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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 26 Jan 2011 :  08:35:34  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
As I was enjoying a re-read of GHotR tonight, a question occurred to me: Where do the Harpers get funds for running operations, maintaining safehouses, paying informants, bribing officials, equipping agents, etc.? I'm certain that some large chunk of their resources is in the form of well-to-do members who are openhanded with their wealth, but do the Harpers engage in any sort of revenue-generation? I know that certain businesses are Harper fronts, and I would guess that those fronts are expected to turn a profit, which accounts for some income.

Apart from those two pretty obvious sources, does anyone have any info on where the organization's money comes from? I would not be shocked to find out that they own rental properties, or maybe even run a thieves' guild or two in cities which have a particularly uneven distribution of wealth.

(I'm guessing that some of this might be in the Harper splatbook, which I currently do not own.)

How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco

The Sage
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Posted - 26 Jan 2011 :  10:28:18  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going from memory here, but I recall Code of the Harpers stating that during the first century of the organisation's existence, they established themselves in wealthy trade alliances, which would provide a relatively ready source of financial support. Operations like caravan-running, merchant shipping, and so forth.

Churches too, I suppose, divert some of their funds to Harper-based operations they may sponsor -- Eldath, Mielikki, and Mystra, for example.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jan 2011 :  11:45:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They sell cookies every year, in the month of Alturiak. The Skinny Mints are particularly popular!

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Alisttair
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Posted - 26 Jan 2011 :  12:06:20  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That beggar on the street you see...he's collecting funds for the harpers...that's the real reason for the schism and the reduced numbers following the spellplague

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Therise
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Posted - 26 Jan 2011 :  13:55:45  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

They sell cookies every year, in the month of Alturiak. The Skinny Mints are particularly popular!


Skinny Mints are good, but I prefer the Shortbread Mystras (with the goddess image) and the Sharran Samoas (the hole in the center = loss).


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
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Quale
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Posted - 26 Jan 2011 :  14:09:06  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Harpers are the largest real estate owners in Waterdeep. Similar investments were done (by Khelben particularly) in other cities of the Sword Coast and caravan businesses (e.g. the Windriders coster). They also control Berdusk.
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Eldacar
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Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  14:04:50  Show Profile Send Eldacar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A Wizard Did It. (In 3.5, at least, there's the "Wall of Iron + Fabricate" trick or cornering the pole market - two ten foot poles sell for more than one ten foot ladder does... go figure.)

More seriously, trade alliances, possibly a bit of dungeon crawling by like-minded adventurers (although angry dragons might object!), selling services (crafting and selling magic items, which also incidentally furthers Mystra's dogma) and funneling money from various business interests (e.g. a Harper might run a well-off shop somewhere and could donate some of their profit to the organisation). The favour of the gods always helps too (donations from allied clergy are possible).

"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
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Ayrik
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Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  14:48:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, the Harper Illuminati.

The Harpers finance themselves through syndication of course. They've infiltrated positions of authority and have resources and revenue scattered throughout Waterdeep and the Lord's Alliance, the North, the Sword Coast, Cormyr, the Dales, the Moonsea, and beyond. Pretty much every church dedicated to Milil, Oghma, Denier, Silvanus, or *any* good-aligned goddess (most especially Selűne, Mielikki, Tymora, Larue, Lliira, Chauntea, Sune, even Mystra/Midnight) can function as a Harper stronghold and siphon funds into or through the Harper organization. They use secret gang symbols, signs, tattoos, and colours to mark their safehouses and turf and to identify members. And (judging from the novels) though the organization might contribute some lore and odd magical items toward important missions and quests, they aren't above the usual megacorporate practice of taking advantage of the naiveté and goodwill of their employees, ie: the burden of operational expenses (labour, travel costs, supplies, food and lodging, bribes) usually falls into the pockets of individual Harper agents who are typically given little more than token compensation in return.

The Harpers conveniently don't have any clearly defined membership, charter, mission statement, legal permits, headquarters or offices, structured chain of command and responsibility, accurate accounting ledgers, 1-800 hotlines, nor even a website. They are basically a good-aligned pyramid scheme — you buy into the scam with some vague notion of "fighting evil" then try to sell your friends (or anyone else you can recruit) into buying into the scam under you ... if you are particularly successful you become "qualified" to volunteer for more difficult and dangerous work and perhaps even earn the option of buying some sort of "special training" with absolutely no real-world application outside of the Harper franchise.

I personally suspect the Harpers are just a money-laundering front, an illegal import/export exchange, a spy network, a fencing and racketeering operation, a decentralized thieves' guild, a plausibly deniable elite black-ops corporate espionage corps, and what our society would call terrorists or guerillas.

Who's really in charge? It could be any of (or any combination of)
  • A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some Harper god.

  • A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some non-Harper god. Mask, Leira, or Waukeen, perhaps.

  • A corporation-minded dragon whose hoard is comprised of properties and investments across half of Faerűn.

  • A handful of powerful individuals (who may not even know each other) within the Harper ranks.

  • A byzantine opportunistic verbal bureaucracy with no proper leadership ranks whatsoever.

  • A secret cabal from the Gnomish Bankers Guild. Never trust a gnome, lol.


  • I wouldn't be surprised to learn of power-mad corruption and clandestine religious wars unwittingly carried out by Harper pawns, even against members within the "same" organization. I wouldn't be surprised if agents or sleepers from other organizations (like Zhents) have infiltrated Harper ranks. (Detect Evil only goes so far, y'know.) Remember that Harpers never really deal with the organization, only with individuals ... it's quite possible that nobody really has a clue what the "organization" is really up to because there's really no cohesion or communication. Your Harper missions most likely involve whatever your Harper boss whimsically decides you should do.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Feb 2011 16:04:39
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    Kajehase
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    Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  17:15:39  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Harper's Hall in Berdusk has a portal to the Elemental Plane of Earth that opens up just where someone dropped a brochure with the result of every horse race in the multiverse for the next 12'000 years (and some 3'000 years before then). Actually, it's more like a weapons-grade, leather-bound book than a brochure.

    There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  17:31:50  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    A weapons-grade leatherbound book? My PC wizards would love that idea.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
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    Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  18:00:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    What, pray tell, is weapons-grade leather? Is that something a priestess of Loviatar would wear?

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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  18:27:43  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    It's a milspec bookbinding. Complies with MIL-STD-190377623C2 which specifies certain leather wear and durability requirements, compliance with stress/puncture/tear testing, minimal resistance to water immersion, heat and flames, dragonbreath, etc etc. Part of the Rev-C2 errata includes a ECN specification that the Leather-57 isotope threshold must be below 110 clicky things per minute, and the (previously optional) fancy brass grommet must now be installed on every piece.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Kajehase
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    Posted - 02 Feb 2011 :  21:44:17  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    What, pray tell, is weapons-grade leather? Is that something a priestess of Loviatar would wear?



    Spot the comma Wooly. The comma is your friend.

    Think the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, but three times thicker.

    There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
    Terry Pratchett
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    Quale
    Master of Realmslore

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    Posted - 03 Feb 2011 :  15:48:56  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    Ah, the Harper Illuminati ... blah blah


    eh? no
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    Alystra Illianniis
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    Posted - 06 Feb 2011 :  20:46:59  Show Profile Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Weapons-grade leather? Sounds like a rogue's wet-dream..... I can see the Illuminati idea- it's Khelban, Elminster, Alustriel, Storm, and the Simbul.... (Marvel fans will get a laugh here...)

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    BlackAce
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    Posted - 09 Feb 2011 :  13:43:04  Show Profile Send BlackAce a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    It's a milspec bookbinding. Complies with MIL-STD-190377623C2 which specifies certain leather wear and durability requirements, compliance with stress/puncture/tear testing, minimal resistance to water immersion, heat and flames, dragonbreath, etc etc. Part of the Rev-C2 errata includes a ECN specification that the Leather-57 isotope threshold must be below 110 clicky things per minute, and the (previously optional) fancy brass grommet must now be installed on every piece.




    And when combined with the Tome of the Unicorn in a precise, shaped-charge detonation, it has the potential to collapse the entire multi-verse.

    I believe it's been ear-marked for the nest RSE....
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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 09 Feb 2011 :  13:55:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I knew I should've deleted that post.

    [/Ayrik]
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    cpthero2
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  02:09:26  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Great Reader Ayrik,

    Wow, fantastic post! I think the Harper's are generally speaking an incredibly corrupt, mafia like organization. Of course there are some good people in there, but generally not a "good" organization.

    Anyhow, I am here to clarify on some Leira material as I have her powerfully involved in my current and next campaign. Then, since I completely agree with you about the Harper's, I'll address your fantastic points! :)

    quote:
    A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some non-Harper god. Mask, Leira, or Waukeen, perhaps.


    I have had the same thoughts, but haven't been able to find anything that pointed to it specifically. Have you found anything by chance? I'd love to read up on it if you have. It is usually those magazine articles that this stuff is found in.

    Now on to the other stuff! :)

    quote:
    The Harpers finance themselves through syndication of course. They've infiltrated positions of authority and have resources and revenue scattered throughout Waterdeep and the Lord's Alliance, the North, the Sword Coast, Cormyr, the Dales, the Moonsea, and beyond. Pretty much every church dedicated to Milil, Oghma, Denier, Silvanus, or *any* good-aligned goddess (most especially Selűne, Mielikki, Tymora, Larue, Lliira, Chauntea, Sune, even Mystra/Midnight) can function as a Harper stronghold and siphon funds into or through the Harper organization. They use secret gang symbols, signs, tattoos, and colours to mark their safehouses and turf and to identify members. And (judging from the novels) though the organization might contribute some lore and odd magical items toward important missions and quests, they aren't above the usual megacorporate practice of taking advantage of the naiveté and goodwill of their employees, ie: the burden of operational expenses (labour, travel costs, supplies, food and lodging, bribes) usually falls into the pockets of individual Harper agents who are typically given little more than token compensation in return.


    My god, I'd think you were secretly recording my thoughts! Yes. Yes, indeed. The Harper's are just too involved in things. They have their grubby little hands in too much, and when "leadership" (whatever that means) gets called to the carpet, guess what happens: not a dang thing! Nothing. That is a preposterously corrupt organization. However, that does make it a really fun organization to play, once you accept it for what it is. :)

    quote:
    The Harpers conveniently don't have any clearly defined membership, charter, mission statement, legal permits, headquarters or offices, structured chain of command and responsibility, accurate accounting ledgers, 1-800 hotlines, nor even a website. They are basically a good-aligned pyramid scheme — you buy into the scam with some vague notion of "fighting evil" then try to sell your friends (or anyone else you can recruit) into buying into the scam under you ... if you are particularly successful you become "qualified" to volunteer for more difficult and dangerous work and perhaps even earn the option of buying some sort of "special training" with absolutely no real-world application outside of the Harper franchise.


    Your outlooks are fantastic. The 'Emperor has no Clothes.' They are a sham organization, passed off as "fighting the good fight for the common man." It's honestly a bunch of poppycock. At least when the Blackstaff went off to get things going with the Moonstars, he wasn't held back by the "Code of the Harpers." That code is an absolutely discarded set of rules when the powerful don't like them. Just ask Rundarl Moonsklan.

    quote:
    I personally suspect the Harpers are just a money-laundering front, an illegal import/export exchange, a spy network, a fencing and racketeering operation, a decentralized thieves' guild, a plausibly deniable elite black-ops corporate espionage corps, and what our society would call terrorists or guerillas.


    The fact that the Blackstaff gave the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings to Fzoul means he doesn't give any concern for the common man. He's just moving pawn pieces around.

    quote:
    I wouldn't be surprised to learn of power-mad corruption and clandestine religious wars unwittingly carried out by Harper pawns, even against members within the "same" organization. I wouldn't be surprised if agents or sleepers from other organizations (like Zhents) have infiltrated Harper ranks. (Detect Evil only goes so far, y'know.) Remember that Harpers never really deal with the organization, only with individuals ... it's quite possible that nobody really has a clue what the "organization" is really up to because there's really no cohesion or communication. Your Harper missions most likely involve whatever your Harper boss whimsically decides you should do.


    I will say, the only reason I "dislike" the Harper's is because they are pawned off as some "good" organization. It is all lies. Sure, there are some good people in there. That's a great cover. However, when you see the Blackstaff do what he did, yet Finder Wyvernspur, got..........hmmm.......let me check the record from the "court" proceedings.........life in prison because he screwed up regarding an apprentice and was arrogant, I think there are som priority issues in that organization.

    Best regards,







    Higher Atlar
    Spirit Soaring
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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
    Moderator

    USA
    36779 Posts

    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  03:52:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by cpthero2

    Great Reader Ayrik,

    Wow, fantastic post! I think the Harper's are generally speaking an incredibly corrupt, mafia like organization. Of course there are some good people in there, but generally not a "good" organization.

    Anyhow, I am here to clarify on some Leira material as I have her powerfully involved in my current and next campaign. Then, since I completely agree with you about the Harper's, I'll address your fantastic points! :)

    quote:
    A religious leader, exarch, chosen, or avatar of some non-Harper god. Mask, Leira, or Waukeen, perhaps.


    I have had the same thoughts, but haven't been able to find anything that pointed to it specifically. Have you found anything by chance? I'd love to read up on it if you have. It is usually those magazine articles that this stuff is found in.

    Now on to the other stuff! :)

    quote:
    The Harpers finance themselves through syndication of course. They've infiltrated positions of authority and have resources and revenue scattered throughout Waterdeep and the Lord's Alliance, the North, the Sword Coast, Cormyr, the Dales, the Moonsea, and beyond. Pretty much every church dedicated to Milil, Oghma, Denier, Silvanus, or *any* good-aligned goddess (most especially Selűne, Mielikki, Tymora, Larue, Lliira, Chauntea, Sune, even Mystra/Midnight) can function as a Harper stronghold and siphon funds into or through the Harper organization. They use secret gang symbols, signs, tattoos, and colours to mark their safehouses and turf and to identify members. And (judging from the novels) though the organization might contribute some lore and odd magical items toward important missions and quests, they aren't above the usual megacorporate practice of taking advantage of the naiveté and goodwill of their employees, ie: the burden of operational expenses (labour, travel costs, supplies, food and lodging, bribes) usually falls into the pockets of individual Harper agents who are typically given little more than token compensation in return.


    My god, I'd think you were secretly recording my thoughts! Yes. Yes, indeed. The Harper's are just too involved in things. They have their grubby little hands in too much, and when "leadership" (whatever that means) gets called to the carpet, guess what happens: not a dang thing! Nothing. That is a preposterously corrupt organization. However, that does make it a really fun organization to play, once you accept it for what it is. :)

    quote:
    The Harpers conveniently don't have any clearly defined membership, charter, mission statement, legal permits, headquarters or offices, structured chain of command and responsibility, accurate accounting ledgers, 1-800 hotlines, nor even a website. They are basically a good-aligned pyramid scheme — you buy into the scam with some vague notion of "fighting evil" then try to sell your friends (or anyone else you can recruit) into buying into the scam under you ... if you are particularly successful you become "qualified" to volunteer for more difficult and dangerous work and perhaps even earn the option of buying some sort of "special training" with absolutely no real-world application outside of the Harper franchise.


    Your outlooks are fantastic. The 'Emperor has no Clothes.' They are a sham organization, passed off as "fighting the good fight for the common man." It's honestly a bunch of poppycock. At least when the Blackstaff went off to get things going with the Moonstars, he wasn't held back by the "Code of the Harpers." That code is an absolutely discarded set of rules when the powerful don't like them. Just ask Rundarl Moonsklan.

    quote:
    I personally suspect the Harpers are just a money-laundering front, an illegal import/export exchange, a spy network, a fencing and racketeering operation, a decentralized thieves' guild, a plausibly deniable elite black-ops corporate espionage corps, and what our society would call terrorists or guerillas.


    The fact that the Blackstaff gave the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings to Fzoul means he doesn't give any concern for the common man. He's just moving pawn pieces around.

    quote:
    I wouldn't be surprised to learn of power-mad corruption and clandestine religious wars unwittingly carried out by Harper pawns, even against members within the "same" organization. I wouldn't be surprised if agents or sleepers from other organizations (like Zhents) have infiltrated Harper ranks. (Detect Evil only goes so far, y'know.) Remember that Harpers never really deal with the organization, only with individuals ... it's quite possible that nobody really has a clue what the "organization" is really up to because there's really no cohesion or communication. Your Harper missions most likely involve whatever your Harper boss whimsically decides you should do.


    I will say, the only reason I "dislike" the Harper's is because they are pawned off as some "good" organization. It is all lies. Sure, there are some good people in there. That's a great cover. However, when you see the Blackstaff do what he did, yet Finder Wyvernspur, got..........hmmm.......let me check the record from the "court" proceedings.........life in prison because he screwed up regarding an apprentice and was arrogant, I think there are som priority issues in that organization.

    Best regards,




    Once again, you bring up your anti-Khelben screed, which you simply cannot seem to resist trotting out at every opportunity. It's really remarkable, to me, how you ignore mountains of information and focus on one minor detail, and assume that one moment defines an entire existence. There's no proof of Harper corruption and loads of proof otherwise, but hey, one assumption and you spin it how you want. And Khelben has spent centuries working for the good of the common man, and even his deal with Fzoul was to the benefit of the entire freaking Sword Coast -- but hey, Fzoul did something bad, so that means you can ignore everything else that is known about Khelben and his actions and declare him to be evil.

    I'm getting really, REALLY tired of seeing you trotting these things out at every freaking opportunity. And no, don't ask me to debate -- I've tried that, and it was a waste of my time.

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    Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Nov 2020 03:54:01
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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  05:14:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I think my statements here (from ten years ago) were meant to provoke some skepticism. A sarcastic tone to emphasize/ridicule parts of the operations which aren't normally visible, to make readers ask themselves whether what they've read about Harpers is truly objective or if it's basically biased in-setting marketing/propaganda. To make readers question exactly how "unreliable" the "unreliable narrator" might be.

    [/Ayrik]
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    TheIriaeban
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  06:16:02  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Ayrik, your weapons-grade book probably uses (ironically) peace parchment. It is produced by the monks of Eldath at a monastery in the Far Hills (Monastery of the Placid Pond). Peace parchment was actually better than vellum (it did not rot, repelled bookworms, could not be saturated with water/hydrophobic, and got a +2 bonus to fire saves). But, you better move quick. There is a monastery of Oghma that is also in the Far Hills that will want to buy every scrap of it as soon as they find out about it.

    "Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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    Edited by - TheIriaeban on 23 Nov 2020 06:19:47
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    sleyvas
    Skilled Spell Strategist

    USA
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  16:03:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ayrik

    I think my statements here (from ten years ago) were meant to provoke some skepticism. A sarcastic tone to emphasize/ridicule parts of the operations which aren't normally visible, to make readers ask themselves whether what they've read about Harpers is truly objective or if it's basically biased in-setting marketing/propaganda. To make readers question exactly how "unreliable" the "unreliable narrator" might be.



    It's a good idea. Basically, throwing in some corruption into the harpers makes a lot of sense given that it is so fluid for leadership. Its natural that some people would set themselves up in positions of power possibly without even really questioning their own motives and making excuses. I wouldn't go so far as to make it an entirely criminal organization from the top, but the idea that the founders like Elminster, Storm, etc... might be getting the wool pulled over their eyes while they're looking in on some other issue. It doesn't even need to be outright evil. It can be a misunderstanding where some leadership in say the north considers cheating Calishites "ok" because "all of those Calishite traders are criminals anyway". One need only look at our own world to find similar situations where one group feels that they need to "guide" things because "other groups don't know what's right", and they use their own self-righteous belief in themselves to qualify that what they think is correct.

    Or to put it more succinctly and broadly (and therefore less specific as well).... the harpers as presented are meant for a play style that's less believable and geared towards a simpler game where a DM just points and say "these are the good guys", and if one were to include more realism in the game the way that its currently setup is ripe for corruptive influence. Neither style of play is necessarily bad, but from a story perspective, I'd find the one with more realism much more interesting.

    Along these same lines, so many things in the game are of a similar bent. Elves are presented as "good", but then later people started questioning this and putting in elitist elves who focus on their own race's needs before others. There's other examples I could throw up, but I also don't want to light a stick of dynamite around here, and I think I made my point... I agree, the harper's lack of definition and "broad" goals make them a bit unbelievable and open for corruption.... but they do have good propagandists and sometimes that is an extremely effective tool.

    Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

    Phillip aka Sleyvas
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    Ayrik
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  16:30:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Bards and priests are the finest propaganda agents silver can buy, lol. Especially since half of them sing praises about the Harpers without having any actual connection to the Harpers at all.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Gary Dallison
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  18:09:30  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).

    Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.

    As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
    Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.


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    Wooly Rupert
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  18:27:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I would imagine you could have corrupt individuals within the Harpers, but I'd expect them to be isolated, or working with one or two other corrupt Harpers, at best.

    I can also see them keeping money from evil groups, though I don't see them ignoring evil actions until they'd milked the group dry. If they were going to take action against a group, then they're trying to stamp out what that group is doing -- not dip their own hands into the till.

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    TheIriaeban
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  18:40:47  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I found this while digging around for something else in Amn & Tethyr: Lands of Intrigue (Book Three page 20):

    "By the Year of the Dracorage (1018 DR), the Twisted Rune was the largest power group in southwestern Faerün, with agents infiltrating the power structures of every country and city south of the High Moor and west of the Storm Horn Mountains."

    If they are in Berdusk's government, they are in the Harpers.

    "Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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    sleyvas
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  19:09:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Gary Dallison

    Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).

    Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.

    As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
    Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.



    Yep, I bet some harpers are simply "murder hobos" who claim what they're doing is good (and it may be), but in the end they're just grabbing loot. Since there is no real leadership, who do they hand over all the magic items or gained jewelry, gems, coin, trade bars to? Even if they are handing the loot they gained up to whoever got them into the harpers, who is to say that THAT person is even a harper. It could be someone who made the harper symbols into pins and told a bunch of folks "you're working for the harpers now... hey go raid those zhent caravans and bring me back all their money... um, so I can help those sick orphans over there". They might even take some money and help the sick orphans, you know... to make it look legit to their new adventurers long enough to send them to go rob some other group for them....

    Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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    Wooly Rupert
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  20:24:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by TheIriaeban

    I found this while digging around for something else in Amn & Tethyr: Lands of Intrigue (Book Three page 20):

    "By the Year of the Dracorage (1018 DR), the Twisted Rune was the largest power group in southwestern Faerün, with agents infiltrating the power structures of every country and city south of the High Moor and west of the Storm Horn Mountains."

    If they are in Berdusk's government, they are in the Harpers.



    That was centuries ago. Just because they infiltrated a local government for a time centuries ago, it doesn't mean they have anything at all going on there now.

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    Wooly Rupert
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  20:29:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas

    quote:
    Originally posted by Gary Dallison

    Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).

    Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.

    As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
    Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.



    Yep, I bet some harpers are simply "murder hobos" who claim what they're doing is good (and it may be), but in the end they're just grabbing loot. Since there is no real leadership, who do they hand over all the magic items or gained jewelry, gems, coin, trade bars to? Even if they are handing the loot they gained up to whoever got them into the harpers, who is to say that THAT person is even a harper. It could be someone who made the harper symbols into pins and told a bunch of folks "you're working for the harpers now... hey go raid those zhent caravans and bring me back all their money... um, so I can help those sick orphans over there". They might even take some money and help the sick orphans, you know... to make it look legit to their new adventurers long enough to send them to go rob some other group for them....



    But we've seen that the Harpers do police their own -- so someone riding the Harper name and not advancing Harper causes is not going to be able to do it for long.

    And Harper adventurers generally don't go around announcing their presence as Harpers, either, since that would invite even more negative attention from certain directions than just being an adventurer would. Anyone who announces to the world that they are a Harper is going to get a lot of powerful enemies, very quickly.

    The best way for there to be a corrupt Harper would be if it was someone who kept a low profile and was in a position to do things unseen -- like maybe a shopkeep who's a Harper, but is also giving info to another group.

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    sleyvas
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  21:17:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas

    quote:
    Originally posted by Gary Dallison

    Now this is my kind of thread. Since reading Song of the Saurials I've been mulling over how far the corruption of moander might have spread in the organisation (and cyrylia dragonbreast got ill with an incurable and undiagnosable disease very suddenly).

    Actual evil infiltration aside though, every organisation should have the overly zealous type evil, the morally dubious but highly skilled type evil, the naive and ignorant type of evil. None of these believe themselves to be evil but are found everywhere and either commit evil themselves in the name of righteousness or allow it to be committed through inaction.

    As for money. The Harpers have many people killed and break up many evil organisations all over faerun, why not steal their assets.
    Why not deliberately infiltrate evil organisations and funnel their riches away towards the Harpers, allowing the Harpers to get info and grow rich from the infiltrated evil, only destroying it when it is poor and of no more use.



    Yep, I bet some harpers are simply "murder hobos" who claim what they're doing is good (and it may be), but in the end they're just grabbing loot. Since there is no real leadership, who do they hand over all the magic items or gained jewelry, gems, coin, trade bars to? Even if they are handing the loot they gained up to whoever got them into the harpers, who is to say that THAT person is even a harper. It could be someone who made the harper symbols into pins and told a bunch of folks "you're working for the harpers now... hey go raid those zhent caravans and bring me back all their money... um, so I can help those sick orphans over there". They might even take some money and help the sick orphans, you know... to make it look legit to their new adventurers long enough to send them to go rob some other group for them....



    But we've seen that the Harpers do police their own -- so someone riding the Harper name and not advancing Harper causes is not going to be able to do it for long.

    And Harper adventurers generally don't go around announcing their presence as Harpers, either, since that would invite even more negative attention from certain directions than just being an adventurer would. Anyone who announces to the world that they are a Harper is going to get a lot of powerful enemies, very quickly.

    The best way for there to be a corrupt Harper would be if it was someone who kept a low profile and was in a position to do things unseen -- like maybe a shopkeep who's a Harper, but is also giving info to another group.



    This is exactly why I'm saying it would be easy for someone to set themselves up for this fake harper scenario. They tell the people they recruit that they have to keep it quiet as to who did it. The harpers can't police that which they don't know about.

    Then for those actually working within the harpers, their secretive nature means that their superiors might not know everything that's going on with those beneath them. There's no structure in place that forces this kind of honesty and sharing. In fact, their structure is focused around secrecy. In a broad, continent spanning organization, this becomes extremely untenable and open to abuse by its very nature.

    Kind of openly speaking about it like this makes me look for the issues more and it makes me see the flaws in it much more. I can definitely see other groups like the twisted rune infiltrating them, and I wouldn't be surprised to find groups like the knights of the shield, etc... infiltrating them. Not necessarily acting as agents mind you, but gathering information from them possibly by interacting with them, spying on them, etc... The secretive nature of the harpers might slow this, but these groups are specifically information gatherers, so I can see them being effective at rooting out harpers.

    Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

    Phillip aka Sleyvas
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    Wooly Rupert
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    Posted - 23 Nov 2020 :  22:10:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Yeah, but if these fake Harpers are not telling people that they're Harpers, then what's the point? They can't tell real Harpers and they aren't telling non-Harpers, so there's no benefit.

    Besides, I'm sure there's certain requirements, within the group, for who can and can't recruit people.

    And with it being canon that false Harpers are hunted down, then it's clear that not only is membership tracked, but that they also keep their ears to the ground... This is especially easy given the heavy presence of bards in the group.

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