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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13092 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2011 :  16:44:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
@Aldrick: My assumption is that EVERYTHING we read about 'a god' (including domains, etc) amounts to less then 1% of 'the truth' about such things. Some lore is outright lies, but most is just mis-information or even more frequently, missing information.

I think Faerūn is fairly unique in that instead of an uber-pantheon running the show, you have lots of little ones (which I call a Karass, borrowing a term from Cat's Cradle). You have 'circles of gods' (usually, but not always three) that are in-charge of particular, hard-to-define over-concepts, like 'evil', 'war', or 'nature'. And, of course, there is quite a bit of overlap.

But, thinking further, is this NOT what Earth mythology is like? In most cases RW major religions did not have to contend with blending others into their own (the Romans being a notable exception). We think of that FR is so different from our world in this regard, but is it really? If Odin was THE 'High God', then how does he relate to Zeus, Vishnu, or Ra? The 'High god' of each of those religions was only the LOCAL High-God, and his/her power outside of his pantheon and areas of interest is questionable.

Much as it is with the 'mini-pantheons' within FR's own cosmology. And before I get in trouble.....
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

In other words, are there some priests / clergy of the various faiths that are simply mundane people who tend to the faithful and conduct various rituals? Or when someone encounters a priest of a deity will they always possess some measure of divine spell casting ability?
I would be much interested in an answer to this as well. I never really liked the D&D concept that EVERY priest 'did magic'.
quote:
Originally posted by The_Silversword

<snip> Comparing the 4e map to the older maps its looks like the entire city has moved several miles to the south, I realize that the Spellplague and the draining of the Sea of Fallen Stars would change the area up some, but it still seems like a heck of a move. So I guess the docks would be on the south side of the city now? And would they have reorganized the different districts to correspond to the location of the new docks? Is there still alot of gem mining done in the area? I had always assumed that they had mines in the mountains to the north, but it looks as if they moved further away from the mountains. So did the city really move that much or is the map just a little off? Sorry thats more than one question, I guess my main question for Ed (or anyone for that matter) is if there are any tid bits you could share on Procampur, coat of arms, popular food and drinks, how the city has changed after the Spellplague, anything? I wasn't sure where to post this at but I figure as far as the Realms go Eds the man!
The 4e map is a 'stylized representation' and NOT an accurate depiction. Rich Baker covered this in the "Ask the Designers" thread when 4e was released. It was left vague on purpose, and locales are placed in such a way as to represent their general vicinity, and NOT their actual geographic location.

This is the case with ALL editions, BTW, with the 'world map', but much more pronounced with the 4e one. A world map cannot accurately show the position of something as 'tiny' as a population center - you need to always reference smaller, regional maps when available.

Ed has told us that the Fonstad maps (in FRIA) are the most accurate, if that helps. Assume, unless something in 4e SPECIFICALLY says something has 'moved' (like the coast in certain places), that it is still in the same place it always was in (for example, check both of the maps that came with Brian R. James' DDi articles).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 May 2011 17:27:09
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2011 :  17:26:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message

Ed,

Who's the oldest living/existing wizard in Toril? Is it the Teraseer? I understand he's not the only one left of his kind, so I'm guessing there could be someone older than him... Or, if he survived the explosion of the stone, is it Madryoch, the Imaskari archmage featured in Richard Baker's Shadow Stone?

Every beginning has an end.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2011 :  19:13:23  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Sorry, Dennis, but the "oldest surviving wizard" lore you seek is specifically NDA'd, and has been for years. Ed tells me it's neither the Teraseer nor Madryoch.
And I can confirm what Markustay said: aside from Ed's own maps (which are almost all small in scope, covering small locales), Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps are the "most accurate." Not that certain things don't change over time, mind you.
Ed did map Procampur in detail, but back in the early 3e days, the city was given to a German branch of the RPGA to be a setting for their ongoing campaign, so answering queries about it in detail is ... tricky.
love,
THO
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2011 :  20:56:07  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Hello all,

Ed who have been some of the great Sherlock Holmes type NPC's through the 1300's who didn't rely on magic or were had mostly expert class levels?
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2011 :  21:43:59  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
createvmind, this happens to be a topic that interests me, and Ed and I have had several talks about it, in addition to what's arisen during play sessions.
So I can tell you that many of the largest cities along the Sword Coast, in the 1350s DR, have "investigators" who try to solve crimes and murders. Some of them are members of the local lawkeepers (usually "the Watch") and some are private, for hire, "truthdelvers."
Ed has told me that, as of this time, private investigators who had no spellcasting skills (beyond, in some cases, some minor sorcerous "wild talents" or psionics) include:

Waterdeep: Laraskran "the Lucky" of Castle Ward; Belzidar "Eagle Eyed" Tanthar of North Ward; and the young, agile, defiant prostitute and thief Garlatha Nightcowl, of Dock Ward.

Suzail: the old, infirm, "forget nothing" Elmurt the Wise; Harrigo Tallowhar (often hired by the Palace, and eventually viewed by some as their undercover agent); and Maelra Evenbird (a pretty, sophisticated socialite who ferrets secrets and underlying truths out of the gossip and posturings of the wealthy, noble, and Court-connected).

Silverymoon: Faeldrin "Flameharp" Oxlardryn, a minstrel of more charm than musicianship; Tarharla "Mooneyes" Draekyn, a half-elf whose eyes are unusually large and dark, but glow at her emotional extremes; and "Old Rakh" Mresker Rakhrilyon, a gruff, short, hairy dung-carter and handyman and roofer with shady connections and a large reckless streak.

Athkatla: Morold Dreen, a nondescript, middle-aged reformed swindler who (it's said) can "smell hidden coin;" Redrantha Vaulheron, a tall, gaunt former prostitute turned large-holdings landlord, who watches the doings of her tentants very closely; and Mundrigo Stlanlathur, a glib master actor of a coin-runner and clerk (whose day job is collecting fees and payments and taking contracts and agreements to be signed, but whose sideline is learning and seeing things, for fees).

These come from Ed's notes, confirmed with a chat with him, but they are by NO means comprehensive. These are just a few of the most notorious/best known individuals.
Hope this helps,
love,
THO
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe

USA
489 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2011 :  05:53:25  Show Profile  Visit Joran Nobleheart's Homepage Send Joran Nobleheart a Private Message
Hello, Lady THO. I was just wanting to ask to see if you received the private message I sent you. Sometimes there isn't any indication a message has been sent in an Outbox, and this is one of those times, I'm afraid. If I need to send it again (since I have it saved), please let me know. My best to you, as always.

Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart
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createvmind
Senior Scribe

490 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2011 :  16:13:34  Show Profile  Visit createvmind's Homepage Send createvmind a Private Message
Thank you Lady.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2011 :  18:04:29  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi, Joran! Received and replied to...
love,
THO
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore

1221 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2011 :  00:46:28  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Asmodeus's Homepage Send Chosen of Asmodeus a Private Message
I was wondering if Ed had any details he could share about any slave revolts, uprisings, and so forth, perferably large scale, in Faerun's past. The more details that can be shared, the better. Thank you.

"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress

Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.

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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  04:40:00  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
Hi THO,
I have a couple of questions regarding mythal lore for Ed.

Mythals are locked to a specific locale, with internal spatial indicators.

Do these spatial indicators interact with each other and the energy of the mythal to shape, or maintain the shape, of the mythal?

Mythals can move through (space-time), as indicated by the mountain sheared Enclaves.

Would a dimensional transposition effect with an area that exceeded the boundaries of a mythal be able to juxtapose that mythal and the Prime surrounding it with AlternatePrime or Outer Planar matter?

(And I guess finally, though I'm certain to think up more as soon as I post this...)

How did Thultanthar's mythal escape sundering when it fled Faerun to Shadow?

Thank you very much Ed for this crazy world of endless adventure.

Brace Cormaeril
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29637 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  05:34:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Hi THO,
I have a couple of questions regarding mythal lore for Ed.

Mythals are locked to a specific locale, with internal spatial indicators.

Do these spatial indicators interact with each other and the energy of the mythal to shape, or maintain the shape, of the mythal?

Mythals can move through (space-time), as indicated by the mountain sheared Enclaves.

Would a dimensional transposition effect with an area that exceeded the boundaries of a mythal be able to juxtapose that mythal and the Prime surrounding it with AlternatePrime or Outer Planar matter?

(And I guess finally, though I'm certain to think up more as soon as I post this...)

How did Thultanthar's mythal escape sundering when it fled Faerun to Shadow?

Thank you very much Ed for this crazy world of endless adventure.



The Netherese enclaves did not have mythals. They had mythallars. Despite the unfortunate similarity in the names, the two constructs are not the same. One is a field of magic that surrounds a fixed area and provides certain benefits/abilities to all within it, and can also do things like ward out some critters and influence the contained environment.

The other -- the mythallar -- is just a giant battery. More than anything else, it's a localized powergrid for plugging in quasimagical items and anchoring spells like Proctiv's Move Mountain. The mythallar does little more than that.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  05:53:57  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
They had a mythal, Wooly, albeit not like the elves'. It's powered by a huge crystal and several potent spells interwoven to it. Here's an excerpt from Dawn of Night:

quote:

It was the Neth­erese who first crafted the magical mantle that blanketed the *caverns, an attempt by the human arcanists to se­cure the safety of their new city and to mimic the highest achievement of elven high magic, the mythal.


*Such refer to Skullport.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 25 May 2011 05:54:40
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe

USA
489 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  06:16:43  Show Profile  Visit Joran Nobleheart's Homepage Send Joran Nobleheart a Private Message
Thank you, Lady THO! I'll look much more into it tomorrow. It's greatly appreciated!

Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31683 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  06:31:45  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Mythals can move through (space-time), as indicated by the mountain sheared Enclaves.
And there's the possibility, too, that the time-travelling Myth Adofaer/Adofhaor temporally time-shifted with its mythal intact.

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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  06:44:45  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The Netherese enclaves did not have mythals. They had mythallars. Despite the unfortunate similarity in the names, the two constructs are not the same. One is a field of magic that surrounds a fixed area and provides certain benefits/abilities to all within it, and can also do things like ward out some critters and influence the contained environment.

The other -- the mythallar -- is just a giant battery. More than anything else, it's a localized powergrid for plugging in quasimagical items and anchoring spells like Proctiv's Move Mountain. The mythallar does little more than that.



Well, you are a far grander sage of Realmslore than I Wooley, so I'll take your word for it. I don't want to clutter Ed's scroll... But in the scroll http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15275 Ed replies via THO on the issue of the old Sargauth Enclave's mythal. And in City of Splendours:Waterdeep, it says "At the exact moment that the Weave Faltered in the Year of Sundered Webs, the Netherese Arcanists of the Sargauth Enclave were experimenting with the great mythal that encompassed their subteraneancity." pgs 109-110.

Sorry if I was a little confused, thank you for your input!

Brace Cormaeril
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Merrith
Learned Scribe

133 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  07:17:14  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The Netherese enclaves did not have mythals. They had mythallars. Despite the unfortunate similarity in the names, the two constructs are not the same. One is a field of magic that surrounds a fixed area and provides certain benefits/abilities to all within it, and can also do things like ward out some critters and influence the contained environment.

The other -- the mythallar -- is just a giant battery. More than anything else, it's a localized powergrid for plugging in quasimagical items and anchoring spells like Proctiv's Move Mountain. The mythallar does little more than that.



Well, you are a far grander sage of Realmslore than I Wooley, so I'll take your word for it. I don't want to clutter Ed's scroll... But in the scroll http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15275 Ed replies via THO on the issue of the old Sargauth Enclave's mythal. And in City of Splendours:Waterdeep, it says "At the exact moment that the Weave Faltered in the Year of Sundered Webs, the Netherese Arcanists of the Sargauth Enclave were experimenting with the great mythal that encompassed their subteraneancity." pgs 109-110.

Sorry if I was a little confused, thank you for your input!



The mythal in question could be the Melairshield created by the elves of Aelinthaldaar (elven settlement that was built in ancient times on the site of present day Waterdeep). This shield was essentially in response to the delving of the Melairbode dwarves to prevent the Waterdhavian plateau from collapsing no matter how much digging and excavating went on underneath it.

The Waterdeep: City of Splendors sourcebook also claims the Netherse arcanists of the Sargauth enclave created a "mantle" very much like a mythal, or at the very least were experimenting in that direction based on the mythal of the Melairshield.

Could be totally off but just other possible explanations.

Edited by - Merrith on 25 May 2011 07:28:03
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  08:06:36  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
"In the time leading up to Netheril's fall, the wizards of the
Sargauth Enclave were experimenting on and analyzing the
mantle magic of the elves, and they had created a great mantle
that encompassed their entire enclave that was similar to a
mythalar -an elven magical field of great strength that was beyond
their ken. The city mantle provided lighting and minor
magical protections to its citizens, but primarily it replaced
many of the magical supports to the cavernous ceiling."

Skullport pg.6

This source, taken with City of Splendours:Waterdeep, seems to use mythal and mantle-magic synonymously! Man, this is confusing!

Ed uses mythal and mythallar synonymously in the text below, too!

quote:
Mythals cannot be translocated (teleported, dimension doored, all similar dimensional as opposed to physical-flight-path "movement" magic) intact. Mythals must have anchors, which ties them to a locale, and have integral spatial locators (clumsy real-world analogy: GPS coordinates).
Weak attempts to translocate mythals will fail. (Many will reflect all translocation magics cast at them, or within them but not at specific creatures or touched items, back at the caster.)
Strong attempts to translocate mythals violently destroy them (and everything in the vicinity), and such strong attempts have to be made from within the mythallar, by casters who ALREADY UNDERSTAND its structure (component spells and their linkages), or they merely fail. Otherwise, every mythal could be easily destroyed by hostile spellcasters casting teleports on it. And if mythals could be teleported intact, they would have been used as weapons many times in the past (which they have not been): simply surround your foe with a mythal that by its conditions weakens the foe and strengthens your own weapons against that foe.


Brace Cormaeril

Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 25 May 2011 20:15:18
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1393 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2011 :  13:02:11  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message
Netheril's mythallar also fed the quasi-magical items, that worked only inside its range. So, there is a similarity between mythallars and mythals? I hope to see Ed's answer, considering that the Netheril portrayed in the old 2e box didn't follow his original design.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  04:48:18  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

How did Thultanthar's mythal escape sundering when it fled Faerun to Shadow?




I don't recall any source saying Thultanthar has a mythal. What it has is a mythallar.

----

I believe Ed already explained the difference between mythal and mythallar. I remember Sage quoted it once in one of the threads I started...sometime ago.

Every beginning has an end.
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gomez
Learned Scribe

Netherlands
254 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  12:16:29  Show Profile  Visit gomez's Homepage Send gomez a Private Message
Mythallar and mythals are different, but I understand from above excerpts that at least one enclave made an attempt at both?
We are currently working on an project that deals with Netherese mythallars.
It makes a few assumptions:
- that Shade's mythallar was damaged and does not operate at full capacity,
- that Spellard has a mythallar, and
- that a mythallar's magic can be transferred to a proper receptacle

These are just guesses and deductions based on older material, but I hope we are (essentially) correct.
Can Ed confirm these deductions, or are they NDA?

Gomez
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5036 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  19:17:07  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hi again, all.
Okay, time for some clarity:
Skullport has a mythal. Ed should know; he created the place and first detailed it.
(It may also have a mythallar, but note: if the two are contiguous or overlap at all, they CANNOT be independent, because the field of the one latches onto the anchor points of the other. It's like trying to pour a stream of water out of a watering can into a fast-running stream, and somehow keep the two water flows separate; can't be done.
Saer Cormaeril, read those quotes you just cited more carefully, please.
The first one even gives the definition of "mythalar" that the Netherese of Sargauth were using at the time (powerful elven magical field that they can't duplicate or fully understand). The Sargauthans were experimenting with elven mantle spells (mantle: personal, mobile shielding spell, like a layered defensive "aura," that has various properties and that can fail in parts/layers, not always all at once) to create what they were in effect calling a 'super mantle' because they hadn't yet come up with a term for it.

In the second quote (Ed speaking), Ed speaks of a mythal, and a mythallar, by "mythal" referring to the large magical field, and by "mythallar" referring to the network of magical linkages (the internal structure or network/framework within the mythal). Which was his original meaning and published usage of the word, even if later writers have used it differently.

In NEITHER case are "mythal" and "mythallar" used synonymously. Confusing, yes, but the claim you're making here is untrue.
Wooly is correct when he defines what the terms have come to mean, but we mustbe careful when citing published sources to take note of the time those sources were released (rules edition, etc.) and the viewpoint of the quotation (see the Sargauth quote mentioned herein).
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13092 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  19:18:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message
Both stem from personal 'Mantle' magics, but are the end results of different paths taken with that as a basis.

One is designed to protect, while the other is designed to empower. That is a good representation of the different mindsets of the peoples involved.

And while Mythalar are based on the Netherease studying Elven Mythals, I feel the Mythals themselves are based on older, Fey magics (in the Fey language I was working on, 'Myth' meant "place of power", rather then 'city', as it does in Elvish - the word evolved over time). Elven High Magic was closer to Divine Magic in nature, so the Netherease had to figure-out new ways to do the same things using Arcane magic. Then, later on, the Elves studied the Netherease Mythalar and devised their own Arcane Mythal variant. This is how technology works, even magical tech - constant tinkering and improvements are made over time.

Mostly conjecture, mind you.

EDIT: I composed this before THO's answer, but we appear to be basically saying the same thing.

Question: I asked a similar question awhile back, so let me try to narrow the focus - did Ed separate the concepts of Fey and Elf as it is in D&D now, or did he have a more traditional take, wherein both groups were really one and the same?

In other words, before Tolkien, 'Elves' were wee-folk, and Faeries were tall and beautiful. What sort of relationship did they all have in Ed's Realms?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2011 19:26:15
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  21:56:17  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
I'm not trying to make any claims, just asking questions.

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
In the second quote (Ed speaking), Ed speaks of a mythal, and a mythallar, by "mythal" referring to the large magical field, and by "mythallar" referring to the network of magical linkages (the internal structure or network/framework within the mythal). Which was his original meaning and published usage of the word, even if later writers have used it differently.



So, when Ioulam created created the first mythallar, did he create the internal structure or network/framework which compromises a mythal?

I had a lot of other questions, too, but I deleted them. Hoping for some clarification/elucidation on this question above, though!

Thanks again, THO!

Brace Cormaeril
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  23:10:00  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message
Well again all

Its odd question time again after an adventure plot popped into my head earlier today.

I was wondering if there are any were-beavers in the Realms? and if so whether Ed could share some lore about them? (names/plans/dreams/relationships with other shape-changers etc)

I have an idea of an extended family clan of were-beavers working on the fringes of the Hullack Forest (logging and living) and the players blundering in after the 'evil shape-changers' etc

Cheers

Damian

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2011 :  00:04:13  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message
Oh, and a follow-up.

Going with Wooley's definition and Ed's input THO recently provided, for one to translocate a mythal, one would have to do so from within a magic battery for quasimagical objects?

Edit: my smart phone does not like "translocate", and so changed it to "translate"

Brace Cormaeril

Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 27 May 2011 03:03:49
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