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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3066 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2011 :  20:42:46  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SOOOO many people on here need to learn how to use the "Spoiler Warning."

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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Seabus Mythforger
Learned Scribe

76 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2011 :  01:33:30  Show Profile Send Seabus Mythforger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree to the point that RAS should delve into more of the Realms other than Drizzt. Don't kill off the character or anything but take some time to bring us some new stories with new characters as well as bringing Drizzt around once in a while. What I think would be best is if he wrote new trilogies/series with new characters/setting/events and dropped those on a once/twice a year basis while dropping a new Drizzt standalone every year and a half/two years and get WotC to up his page limit for Drizzt novels. I would gladly take a 450-500 page Drizzt novel every 18-24 months while still reading other great stories that he could tell. And I do think it's time for him to leave the drow and the Underdark behind him. He created a great world with the Underdark and the drow but he's such a great author that it's time for him to expand further into the Realms. To prove this point I suggest everyone (who hasn't already) to read his Demon Wars Saga. They're amazing and showcase his talent for sword and sorcery story-telling better than even his earlier Drizzt novels.

~Seabus Mythforger,
Renegade Mage
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Tasker Daze
Learned Scribe

80 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2011 :  04:26:54  Show Profile Send Tasker Daze a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've read a couple of RAS's non-Drizzit books. And I really didn't like them.

For or against something doesn't matter. Just don't be the hind-end of a rothe about it.
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Yoss
Learned Scribe

USA
259 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2011 :  05:05:30  Show Profile Send Yoss a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm somewhere between the "I love all or most of his Realms books" and "I liked his novels but at some point I eventually moved away from them." I have enjoyed most of them, and can't really say I've moved away from them if I'm still reading them. If I'd moved away from them entirely, there would have been no mad dash to Barnes & Noble last Tuesday when I realized half an hour before closing that it was Tuesday (because 13 bucks for an e-book is nuts, but apparently I have no problem spending an extra 10 bucks if it means I get an actual book...but I digress). This probably has a lot to do with the fact that I never read any of his stuff until the beginning of this year. Had I been waiting one-book-a-year throughout the Hunter's Blade trilogy, I'd definitely have moved away from Drizzt. I stopped caring about that character & friends probably right around Siege of Darkness. On the one hand, I would definitely say I've enjoyed more RAS FR stuff than I've disliked. And most of the ones I was less thrilled about reading were simply viewed as things standing between me and catching up to Gauntlgrym. Since I'd read plenty of Barrabus-is-Entreri spoilers, and sometimes have a tendency to complete things that come in a series (or at least hanging on much longer than I should after I've decided I don't like it anymore--"maybe the next one won't suck, maybe it will be good again!")

The first two trilogies were excellent, and I've pretty much loved everything featuring Entreri and Jarlaxle (in Menzoberranzan, the short stories, Sellswords trilogy, like I said: everything with those two). But I can see why people 1) are and never were fans to begin with 2) feel the super good guy thing has been incredibly played out 3) prefer something more than a relatively straight-forward and linear storytelling. Your lore is going to be very limited and skewed if your novel-base comes primarily from RAS' work, because it's far more character-oriented and pertains to their stories, it seems to me that other authors do a far better job showcasing the sights/sounds/smells of the Realms. If you for some reason despise melee fighting classes, of course you're not going to want to read book after book primarily about someone who dual-wields scimitars. Sometimes Ed Greenwood's style drives me batty because I do like a story that reads like "they found the cave. then they fought some bad guys. and after that they looted the treasure." Jumping from one plotline to another, breaking to introduce characters that you will see again in 100 pages (or perhaps never see again, only existed for that one short side-tale), is too much like I talk, and I'm constantly going off on tangents, forgetting what I said and coming back to that 2 hours later, or writing incredibly long, run-on sentences on message boards. At the same time, though, I do see how a story that progresses from point A to G via B,C,D,E, and F all in that exact order can grow tiresome and boring. And the Drizzt/Catti-brie relationship was far from a favorite of mine, so I do have a hard time disagreeing with anyone who wants to hate on that. And they're not without continuity flaws. Being 1) a non-gamer novel-reader and 2) still a noob/FNG, I can overlook a lot of them out of sheer ignorance (which I am trying to correct by reading more) when they are issues due to time-line nitpicking--chalk it up to that shared world thing. Or with an all-knowing supernerd smirk when they're continuity issues in RAS' own work itself. They don't bother me (yet), but I do see how they could be annoying.
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
792 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2011 :  18:58:46  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My favorite characters are Kimmuriel, Robillard, and Cadderly....so I wish he would write less about Mary Sue Drizzt.
Guantlgrym was a great way to send off one of his characters (no spoilers) but two particular send offs seemed really poorly done of the Companions of the Hall (you know which two I mean). Although he has brought characters back from the dead many times.

I do like his books tho a great deal. I just find Mary Sue Drizzt to be way too perfect all the time.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6398 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2011 :  01:12:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think the Mary Sue argument is entirely applicable to Drizzt. Drizzt is iconic, the prototype of his kind, and (as said before) immensely popular. I don't blame Wizbro and RAS for pumping Drizzt when people avidly buy everything with his name on it. True, Drizzt's lost a lot of popularity over time for being a big emo full of brooding angst, but in all fairness this tendency seems to have been toned down (or at least shifted onto other characters) to free up old Drizzy's time for more acrobatic deathblading and dark elfy coolness.

I think the main problem is that I've just grown a little (well, a lot) tired of Drizzt, and I'm not alone; lots of people have just had enough. But I recall my introduction to the Realms, my rapt fascination, my unbelieving enthusiasm ... Drizzt was great, he was kickass, he was killa phat gangs. Since he hasn't changed all that much I can only conclude that I have. Although I might be completely sick of hearing about Drizzt I can still heartily recommend his books to others, especially to people recently captivated by the Realms, in the hopes that others will experience some Drizzt in the same positive manner. More power to those who love Drizzt, just don't count on me being one of them.

[/Ayrik]
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HardKano
Learned Scribe

Canada
156 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  01:54:54  Show Profile  Click to see HardKano's MSN Messenger address Send HardKano a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have read all the Drizzt Saga (exept neverwinter trilogy, i wait for the last one to read them in a row... 1&2 already waiting in my bookshelf, signed) and the sellswords trilogy. I really like the way he put the characters into life and the immersion within their feelings. Many things cross different series and its sweet to put a '!' on a thing about a character in a series that is "release" in another one.

I have stoped a bit reading his books for 1 year now to read other FR books and see what else is around.

I'll probally restart when the last neverwinter novel will be release

There is only one thing that will never change : Evolution
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3066 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  13:16:38  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HardKano

I have read all the Drizzt Saga (exept neverwinter trilogy, i wait for the last one to read them in a row... 1&2 already waiting in my bookshelf, signed) and the sellswords trilogy. I really like the way he put the characters into life and the immersion within their feelings. Many things cross different series and its sweet to put a '!' on a thing about a character in a series that is "release" in another one.

I have stoped a bit reading his books for 1 year now to read other FR books and see what else is around.

I'll probally restart when the last neverwinter novel will be release



I can see why some people liked that he had his characters from both realms series overlap, but i did not care for it. I sort of felt like a shamless plug to me, as if WoTC came to Salvatore and said :"Sales for the Cleric Quintet are down, see what you can do to increase them." I still need to read the Transitions Trilogy and the Neverwinter books.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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HardKano
Learned Scribe

Canada
156 Posts

Posted - 04 Nov 2011 :  19:55:14  Show Profile  Click to see HardKano's MSN Messenger address Send HardKano a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unfortunately, many things are stick to sales objectives ! And its not only in Forgotten Realms matters ... Every thing need to "seduce" a type of reader to get them and sell books !

There is only one thing that will never change : Evolution
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2011 :  00:27:59  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

I can see why some people liked that he had his characters from both realms series overlap, but i did not care for it. I sort of felt like a shamless plug to me, as if WoTC came to Salvatore and said :"Sales for the Cleric Quintet are down, see what you can do to increase them." I still need to read the Transitions Trilogy and the Neverwinter books.

Originally, RAS began writing "The Cleric Quintet" to get away from the Drizzt Saga. Bob was actually very eager to pursue this new character of Cadderly Bonaduce, no matter how popular Drizzt had already become.

He was only halfway through this other series when he began being pressured (by fans and TSR) to start up the Drizzt stories once again. So he actually started writing the "Legacy of the Drow" mini-series while he was also finishing the writing of "TCQ".

And I don't think that that chain of events allowed him to focus as intently on "TCQ" as he otherwise would've liked. It certainly divided his attention and his energies. So Bob probably wanted to pick up the Cadderly stories ever since. There was no need for publisher pressure to drive him into it.

TSR and RAS had a falling-out over different issues, most notably the aforementioned workload being demanded of him, and RAS decided to finish up his contract at the time with the novel Passage to Dawn. Since he thought this would be his last book set in the Realms, it was he--Bob Salvatore--who decided to merge the two different Realms storylines together. He wanted to enjoy playing with both sets of characters before he--and they--set off into the sunset. And he left off that tale with the Companions determined to see Cadderly yet again, regardless of TSR's intentions for the characters.

Later on, after RAS and WOTC kissed and made up, RAS finally did check in on Cadderly and Co. again in the book Servant of the Shard. There is no evidence that the publisher pushed him into this. He did it because, as mentioned, he clearly had already been wanting to for years.

WOTC, in turn, re-released "TCQ" as individual paperbacks, and then in an omnibus collector's edition.

And later still, the Spellplague probably struck RAS as an excellent opportunity to once again re-visit the powerful cleric Cadderly Bonaduce, in the novel The Ghost King. With the gods and magic going all wonky, Cadderly would certainly be the most logical RAS character to directly and dramatically experience that particular RSE. (If anything, it was the inclusion of the Crystal Shard in the story that comes across as a little clumsy and contrived--not that of the magical priest Cadderly.)

At any rate, WOTC then probably saw RAS's decision to drop in on Cadderly again as an excellent way to try to sell more "TCQ" books. In an effort to make "TCQ" sound more relevant, before TGK was even published, WOTC even re-packaged that series as a sort of "prequel" to TGK.

So I think you got the sequence/order or causative relationship backwards.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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HardKano
Learned Scribe

Canada
156 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2011 :  00:53:00  Show Profile  Click to see HardKano's MSN Messenger address Send HardKano a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info, very interresting

There is only one thing that will never change : Evolution
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3066 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2011 :  14:14:55  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST

quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

I can see why some people liked that he had his characters from both realms series overlap, but i did not care for it. I sort of felt like a shamless plug to me, as if WoTC came to Salvatore and said :"Sales for the Cleric Quintet are down, see what you can do to increase them." I still need to read the Transitions Trilogy and the Neverwinter books.

Originally, RAS began writing "The Cleric Quintet" to get away from the Drizzt Saga. Bob was actually very eager to pursue this new character of Cadderly Bonaduce, no matter how popular Drizzt had already become.

He was only halfway through this other series when he began being pressured (by fans and TSR) to start up the Drizzt stories once again. So he actually started writing the "Legacy of the Drow" mini-series while he was also finishing the writing of "TCQ".

And I don't think that that chain of events allowed him to focus as intently on "TCQ" as he otherwise would've liked. It certainly divided his attention and his energies. So Bob probably wanted to pick up the Cadderly stories ever since. There was no need for publisher pressure to drive him into it.

TSR and RAS had a falling-out over different issues, most notably the aforementioned workload being demanded of him, and RAS decided to finish up his contract at the time with the novel Passage to Dawn. Since he thought this would be his last book set in the Realms, it was he--Bob Salvatore--who decided to merge the two different Realms storylines together. He wanted to enjoy playing with both sets of characters before he--and they--set off into the sunset. And he left off that tale with the Companions determined to see Cadderly yet again, regardless of TSR's intentions for the characters.

Later on, after RAS and WOTC kissed and made up, RAS finally did check in on Cadderly and Co. again in the book Servant of the Shard. There is no evidence that the publisher pushed him into this. He did it because, as mentioned, he clearly had already been wanting to for years.

WOTC, in turn, re-released "TCQ" as individual paperbacks, and then in an omnibus collector's edition.

And later still, the Spellplague probably struck RAS as an excellent opportunity to once again re-visit the powerful cleric Cadderly Bonaduce, in the novel The Ghost King. With the gods and magic going all wonky, Cadderly would certainly be the most logical RAS character to directly and dramatically experience that particular RSE. (If anything, it was the inclusion of the Crystal Shard in the story that comes across as a little clumsy and contrived--not that of the magical priest Cadderly.)

At any rate, WOTC then probably saw RAS's decision to drop in on Cadderly again as an excellent way to try to sell more "TCQ" books. In an effort to make "TCQ" sound more relevant, before TGK was even published, WOTC even re-packaged that series as a sort of "prequel" to TGK.

So I think you got the sequence/order or causative relationship backwards.



None of that changes the fact that i don't care for the way Salvatore blended both of his different series together. This would have been a great opportunity for him to create some new characters to help Drizzt deal with the Crystal Shard and so on and so forth. Instead he decided to have all of his established characters get together, when in "real life" they probably would never have met. I'm not saying he was right or wrong, that's just my opinion.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Be my friend on Goodreads.com: http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/6751111-brian
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jornan
Learned Scribe

Canada
256 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2011 :  02:59:29  Show Profile  Click to see jornan's MSN Messenger address Send jornan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But isn't the realms all about unlikely meetings. Look at any Greenwood book and his characters from all over the realms have a tendency to run into each other. I fail to see why it is any different than in an RAS book and personally like the inter-relation between series. Bruce Kordell did the same thing with various characters and even a weapon. Richard Lee Byers has taken parts from two completely different series and melded aspects of both into on (Rogue Dragons+Haunted Lands = Brotherhood of the Griffon). Honestly, I like it when stories are interwoven, it makes the Realms feel more connected and alive. It also makes me believe that the plots of one book can have implications for another.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2011 :  03:31:21  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478

None of that changes the fact that i don't care for the way Salvatore blended both of his different series together.

Are you referring to the first time when they met, in Passage to Dawn? Having Harkle Harpell magically fuse them together was both silly and contrived. But that's a Harpell for you!

After that meeting, though, Cadderly was probably the foremost goodly magic-user in Drizzt's personal circle. (There is no evidence that Drizzt has ever met with Elminster, yet.) So it makes since to me that Drizzt would seek assistance from Cadderly to destroy the Crystal Shard (The Silent Blade; cf. Servant of the Shard), and then again to really really destroy it (The Ghost King).

It's not like he would've gone to the Harpells!

quote:
This would have been a great opportunity for him to create some new characters to help Drizzt deal with the Crystal Shard and so on and so forth.

Aye.

Perhaps Bob's great skill with visualizing melee as opposed to magic made him a little reluctant to create a new magic-user? Maybe that made it easier for him to fall back on one of his established characters?

I also think that he never has felt that he got to explore Cadderly as deeply as he wanted to, originally. He's always felt like there was something more he could or should do with the guy.

As the second Realms novelist when he was still quite young himself, Bob harkens back to a time when authors were advised to play in their own little corner of the Realms and not interfere with other writers' characters and lands. Obviously, over time that edict became impossible to follow, as the Realms are all inter-connected. But Bob has still had a tendency to isolate his characters from the larger Realms. Some observers have noted that this leads to many RAS fans failing to ever learn about the rest of the Realms, over-estimating the power/impact/etc. of Drizzt, etc. At any rate, I think this could be a case of Bob working within his own comfort zone partially based on past requirements of the publisher.

quote:
Instead he decided to have all of his established characters get together, when in "real life" they probably would never have met. I'm not saying he was right or wrong, that's just my opinion.

I wonder which is more likely: that Drizzt would've intentionally sought out an audience with Elminster, or that Harkle would've screwed up and accidentally introduced Drizzt to a third magic-user in the form of Cadderly?

RAS has acknowledged Elminster in his stories, perhaps indicating that Drizzt knows of the archmage's public exploits, but he's never shown that Drizzt has had any interest in actually meeting El.

Drizzt inherited a preference for the blade over the wand from his father. It may be that Drizzt would never intentionally seek out any mage at all, unless chance had already brought them together in the past and made them comfortable with each other.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Yoss
Learned Scribe

USA
259 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2011 :  10:20:32  Show Profile Send Yoss a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking I would have liked to see them go to Khelben or borrow someone established if RAS wasn't going to create a new character. Getting to Waterdeep would have left out the whole Harpell thing (not a fan), and after a while I just ended up finding Cadderly irritating. I liked him for the first couple books of the cleric quintet, but I think in the end I have very little tolerance for priests. I believe there is a certain Entreri quote that belongs here regarding "supposed goodly priests."
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2011 :  03:11:15  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
R.A. Salvatore's novels are great. If he writes it I will most likely read it. Realms or not, Drizzt or not.

I am a fan of Drizzt, but it would indeed be great if he could write more non-Drizzt realms fiction or at least let Drizzt fade to the background as new characters are able to be developed.

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien
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Tarloc
Seeker

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2011 :  03:40:03  Show Profile Send Tarloc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ive known since i first read athrogate was from the north, that the sellswords would end up meeting drizzt. this is heading for new companions series. drizzt, dahlia, artemis, jarlaxle, athrogate. i will read this or any other fr novel ras writes. hesitance one of the greats

"hey, you just rolled two natural twenties!"
"is that a touchdown?"
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe

194 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2011 :  05:47:14  Show Profile Send Thrasymachus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Salvatore could write on toilet paper, and I would buy it. Just as long as it's set in the Realms. Nothing against his other work. I haven't tried it... yet.


Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon".
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Tarloc
Seeker

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2011 :  06:01:16  Show Profile Send Tarloc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
used toilet paper even. his demon stone are good.....when waiting for a new fr to come out! what do you think of the new companions? it will be the dark side of being heros. but all the others could pass as long as drizz-it and entreri live on. those two together equal action

"hey, you just rolled two natural twenties!"
"is that a touchdown?"
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Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe

194 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2011 :  06:48:13  Show Profile Send Thrasymachus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't started the Neverwinter Trilogy, and won't until a month before the third book comes out. I drive myself batty otherwise.


Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon".
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Tarloc
Seeker

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2011 :  06:58:03  Show Profile Send Tarloc a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i wish i was that disciplined. save a lot of "no! it cant end there!" from happening. end of siege of darkness and silent blade two salvatore that cliffhang.

"hey, you just rolled two natural twenties!"
"is that a touchdown?"
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Shifty
Acolyte

Canada
2 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2012 :  05:15:29  Show Profile Send Shifty a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love RASís books and still eagerly await each new release... then hoard it away to save for a day when I really need a good book to soak into. But that said, I agree with others here and would really enjoy seeing him write some more non-Drizzt FR stuff.
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2012 :  11:13:06  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have liked all of his books, cant say that any have been bad and have loved quite a few.
But then once i become a fan of a particular author or series i tend to be very loyal.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  00:24:30  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil

But then once i become a fan of a particular author or series i tend to be very loyal.


Agreed. Often, I even "forgive" any inconsistencies or shortcomings. [That doesn't mean I like RAS, though.]

Every beginning has an end.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1478 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2012 :  04:05:37  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My problem with Salvatore is that he's a really good writer and an outrageous hack. Without the first part, there won't be a good reason to read, without second there won't be a reason to roll eyes in pain.
I mean, as in "writing blocks don't stop him, and not in a good sense". So it's one good page, two fair pages, then oops... here it rolls: blunt tool villain ball strikes, then emo-conan (not just The Dark And Brooding One - the protagonist of Cleric is exactly like him sometimes), one fair page, then a 5-ton villain ball set to stun, half a fair page, kindergarten philosophy, one fair page, villain ball. At this point i'm about to close it and never ever open again, but! Look, the author got a new bout of inspiration, so it's good. I know there will be two pages of really good text plus four of palatable, then a villain ball is going to hit so hard my eyes will roll under the table to spin and bounce there for a hour... but keep reading.
Of course, later Salvatore is way better writer than early, and at times shows a lot of common sense, but the trend didn't just go away, there's just more good and fair pages between various villain balls, emo-conan, and weird attempts at "philosophical" musings.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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