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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 15:19:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
One of those two must be an Illithid, controlling the mind of the other and who knows how many other Scribes here at the 'Keep. I think it safer to burn them both.
I concur. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 18:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Elfinblade
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
One of those two must be an Illithid, controlling the mind of the other and who knows how many other Scribes here at the 'Keep. I think it safer to burn them both.
I concur.
Heh, it seems a spammer got thru, and was for some reason using a machine translation. I wondered at the odd wording of his post, but I didn't realize initially that he was simply quoting previous posts in the same thread. Interesting methodology, but he/she/it oddly only posted three times.
Those posts are now gone. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2011 18:27:04 |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 18:55:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Those posts are now gone.
Huzzah! The revenge of the space hamster can be dire indeed. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 08:27:07
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| I actually hate big fights. The world conquering could be really cool if it is acted by small group with guerila tactics. Sorry for not sounding realistic in fantasy campaign. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 20:10:09
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| a global forgotten realms war would be epic and the reverberations from it would be long lasting and facsinating. it would either unify the planet or destroy it. |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 20:44:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Synthalus
a global forgotten realms war would be epic and the reverberations from it would be long lasting and facsinating. it would either unify the planet or destroy it.
I can't agree... I don't see why or how there could be a global war, particularly with issues of logistics. And I'm even more skeptical about it unifying the planet. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 07:18:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can't agree... I don't see why or how there could be a global war, particularly with issues of logistics. And I'm even more skeptical about it unifying the planet.
-The closest there was in regards to a global war was probably the Tuigan horde, and that was mostly confined to Central/Eastern Faerūn and Eastern/Central Kara-Tur. And, as evidenced in Crusade, look how hard it was for King Azoun IV to put together an army representing Cormyr, the Dales, and the Zhents. Add more players to the mix, with all of their own specific political agendas, and it gets even more complex and unwieldy. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 16:49:23
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| I made an emotional choice and picked the Hand of Mask. Could i conquer the world with them? , well probably not but it would certainly be a war to remember. |
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 17:28:13
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If looking at this query from a D&D rules perspective (let's chose 3.5/Pathfinder rules, for example), you would want as many primary, Tier-1 spellcasters in your ranks as possible. Meaning - wizards, clerics, etc. Since every one of the listed armies has higher-level officers and specialists, your higher-level primary spellcasters will now have significant force-multiplier capabilities via Planar Binding-style conjuration/calling spells. Those calling spells can be customized or tailored to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses when fighting a specific enemy.
So the answer here looks to be like the Red Wizards. Especially when you take into consideration the optimization aspects of Circle Magic .... and .... their unusually superior organizational discipline when compared to other aggregate gatherings of spellcasters. |
Edited by - Snow on 23 Mar 2012 17:29:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 17:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I made an emotional choice and picked the Hand of Mask. Could i conquer the world with them? , well probably not but it would certainly be a war to remember.
Very briefly, at least. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 23:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was going to wage war across Faerūn, I'd want more than 5000 troops.
If we go by 'brute force' alone, yes. But, 'wars' are not just hurling spells at each other, or swinging swords. Manipulation is also considered a subtle form of war, for like war in its bloody form, goal of manipulation is the same: to throw a realm off balance and eventually conquer it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 04:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was going to wage war across Faerūn, I'd want more than 5000 troops.
If we go by 'brute force' alone, yes. But, 'wars' are not just hurling spells at each other, or swinging swords. Manipulation is also considered a subtle form of war, for like war in its bloody form, goal of manipulation is the same: to throw a realm off balance and eventually conquer it.
Irrelevant. You'd still need more than 5000 people to sway every single government on the planet, and to maintain that influence.
Besides, at some point, you'll need force -- either to directly use it or to threaten to. And again, for that, you need more than 5000 troops. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 06:52:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was going to wage war across Faerūn, I'd want more than 5000 troops.
If we go by 'brute force' alone, yes. But, 'wars' are not just hurling spells at each other, or swinging swords. Manipulation is also considered a subtle form of war, for like war in its bloody form, goal of manipulation is the same: to throw a realm off balance and eventually conquer it.
Irrelevant. You'd still need more than 5000 people to sway every single government on the planet, and to maintain that influence.
Besides, at some point, you'll need force -- either to directly use it or to threaten to. And again, for that, you need more than 5000 troops.
The Shadovar took Sembia with less than 5000 troops. Granted it's not the entire world, but one realm at a time is way better than trying to conquer them all at once; and for that, 500o troops may be sufficient, depending on how well you use them. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe
Canada
137 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 11:00:23
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5000 Priests of Garagos.
Garagos is the deity of War, Skill-at-arms, Destruction, & Plunder. If you were fighting a war just to win, not caring about the slaughter of those considered innocents/non-combatants and the cost of the war on economies & infastructure, then the priests of Garagos would be the force that you wanted. You may go down in history as one of the most bloodthirsty warlords to ever step onto a battlefield, but if it wins the war for you..... |
Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P24 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D) |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 11:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Nilus Reynard
5000 Priests of Garagos.
Garagos is the deity of War, Skill-at-arms, Destruction, & Plunder. If you were fighting a war just to win, not caring about the slaughter of those considered innocents/non-combatants and the cost of the war on economies & infastructure, then the priests of Garagos would be the force that you wanted. You may go down in history as one of the most bloodthirsty warlords to ever step onto a battlefield, but if it wins the war for you.....
Meh.
When your soldiers are more concerned with individual glory, plunder and destruction than doing their jobs, you aren't going to win.
What wins wars are the boring things, the staff officers who arrange your logistics chain so that your front-line troops have food and water, the troops who dig latrines so that half your men aren't down with dysentery and typhoid fever, the officers who remember that ten disciplined soldiers who stand their ground will win over ten blood-crazed maniacs who charge them one at a time, etc.
Individual skill at arms and courage is no match for a professional military. Witness Caesar vs. Vercingetorix. The Gauls were warriors, they had passion, numbers, individual skill and a lot of courage. The Romans had engineers, clerks and soldiers. One-on-one, warriors might beat soldiers. But on the macroscale, soldiers beat warriors hands down. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 24 Mar 2012 11:12:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 15:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was going to wage war across Faerūn, I'd want more than 5000 troops.
If we go by 'brute force' alone, yes. But, 'wars' are not just hurling spells at each other, or swinging swords. Manipulation is also considered a subtle form of war, for like war in its bloody form, goal of manipulation is the same: to throw a realm off balance and eventually conquer it.
Irrelevant. You'd still need more than 5000 people to sway every single government on the planet, and to maintain that influence.
Besides, at some point, you'll need force -- either to directly use it or to threaten to. And again, for that, you need more than 5000 troops.
The Shadovar took Sembia with less than 5000 troops. Granted it's not the entire world, but one realm at a time is way better than trying to conquer them all at once; and for that, 500o troops may be sufficient, depending on how well you use them.
Nope. Even going one at a time, you're still going to need a lot of people to maintain your rule -- even if it's just viziers and functionaries who ensure your interests are maintained. And at some point, you'll need men-at-arms -- and most likely, you'll need them more than once. And if you need them in Khazari, that 5000 troops stationed in Westgate is pretty useless.
So we remain with a need for more than 5000 troops, to conquer the world -- or even just the continent. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2012 : 16:25:20
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My understanding is that the Shadovar took Sembia through largely non-military means. Shadowy diplomacy, manipulation, negotiation, natural and supernatural disasters, shadowcloak & dagger sort of stuff, propaganda campaigns, an opportunistic religious war, a war of economic attrition.
But even if one were to just evaluate these nations in military terms ... Shadovar troops are incredibly mobile and require no logistical support, they have two flying fortresses, mobile units like the Kraken, and (I assume) can conjure up immeasurably powerful allies (like Mephistopheles himself) whenever they choose. Sembia is also hamstrung by the inability to commit everything to one war, lest the nation become vulnerable to hostile neighbours and internal threats. I think it's fair to say that the Shadovar have a decided advantage in terms of magic and magical gizmos unless Elminster and his meddling gang decide to jump into the fight against them.
Having said that, I think it's doubtful that the Shadovar could conquer all of Faerūn - indeed, that seems to have been their implicit objective all along yet it remains unaccomplished. Or more accurately, I think it's doubtful the Shadovar could accomplish this goal with a direct military approach: they can afford to wait generations, and they prefer methods which inexorably weaken their enemies to the point of being unable to fight before they attack. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Mar 2012 16:31:56 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 00:17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
they can afford to wait generations, and they prefer methods which inexorably weaken their enemies to the point of being unable to fight before they attack.
They surely can. And because Telamont is largely influenced by Princes Dethud and Melegaunt's approach to attain world domination, he has always preferred subtle manipulation to brute force, and only resorts to the latter when no other better options are available. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 03:59:20
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Not a lot has really been said about the Shadovar as a nation. They aren't all shades, they aren't all evil, and not very many can hope to be as powerful (or ruthless) as Telamont and his Princes Shade. They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril. Controlling Sembia might have been a necessary step in securing an ally with population, resources, and information Shade needed while vulnerable and alone.
Although it does seem like Shade placed some priority on establishing stable access to the Sea of Fallen Stars. This could easily be a step towards more expansive invasion. It could have been necessitated by the location of sunken Sakkors. It might have been a religious imperative issued by Shar. It might even be little more than a genuine attempt to simply give Shade access to the goods and tradeways of the sea. All we really know is that taking Sembia was just the opening move in a game the Shadovar intend to play for a long time. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 01:45:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.
No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.
No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.
Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 05:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.
No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.
Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.
None at all. Because in the first place, to them, he is THE hero. He saved them countless times from near deaths, starting from the Fall of Netheril, to the ceaseless attacks of the Malaugrym and other malevolent creatures in the Plane of Shadow. Since then, they have always trusted in him, and treated his word as law. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 17:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I made an emotional choice and picked the Hand of Mask. Could i conquer the world with them? , well probably not but it would certainly be a war to remember.
Very briefly, at least.
 Well maybe. But then the Chosen of Mask arent really gone fight up head to head are they. No it would be a brutal campaign of guerrilla warfare with assassinations, ambushes and intrigues aplenty, just as the Lord of Shadows would wish it |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 18:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.
No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.
Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.
None at all. Because in the first place, to them, he is THE hero. He saved them countless times from near deaths, starting from the Fall of Netheril, to the ceaseless attacks of the Malaugrym and other malevolent creatures in the Plane of Shadow. Since then, they have always trusted in him, and treated his word as law.
And out of thousands of individuals, not one would break the law? Right.... When did they all start worshipping Torm? |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 19:07:09
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| I went with the War Priests of Garagos. Those guys would be fun (and they'd have a blast, methinks), even if they didn't win, for all the havoc and bloody slaughter they'd cause and probably enjoy doing. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 19:33:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They might, as a people, be content with the firm foothold they've already secured in the Realms, it might be sufficient to restore lost Netheril.
No. Telamont explicitly stated he meant to conquer the world, a Netherese dream that should have been fulfilled a long time ago. His word is law, so the populace really have no choice on the mattter. Unless they want to die an instant death, of course.
Of course. They can't leave, or work against him in a passive-agressive way, or actively oppose him, or anything like that. No options at all.
None at all. Because in the first place, to them, he is THE hero. He saved them countless times from near deaths, starting from the Fall of Netheril, to the ceaseless attacks of the Malaugrym and other malevolent creatures in the Plane of Shadow. Since then, they have always trusted in him, and treated his word as law.
And out of thousands of individuals, not one would break the law? Right.... When did they all start worshipping Torm?
I do believe that the Shadovar empire is more Orwellian than not
So with the propaganda, an undying "God-king and his God-princes", most would not rebel now, would they? Especially since this specific individual helped them survive many a terrible fate. Besides slavery and dominion that is, but hey this is Faerun, people are used to slavery and dominion .
Cos if the citizens of Shadovar were going to overthrow a ruler who doesn't engage in random petty cruelties, like say the Red Wizards, then how come the Thayans didn't attempt to kick the RWoT.
The answer is quite simple, servile gratitude and an overwhelming disparity in power  . |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 20:43:29
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In gaming terms, Telamont's stats certainly exceed those of anybody else in Shade (assuming you overlook the fact that one of his sons is now a demigod). He was inventing an entire school of magic in Netheril centuries before any of his sons were born.
Other Princes have demonstrated that they can operate mythallars without Telamont's assistance. Many of them actually exceed Telamont's abilities within their own focussed areas of specialization. It's unclear whether Telamont alone is responsible for planeshifting his entire enclave, but I suspect it could be done without him, and I doubt the power would ever be used again anyhow except in the most desperately catastrophic circumstances. In short, Telamont's survival and cooperation are no longer essentially linked to the survival and prosperity of Shade; he is not technically indispensible.
It's obvious that Telamont rules through fear more than through love, he is concerned enough about Rivalen's religious popularity to plot contingencies against a coup. In fact in the novels he is paranoid to the point of policing every action his Princes perform, they are under constant threat of surveillance, and they are all highly motivated to avoid displeasing him with anything less than maximum success. I suspect that Rivalen is sufficiently powerful to defy Telamont, yet he is actually shackled by loyalty and his faith that Telamont's agenda serves Shar ... but this might change at any moment, and Rivalen is definitely capable of patricide. It's possible that the other Princes could topple Telamont and his regime if they collectively conspired to do so - really the biggest thing keeping them in check is their mutually competitive uncertainty about trust and loyalty among themselves, a factor which Telamont continually manipulates to his advantage. The situation is so Machiavellian that nobody dares to pick the assassin's dagger from Telamont's outstretched hand, for fear that it's poisoned or their erstwhile-allies will attack while their gaze is momentarily diverted.
Shade has thousands of citizens. It's realistically impossible for thousands of people to unanimously support anything, let alone support a leader who rules through force and fear, especially when such a leader falters for even a single moment. I would actually be quite surprised if there haven't defectors, traitors, and spies working against the Shadovar's manifest destiny. This can only get worse over time as individual Shadovar gradually form more bonds with Sembians and other outsiders, Telamont would have to be increasingly careful about how much he can pull against such bonds unless he wants them to snap and recoil against Shade. Look to the most charismatically, popular and loved leaders in our past and present world, or to the most feared and unquestioned tyrants ... regardless of extremes, you'll always find the loyalty of the citizens remains divided.
In summary: Telamont's position as leader of an evil city is precarious and requires constant attention (even sacrifice) to maintain. It's not at all impossible for the Shadovar agenda to change over time. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Mar 2012 20:55:18 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 20:54:01
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@ Ayrik
Nah Rivalen has come to terms with it, as in the last novel. He has been trying to reconcile his religious obligations with his secular ones for over a millenium. Shar showed him exactly how "empty" that was, emphasis mine. Telamont has been planning for Rivalen for a millenium anyways, he knew that Rivalen murdered Alashar. So now that is a confrontation just waiting to happen (and the one relevant threat to his rule, seeing how the other princes of Shade are also divided along religious lines and besides Brennus are ignorant of Rivalen's matricide).
As for the ordinary citizens, sure they are divided, but they are also used to being ruled by near omnipotent arcanists who bend reality to their whim. They have seen what the arcanists can do, and most would run rather than revolt.
Please try not to use real world analogues, cos if that was the case Thay, Zhentarim and most of drow society would be unsustainable. These are societies ruled through fear and power, power which is not reliant on popularity or force of personality. Aka the most charismatic, brilliant general would be nothing, or at least nothing significant, without his soldiers. A lvl 40 mage can snuff out hundreds of lives with a gesture, word and a thought. The citizens of Shadovar will obey, for the same reasons the citizens of Thay will obey. Or the citizens of any magocracy in Faerun at that. (Please don't bring up the Arcane brotherhood of Luskan, they are small beans compared to any proper magocracy in Faerun)
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Edited by - Aes Tryl on 26 Mar 2012 20:55:33 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 20:57:46
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| I actually very deliberately avoided any real world analogies, since that invariably devolves towards an expression Godwin's Law. To which analogies do you refer? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2012 : 21:01:40
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@Ayrik
"Look to the most charismatically, popular and loved leaders in our past and present world, or to the most feared and unquestioned tyrants ... regardless of extremes, you'll always find the loyalty of the citizens remains divided."
This specifically. And no I would not have invoked Godwin's Law, because Szass Tam and Telamont Tanthul and their cadres can do far far more realms-shattering things =P.
The loyalty of citizens may be divided, but unlike in Real World Scenarios, unless you are someone of a certain calibre (highly unlikely given the opposition), it wouldn't matter. So whatever their private thoughts are regarding Telamont and the Princes of Shade (with the possible exception of Rivalen), they will march to the beat of his drums |
Edited by - Aes Tryl on 26 Mar 2012 21:02:17 |
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War !
