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Asharak
Learned Scribe

France
165 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2010 :  18:44:55  Show Profile  Visit Asharak's Homepage Send Asharak a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
–371 Year of Bruins: Although he has already survived for centuries, Ioulaum embraces lichdom and establishes a heavily fortified lair in the Northdark.

–489 DR to –371 DR
Seven Sigils War: Rdiuz, a Netherese domain situated along the Gods’ Legion Mountains, builds the mighty floating citadel of Meigg and marches its troops through Cat’s Gate to conquer settlements within the Outlands. Planar beings, more powerful than the archwizards, send their armies through the portal into Netheril, leading to a century of conflict.


Perhaps there's connections between Ioulaum lichdom and the end of Seven Sigils War, what do you think or know about this?

"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"

Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue.

Edited by - Asharak on 26 Dec 2010 19:36:20

Quale
Master of Realmslore

1756 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  11:22:12  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always thought they warred with the rilmani (and seven Sigil-like cities), but it's possible, you can pick any other Outlands power, the minions of Ilsensine fit with Ioulaum's obsession with illithids.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31044 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  15:14:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno... Knowing that two events happened in the same 365-day span isn't enough for me to assume a connection.

My wife got pregnant this year, and I got a Lego Advent Calendar -- I know for a fact those two events aren't related, but they did both happen in 2010.

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
542 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  11:02:20  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I know for a fact those two events aren't related,

Who knows...who knows

But congratulations to you :)
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  08:36:29  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage  Send Shemmy an AOL message  Send Shemmy an ICQ Message Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always assumed it was the Rilmani as well. With an aurumach pretty much going 'oh hell no', proceeding to push the Netherese out from the Outlands in short fashion, and to then use the conflict back on Toril more to tinker with the Netherese than anything else. As for the name of the conflict, I assume the 'Sigils' part doesn't imply anything about the city of Sigil itself or multiple versions (no planar sources covering the time period in question mention anything of the sort, or even the war).

It's one of those little things that would be cool to have pop up again, but it's not likely within the current regime of things. Were I doing anything related, I'd enjoy picking up on the topic, but I'm off in another planar sandbox.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1756 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  11:36:08  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that Ioulaum could have found other ways to prolong his life, the lichdom wasn't about that, but a part of his plans to acquire illithid knowledge. The undead possess an immunity to many mind-influencing effects and the Far Realms madness.

quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy

As for the name of the conflict, I assume the 'Sigils' part doesn't imply anything about the city of Sigil itself or multiple versions (no planar sources covering the time period in question mention anything of the sort, or even the war).



I imagined the kamerel building a mirror-copy of Sigil (or an improved one with the Expansionist help), but with only seven parts finished before the rilmani appeared.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31044 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  14:24:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  14:41:10  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect.

To put a little extra spin on this... I'd suggest that the seven mages were each a custodian of a single sigil -- and the gate only opened when all seven sigils came together.

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Edited by - The Sage on 29 Dec 2010 14:42:12
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Asharak
Learned Scribe

France
165 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  15:26:15  Show Profile  Visit Asharak's Homepage Send Asharak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect.



Or perhaps Seven Lost Gods...

"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"

Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue.
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1091 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  17:35:45  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey folks. Just though I’d add some extra insight for those interested.

The Seven Sigils War was first described in the novel Finder’s Bane on page 198. A hundred year war between the Netheril and the Outer Planes is epic stuff indeed, and I made special effort to ensure the event was included in the Grand History.

Additionally, the Seven Sigils War is used as the historical backdrop for the adventure Monument of the Ancients in Dungeon 170. Within you learn that the Netherese summoned elementals to counter the immortal invasion from the Outlands, unwittingly releasing the primordial “Lost God” Maram of the Great Spear upon Faerûn.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  17:44:25  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asharak

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

With a name like Seven Sigils War, I'd assume that the Seven Sigils were either a group on one side or the other (perhaps 7 Netherese dudes got together and got expansionist), or that the Seven Sigils referred to some bit of magic that was integral to the war -- perhaps seven particular spells that opened the gate, or that were cast by one side or the other to particularly devestating effect.



Or perhaps Seven Lost Gods...



quote:
Additionally, the Seven Sigils War is used as the historical backdrop for the adventure Monument of the Ancients in Dungeon 170. Within you learn that the Netherese summoned elementals to counter the immortal invasion from the Outlands, unwittingly releasing the primordial #65533;Lost God#65533; Maram of the Great Spear upon Faerûn.


So what about the other Six, because I have a hunch they were somehow involved too...

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  03:14:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't their an 'Arcane Age' novel (or series) that covers that altercation?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6599 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  03:38:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, given what Brian (and Asharak) said -

Seven Lost Gods
  • Maram of the Great Spear

  • Haask, Voice of Hargut

  • Tyranthraxus the Flamed One

  • Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud

  • Camnod the Unseen

  • Dendar the Night Serpent (?)

  • Kezef the Chaos Hound (?)


  • Some of these bad boys are primordials, elder evils, servants of Bane, etc; they may have been around during the Nether ages.

    [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Dec 2010 03:39:41
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    Asharak
    Learned Scribe

    France
    165 Posts

    Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  11:26:38  Show Profile  Visit Asharak's Homepage Send Asharak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    Well, given what Brian (and Asharak) said -

    Seven Lost Gods
  • Maram of the Great Spear

  • Haask, Voice of Hargut

  • Tyranthraxus the Flamed One

  • Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud

  • Camnod the Unseen

  • Dendar the Night Serpent (?)

  • Kezef the Chaos Hound (?)


  • Some of these bad boys are primordials, elder evils, servants of Bane, etc; they may have been around during the Nether ages.



    tsr 9238 Ruins Of Adventure says: "unblessed creatures imbued with the might of a magical pool. Chief among these were the great generals of the evil horde, Tyranthraxus, Edranka, and Torath. With their powers they ruled and united all else, driving forward to destroy us all." ...

    "Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"

    Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue.

    Edited by - Asharak on 30 Dec 2010 11:28:35
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    6599 Posts

    Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  16:34:18  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Rather than go off-topic, I'll direct this "Lost Gods" stuff to the Tyranthraxus and the Twisted Ones scroll.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Asharak
    Learned Scribe

    France
    165 Posts

    Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  18:04:28  Show Profile  Visit Asharak's Homepage Send Asharak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Well, when Ioulaum embrace lichdom, he's 2944 years old...

    The official reason is : "since life-supporting magic and potions ceased functioning as the phaerimm’s life drain and magic drain spells permeated Netheril" (Netheril: Empire of Magic)

    I always found this unsatisfactory.

    For me, the Seven Sigils Wars offer a more interesting context...

    Edit: thanks for the link

    "Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"

    Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue.

    Edited by - Asharak on 30 Dec 2010 18:07:27
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    Razz
    Senior Scribe

    USA
    716 Posts

    Posted - 07 Jan 2011 :  03:29:58  Show Profile  Visit Razz's Homepage  Send Razz an AOL message Send Razz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    It still begs the question ---

    What planar beings were they fighting for that long and it never went recorded!?
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    Quale
    Master of Realmslore

    1756 Posts

    Posted - 14 Jan 2011 :  17:21:10  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    if the rilmani were involved, it's likely that the records were destroyed
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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
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    USA
    31044 Posts

    Posted - 14 Jan 2011 :  18:26:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Razz

    It still begs the question ---

    What planar beings were they fighting for that long and it never went recorded!?



    It may have been recorded... But the Netherese didn't want anyone knowing they'd been defeated, so they got rid of all the records.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

    Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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    The Sage
    Procrastinator Most High
    Moderator

    Australia
    31691 Posts

    Posted - 14 Jan 2011 :  23:37:07  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Quale

    if the rilmani were involved, it's likely that the records were destroyed

    Why? The rilmani seek to protect the middle ground. They don't simply act as though something is "this" versus "that." It's all about the balance.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Quale
    Master of Realmslore

    1756 Posts

    Posted - 16 Jan 2011 :  12:33:24  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    cause the rilmani don't have strength in numbers, their style is covert war, I imagine that a hundred years conflict would be straining for them otherwise, and it proves the Netherese were competent to the point of uncovering and revealing their weaknesses

    they protect the balance in various ways, sometimes the losing side needs just a nudge, sometimes it gets extreme, the difference is that the Netherese invaded their lands, usually it's the rilmani who infiltrate

    maybe the illithids are a better choice for that kind of war, I don't know what primordials have to do with the Outlands
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    The Sage
    Procrastinator Most High
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    Australia
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    Posted - 16 Jan 2011 :  14:46:03  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Quale

    cause the rilmani don't have strength in numbers, their style is covert war, I imagine that a hundred years conflict would be straining for them otherwise ...
    Eh. I don't see it.

    It's largely assumed that the rilmani have taken steps to ensure the Blood War continually rages -- so that neither Baatezu or Tanar'ri gain an upper hand.

    And if they can involve themselves in a conflict as far-reaching and ancient as the Blood War, then a singular war fought across a few planes and one Prime Material world, shouldn't been too much of a strain for them.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    "So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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    Edited by - The Sage on 16 Jan 2011 14:49:01
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    Quale
    Master of Realmslore

    1756 Posts

    Posted - 17 Jan 2011 :  14:16:35  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Well the rilmani have a talent to strategically place their agents. What are their numbers in your world?
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    The Sage
    Procrastinator Most High
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    Posted - 17 Jan 2011 :  14:29:57  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Quale

    Well the rilmani have a talent to strategically place their agents. What are their numbers in your world?

    I don't really play with definitive numbers when it comes to aspects like this in-game. But, I suppose, I'd have to say... as many as the plot may need.

    Though, it's worth noting that I've made some changes to the rilmani in my campaigns anyway. Nothing population-related, but changes all the same.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

    Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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    Quale
    Master of Realmslore

    1756 Posts

    Posted - 20 Jan 2011 :  19:19:21  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I've only changed how they look like, more biopunk-ish, their picture in Fiend Folio is awful
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    Matt James
    Forgotten Realms Game Designer

    USA
    909 Posts

    Posted - 22 Aug 2012 :  13:42:21  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    This is an odd-bump, but I am working on some things that deal with with this topic. Research, interestingly enough, brought me home, here, to Candlekeep :)
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