about the Shades with any evil-aligned magocracy and it would work. The only one powerful enough to even compete with the Shadovar are the Red Wizards (pre-civil war) imho. That's the problem with magocracies, their rulers live forever and the power they possess never wanes, not even in "old age" (if it applies), it'd take an unmigitated disaster like Karsus' folly or the spellplague to change this and any society that dependant on magic would probably suffer greatly anyways (without external help that is). In fact, the spellplague is highly likely to have further enhanced the reputation of the Shade Princes and Shar among the populace of Shade, as they have now dodged the bullet twice under Telamont.

P.S You will note in the Thayan civil war, there was no "nascent uprising", it was a fight between the most powerful mage vs the rest of his peers (barring a couple of defections back and forth. It was a fight between epic mages, and the local populace had no real role in it, besides helplessly and grudgingly providing fodder and support (often under threat and coercion).

Also go read up on the history of the Shade Enclave, it would give you a better view on why they might even look upon Telamont as a benevolent ruler looking to re-establish the fortunes of Netheril rather than an out-and-out despot.



Excellent point.

Besides, I haven't read anything about Telamont that could have made the populace dislike him utterly. He's not some evil overlord who relishes raping and murdering his subjects indiscriminately. He was once capable of real love. (For his late wife.) Somehow, he might have some semblance of care for his people.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2012 :  20:29:08  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
5,000 mind-flayers.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1204 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2012 :  20:47:57  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An army of Cloned Tarassques? I mean, if I want to win, and that's all that matters.... :D
But personality wise, I picked Cormyr. I might have to rethink that, but it suited my chaotic mood at the current moment.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2012 :  21:09:18  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

There's a wizard who as able to control a Tarassque. If one mage could do it, others might be able to do so as well.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000