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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 21:08:44
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| There's apparently miscommunication with what I wrote. Rather than argue pedantically I'll just concede the point, sure you can be right, my incredibly nonspecific, vague, ambiguous, generic example was inappropriate. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 21:15:44
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@Ayrik
Sorry, I do get what you mean. And I will retract the real world analogy "statment". But comparing a mortal ruler whose rule is largely dependent upon charisma, force of will or a very large army to an archmage who can bend reality like we can bend a straw is highly incongruous. A large enough force of people can deprive a despot of his throne, but would they be willing to do so if the despot can literally fry hundreds and thousands of them without even having to risk his own neck (via spells of course) and is mostly invulnerable to almost all methods of hurting him?
As I said, the citizens of Shade may have their own private ideas, but if they value their skin, and I assume they do, they will march to the beat of Telamont's drums. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 21:33:23
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For me, I don't see Telamont as likely to fry the populace of Shade (currently).
Even if we allow that it's possible, it doesn't follow that it's probable.
The guy is a ruler. Who's he going to lord it over if all his subjects are dead?
He doesn't strike me as someone willing to slay the entire population of a city he's ruled for millenia just to make a point.
Maybe when he has several enclaves under his control and rules half of Faerūn. Just not now.
Anyway, just my two coppers. Interesting read so far. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 21:39:46
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@Jeremy
Not saying that he would (He probably wouldn't, not his style imo). I am saying that he CAN. And boy do his populace know that. Especially if they are raised in the heritage of Netheril or if they, as the conquered, see the shocking power of the Shade Princes. And that kind of kills the desire for any sort of uprising by the common folk. Therefore the notion that they wouldn't obey or even consider being passive/aggressive or loyal opposition even is rather unlikely. Most who disagree will probably run away to other enclaves,cities,countries etc. with super-powerful folk who have goals more aligned with their own =P.
Of course the UNCOMMON folk might have a thing or two to say to Telamont. But that is in the realms of heroes and legends (several in this case), not nascent uprisings by the local populace. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 22:20:56
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, Aes.
I can see where you're coming from and I even agree to the extent that the populace has reason to fear Telamont on some level.
For me, before I go so far as to say the population will move in lock-step out of fear alone, I first need to know more about their history away from Faerūn on the plane of shadow.
This is where I have to admit I don't know much about the history of Shade. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2012 : 02:24:48
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@Jeremy
It's somewhere between fear and servile worship, or a combination of both. Go read up on the history of Shade, how they had to fight the Malaugrym and the depredations of the Plane of Shadow itself, and also the fall of Netheril, with the Shade enclave the only one to come out almost completely intact. Also read the lost empires of faerun and some other sources (a bit fuzzy atm, away from books) to get a feel of how cruel and amoral these arcanists could be and also how they held the entirety of the Netherese empire in their grip through sheer magical prowess. Even if you were to discount their sojourn on the plane of Shadows, you must/should (up to you) realise that Netherese citizens are conditioned to obey their master's whims and fancies.
And you can substitute whatever I said about the Shades with any evil-aligned magocracy and it would work. The only one powerful enough to even compete with the Shadovar are the Red Wizards (pre-civil war) imho. That's the problem with magocracies, their rulers live forever and the power they possess never wanes, not even in "old age" (if it applies), it'd take an unmigitated disaster like Karsus' folly or the spellplague to change this and any society that dependant on magic would probably suffer greatly anyways (without external help that is). In fact, the spellplague is highly likely to have further enhanced the reputation of the Shade Princes and Shar among the populace of Shade, as they have now dodged the bullet twice under Telamont.
P.S You will note in the Thayan civil war, there was no "nascent uprising", it was a fight between the most powerful mage vs the rest of his peers (barring a couple of defections back and forth. It was a fight between epic mages, and the local populace had no real role in it, besides helplessly and grudgingly providing fodder and support (often under threat and coercion).
Also go read up on the history of the Shade Enclave, it would give you a better view on why they might even look upon Telamont as a benevolent ruler looking to re-establish the fortunes of Netheril rather than an out-and-out despot. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 07:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
I do believe that the Shadovar empire is more Orwellian than not 
So with the propaganda, an undying "God-king and his God-princes", most would not rebel now, would they? Especially since this specific individual helped them survive many a terrible fate. Besides slavery and dominion that is, but hey this is Faerun, people are used to slavery and dominion .
Cos if the citizens of Shadovar were going to overthrow a ruler who doesn't engage in random petty cruelties, like say the Red Wizards, then how come the Thayans didn't attempt to kick the RWoT.
The answer is quite simple, servile gratitude and an overwhelming disparity in power  .
Good point.
If they think of overthrowing Telamont, who do they want to replace him? Rivalen? Ha! A pretty sight, that. And Brennus would most likely throw a city-wide party, with erinyes as pole dancers.
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Nah Rivalen has come to terms with it, as in the last novel. He has been trying to reconcile his religious obligations with his secular ones for over a millenium. Shar showed him exactly how "empty" that was, emphasis mine. Telamont has been planning for Rivalen for a millenium anyways, he knew that Rivalen murdered Alashar...
Telamont is anything but stupid. Why would he allow his son absorb incredible amount of power and become a demigod/exarch if he had not, beforehand, prepared for it? So to one day relinquish his throne to Rivalen? Quite unlikely.
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
As for the ordinary citizens, sure they are divided, but they are also used to being ruled by near omnipotent arcanists who bend reality to their whim. They have seen what the arcanists can do, and most would run rather than revolt.
In the case of the denizens of Thultantar, it's both fear and loyalty that keep them reined. Fear for the wrath of an archwizard who can snuff out their lives with a mere flick of a finger, and loyalty (and awe) to the same archwizard who had won them battles and saved their lives countless times, then and now.
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
It's somewhere between fear and servile worship, or a combination of both. Go read up on the history of Shade, how they had to fight the Malaugrym and the depredations of the Plane of Shadow itself, and also the fall of Netheril, with the Shade enclave the only one to come out almost completely intact. Also read the lost empires of faerun and some other sources (a bit fuzzy atm, away from books) to get a feel of how cruel and amoral these arcanists could be and also how they held the entirety of the Netherese empire in their grip through sheer magical prowess. Even if you were to discount their sojourn on the plane of Shadows, you must/should (up to you) realise that Netherese citizens are conditioned to obey their master's whims and fancies.
And you can substitute whatever I said about the Shades with any evil-aligned magocracy and it would work. The only one powerful enough to even compete with the Shadovar are the Red Wizards (pre-civil war) imho. That's the problem with magocracies, their rulers live forever and the power they possess never wanes, not even in "old age" (if it applies), it'd take an unmigitated disaster like Karsus' folly or the spellplague to change this and any society that dependant on magic would probably suffer greatly anyways (without external help that is). In fact, the spellplague is highly likely to have further enhanced the reputation of the Shade Princes and Shar among the populace of Shade, as they have now dodged the bullet twice under Telamont.
P.S You will note in the Thayan civil war, there was no "nascent uprising", it was a fight between the most powerful mage vs the rest of his peers (barring a couple of defections back and forth. It was a fight between epic mages, and the local populace had no real role in it, besides helplessly and grudgingly providing fodder and support (often under threat and coercion).
Also go read up on the history of the Shade Enclave, it would give you a better view on why they might even look upon Telamont as a benevolent ruler looking to re-establish the fortunes of Netheril rather than an out-and-out despot.
Excellent point.
Besides, I haven't read anything about Telamont that could have made the populace dislike him utterly. He's not some evil overlord who relishes raping and murdering his subjects indiscriminately. He was once capable of real love. (For his late wife.) Somehow, he might have some semblance of care for his people. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 20:29:08
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| 5,000 mind-flayers. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 20:47:57
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An army of Cloned Tarassques? I mean, if I want to win, and that's all that matters.... :D
But personality wise, I picked Cormyr. I might have to rethink that, but it suited my chaotic mood at the current moment. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:09:18
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There's a wizard who as able to control a Tarassque. If one mage could do it, others might be able to do so as well. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2012 : 21:10:31
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You guys are still debating this?
I'm still for Shou Lung...put me in charge and I'm ruler of the world.
It is my "other" choice and I'm sticking to it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2012 : 19:37:30
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This is one of those 'versus' arguments.
Theres a good reason why those are banned on this site.
For instance, I'll throw this out there: Pun Pun
There, I win... now close this thread.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 07:13:03
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| Hmm the Empire of Netheril at its peak!( Not the Shadovar, the real Empire of Magic please!) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 05:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
You guys are still debating this?
Some of us only visit every six months or so, and cherry pick - either the most interesting scrolls or the easiest to add a comment too. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 06:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
You guys are still debating this?
Some of us only visit every six months or so, and cherry pick - either the most interesting scrolls or the easiest to add a comment too.
I can understand that...my comment was more tongue in cheek trending toward "My answer is the best answer and you should all just shut up and admit that the Shou Empire would win it all!" sort of thing. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 06:26:18
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What would have happened if the Empire of Imaskar and the Empire of Netheril existed in the same era? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 06:30:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What would have happened if the Empire of Imaskar and the Empire of Netheril existed in the same era?
Didn't they?
EDIT:
Checked some dates. Imaskari Empire didn't fall until -2488 DR.
"High Netheril" was founded in -2954 DR with the first Enclave.
The Imaskari and Netherese had hundreds of years at their peak of power to deal with each other. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 09 Jun 2012 06:42:05 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 06:45:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What would have happened if the Empire of Imaskar and the Empire of Netheril existed in the same era?
Didn't they?
No, they didn't. I was referring to the old empires, not Shade and High and Deep Imaskar.
The old Imaskar was founded around -8000s DR, and was turned to ashes around -2000s DR, while Netheril was founded around -2500s. At some point they 'met', but definitely not during the height of their power, which in Netheril's case, was around -2200s DR, the Golden Age. In short, Imaskar was already falling apart by the time Netheril was just starting to become an empire. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Jun 2012 06:52:08 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 06:52:43
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I'll have to disagree.
The Netherese had the the Nether Scrolls by -3533 DR.
While they may not have started chopping up mountains until -2954 DR, that is still hundreds of years of access to Sarukh magic...and well over a thousand years before Imaskar fell. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 22:49:52
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| Went with 5k seldarine knights just because I think they outclass the purple dragons and red wizards would leave once heavy resistance was met. However, in the Seven Sisters accessory it was stated that the Simbul...ALONE...once destroyed an army of thousands. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2014 : 23:10:57
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| The Simbul was a powerhouse. In one of Ed's Sage of Shadowdale novels she mentions she doesn't have much useful magic available, unless they actually wanted the entire Hullack Forest blasted apart. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 18 Dec 2014 23:11:24 |
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Omenborn
Acolyte
Germany
16 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2014 : 06:11:12
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| I think the Purple Dragons mixed in with a Spellfire User or two to counter enemy Magic would be a good team |
Some Adventure for Gold,
others for Fame,
ME i just like to KILL THING |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2014 : 18:08:45
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5000 priestesses of Sharess, including a mix of Celebrants of Sharess, Dancers of Sharess, 5e Sharessin Paladins of Sharess, Spelldancers of Sharess, and Mystic Wanders of Sharess and Glorious Servitors of Bast.
People would be happy to be conquoered. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2014 : 19:50:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
5000 priestesses of Sharess, including a mix of Celebrants of Sharess, Dancers of Sharess, 5e Sharessin Paladins of Sharess, Spelldancers of Sharess, and Mystic Wanders of Sharess and Glorious Servitors of Bast.
People would be happy to be conquoered.
With that particular mix, though, I don't think your army would even make it out of the camp. |
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War !
