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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 01:50:03
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So, I'm rereading some of my old classic Realms novels, and the beginning of Tantras reminded me of how poorly it handled so many classic Shadowdale characters, especially Storm Silverhand but also to a lesser extent Mourngrym.
I'm sure this caused wailing and tears back in the day. ;) But I'm wondering if it was every explained 'in world' why they acted so against character in a short story or novel. I THOUGHT the purpose of the 'Shadow of the Avatar' trilogy was to explain that, but instead... well, let's just say I found that series a disappointment.
Any help on this very old question would be appreciated. :)
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 02:23:25
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It has been a while since I've read Tantras. Are you refering to the chapter where Storm accuse Midnight & cie of killing Elminster? If so, then it might not be so out of character as it may seem. Who knows how a 600+ years old person might react if the man he has been closer to is killed/missing? Sure, Storm has lost countless loved ones over the centuries, but we are talking about her mentor, the guy who raised him, and possibly her closest friend.
On the other hand, I had similar comments against the Return of the Archwizards trilogy regarding a few major characters, or in the War of the Spider Queen. So the short and easy answer is simply, different authors have different views of any given character. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 08:03:02
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Phew... the Avatar Trilogy. Not the best series of novels written for FR. There was never really any in-game (or in-finction) explanation for the odd behaviour of Storm Silverhand et al. in that series. I was not a big fan of it (disclaimer: I played the modules first; I did not read the novels until years after).
However... you have to keep in mind the context. Take a look at Realms lore as it was then published (the Old Gray Box and the initial supplements FR1 to FR6), and, in particular, about Storm Silverhand and Elminster.
At that time, all the general population knew of Storm was a one-column NPC write-up in the OGB; there was more about Elminster, who had gotten a full article in Dragon Magazine, and who had been Ed Greenwood's framework storyteller for many of his articles in Dragon Magazine. Both were featured in Spellfire, and Elminster had a bit role in Azure Bonds.
At the time, there was no word of "the Chosen" in published lore; Storm was "just" a bard, one of several sisters (never mention that they were seven; the OGB had Storm, Dove, mentions of Sylune, and Alustriel; the Simbul was mentioned, but I do not recall any hints of her being a sister of all of the above; there was a reference to "the Nine", with Laeral listed as a member, but no hint that she was one of the Seven Sisters; Qilué was only mentioned only much, much later).
There was an indication that this was a bit of a special family, but nothing massively out of the ordinary.
Elminster was described as a high-level, ancient archmage, but that was easily explained within the then-existing rules framework (potions of longevity, elixirs of health, and other life-prolonging magic).
Within that context, Storm and Elminster were still very much relatively blank characters, which individual DMs (and authors) could (had to, really) develop with relatively little official restrictions.
So, yes, Storm version "Tantras" is different from Storm version "Seven Sisters". But let's not forget that between those versions, there are twenty years of published lore. The very idea that Storm and her sisters were almost 600 years old was not considered in the OGB. The notion of the Chosen - the exceptional powers conveyed by Mystra - was not mentioned.
At the time, I found Storm's behaviour annoying - I did not really like the Avatar adventures as written - they were classic examples of railroading adventures, but I ran them anyway, because at the time, there were not many other FR adventures; I've re-run them a couple of times since, but always heavily, heavily edited, and with Storm, Mourngrym et al. behaving somewhat differently. Still, on the basis of what I knew of the characters then (which was next to nothing, see above), the behaviour of the Shadowdale lot was not all that out of place. They had just been under attack from Zhentil Keep (once again). They are in an extremely vulnerable position: the presence of magic-users like Elminster and Syluné has been a deterrent to Zhentil Keep (not too much of a deterrent, as ZK attacked on a regular basis...), Elminster the Sage had just vanished, after being last seen in the presence of a bunch of strangers who just rolled into town the day before (and keep in mind that ZK, the Red wizards, the Cult of the Dragon, Hillsfar, Sembia, Cormyr, and the little gray men try to infiltrate Shadowdale constantly). Magic had already gone haywire, priests had lost most of their powers, and gods walked the land. In those circumstances, I'd be pretty annoyed and inclined to shoot first and ask questions later. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 17:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
So, I'm rereading some of my old classic Realms novels, and the beginning of Tantras reminded me of how poorly it handled so many classic Shadowdale characters, especially Storm Silverhand but also to a lesser extent Mourngrym.
I'm sure this caused wailing and tears back in the day. (..snip..)
You're absolutely right. Back in the day, the Time of Troubles was just as contentious an issue as the 4E Spellplague. For some people, it was "the" big reason to finally diverge from the canon Realms and use a modified Realms/homebrew. Not just because of the unusual behavior of the Shadowdale characters, but also because of the way the gods themselves acted.
That said, it was a fascinating concept. If the series had been executed a lot better, it could've been amazing. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2010 : 17:56:55
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| Just play the modules. Those are fun. One of my players decapitated Myrkul. Huzzah!!! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 18:38:59
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Not all writers potray the same character the same way. I suppose if you want to get down to it, you could say that the strange and horrible circumstances in which the characters had found themselves could account for some of the ways they were acting. I can't imagine that either Elminster or Storm would be in a good mood if the goddess of all magic was supposedly dead, dead zones were opening up all over Faerun, and to top it all off, Bane has his sights set on your town.
I would personally brush any conflicts under the rug if they don't fit.
As per the book itself--I found it an interesting read and I would suggest it to any Realms fan simply for the sake of illuminating them on one of the largest impacts on the realms...but as a series in and of itself, it shows numerous flaws. The first thing that jumps out at me is the lack of humor in the book. That's not bad per say--but comic relief would have really gone a long way to making it better.
The true flaw however, comes from the fact that I was always rooting for the wrong team or not caring about the heroes. I didn't read about Kelemvor--I wanted to read about Bane and his adjustments to the mortal world. The scenes where he's shocked at how somone would risk their life for him and could be so loyal to him when there's no obvious reward was interesting. As was the scene where said servant died and Bane was wracked with grief. This made Bane a very interesting character that was evolving from his more simpler roots.
Then we have Cyric. Cyric I found to be much more appealing than either of the rest of the characters. We see the way his tragic history and desire to be free from any control drove him to wanting godhood. We see a very nice and clear character arch. Once Bane was out of the picture, he was the only character I really cared all that much about. Adon was the close second in that his character had changed--but it was done with the most absurd reasoning. What, so he gets a scar he decides to lose faith in Sune? That would make sense in most any cases, but he knows that Sune is trapped in an avatar like his fellow gods. He saw how vulnerable they were when Mystra was forced to take an avatar and was slain when she attempted to enter the Planes. His reasoning is just...incredibly stupid and self-centered. Him turning against Sune for that reason is even more baffiling.
The other two...are just dreadful characters. They're boring. Yes, Kelemvor had that thing with the panther...but that was removed in the middle of the second book and pretty much ends any further character change until Trial of Cyric the Mad, where he grows to be a more interesting character by his actions. And Midnight was on edge since Tantras--by the third book I really didn't care all that much about her.
It was so bad that even in Prince of Lies I was secretly rooting for Cyric. I just identify with his character more. And that's rather scary considering he'd become rather unstsable in Tantras.
All in all though...fairly good action scenes. And even Kelemvor and Midnight are decent through the stories--they're just not nearly as interesting as the other characters in the story and their personalities are just blank. They have interesting archs, there's just not much there to enjoy. I'm not sure if I'm describing this right...but to hell with it. I'd recommend this book if they were interested in the Realms of fantasy in general or maybe if they're looking for a new book. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2011 : 04:10:21
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Thanks for this thread.
I've been reading a lot of the pre-Avatar books (or books set pre-Avatar) and Storm was written quite poorly in Tantras as well as Mourngrym. It doesn't seem like Storm at all and it seriously bothered me to the point of I had to put it down and read other books for a few months.
Now that the gang is out of Shadowdale it makes more sense. Lhaeo was in character and acted quite normally, and he was pretty much a canvas at that point too. I wish Ed had stepped in, as Richard Awlison (sp) was just a pen name for the gang of people who collaborated to write the books, right?
Adon's breakdown has never sat well with me, I really wanted to root for him but he is poorly written in the books. Cyric is by far the most complex (even if I dislike him) character. I agree with the above writer that the scenes with Bane trying to understand loyalty and mortal emotions were wonderfully well done. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 18:26:51
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Yeah, Scott Ciencin was the actual author of Shadowdale and Tantras, whereas Troy Denning was the author of Waterdeep (and that is where the writing improved, IMO). However, Troy Denning was also the author of the other 'transition' trilogy (Return of the Archwizards), and while I did not mind his portrayal of some of the chosen in that series, I know other scribes had problems with it.
On a side note: Is the R. A. Salvatore Transisions trilogy considered the 'transition' trilogy into the 4E Realms? I have not read the Ghost King yet, but my brother says that it actually transitions from the then present Realms (1375ish DR) to the future realms (1494 DR). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 18:54:45
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It's been years, but I still haven't figured out what I like about this series. Perhaps there really isn't. The portrayal of the avatars ruined everything for me. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 05:57:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
On a side note: Is the R. A. Salvatore Transisions trilogy considered the 'transition' trilogy into the 4E Realms? I have not read the Ghost King yet, but my brother says that it actually transitions from the then present Realms (1375ish DR) to the future realms (1494 DR).
-The prologue and epilogues of those books take place in the post-Spellplague Forgotten Realms. I never really took the name of the trilogy to be 'THE' transitory trilogy into the future Forgotten Realms, as opposed to Drizzt's, but I guess it is. I always saw the Empyrian Odyssey trilogy as 'THE' transitory trilogy, personally. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 18:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
I always saw the Empyrian Odyssey trilogy as 'THE' transitory trilogy, personally.
Hmm. I might need to look into that trilogy as well then. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 18:50:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
I always saw the Empyrian Odyssey trilogy as 'THE' transitory trilogy, personally.
Hmm. I might need to look into that trilogy as well then.
I enjoyed the first book, but never picked up the rest. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 01:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Hawkins
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
I always saw the Empyrian Odyssey trilogy as 'THE' transitory trilogy, personally.
Hmm. I might need to look into that trilogy as well then.
I enjoyed the first book, but never picked up the rest.
The trilogy is still sitting in my "To-Read" stack. But I'll doubt it'll remain there for much longer. I love Reid's fiction, and, couple that with the subject matter of the books -- namely, the planes, and I'm rejuvenating my interest in working my way through the trilogy again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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zenmichael
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 22:11:22
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If I'm understanding it correctly, the 4E transition was dealt with in a bit of a scattershot approach in the novels. Like if you look at the "top 10 things that're different now" list in the 4E Realms books, a lot of them are dealt with in different trilogies. So ....
Thay is now full of undead nasties! That's the Haunted Lands trilogy.
Netheril now rules over Sembia. The Shadow War trilogy.
The Planes are just all sorts of different (& possibly the Shar/Mystra stuff?) is dealt with in Empyrean Odyssey.
Also I'm assuming Abolethic Sovereignty & Transitions covers ... something? Haven't read any of these yet, but I would GUESS Transitions maybe covers the Underdark collapse at some point? And I don't remember if the Aboleths get a mention in that 'top 10' list or not ...
I just figured this out recently so I probably don't have it complete; feel free to add on or correct me here. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 04:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by zenmichael
Also I'm assuming Abolethic Sovereignty...
-The series doesn't highlight any specific changes as much as they highlight how the city of Xxiphu came to "rise", and what happened to certain characters/places of his previous book(s). Flashback scenes occur during the Spellplague, but of nothing particularly consequential. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 12:03:17
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That's what I find a bit disconcerting. The Aboleths are a formidable race. I thought their return would herald a new RSE, as did their enemies, the phaerimm. Not that the phaerimm had ever been gone. But when the time came for them to be in the limelight (RotA), the Realms were plunged in chaos. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 03:56:45
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I only read the first. Though I already bought the entire series. It's still in my To-Read stacks.
Having successfully summoned the city, they, under the leadership of their Elder, should have caused more destruction in Faerun. RotA also focused (partly) on the summoning of the city of Shade (The Siege, Book 1). But it didn't stop there. Not that Bruce's trilogy had to follow the pattern of Troy's. But considering that it's about primarily the rise of the Aboleths, who are considered the phaerimm's equal, I don't see why they should not wreck more havoc than they actually did in the said series. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 05:39:09
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| -If you haven't read book two and three, I would only read book two. Not to give away too much, but the main plot basically ends in book two. Book three is, seemingly, wholly unnecessary, other than to tie up loose ends. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 06:13:04
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At the very least, since I already bought it, I would sample the third. The first four chapters---that's my usual requirement for sampling. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Old FR: Avatar Trilogy Questions
