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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 13:00:59
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I'll continue procrastinating on actually writing by asking everyone on their opinion of low level main characters.
I was trying to think of FR novels I've read that involve low level characters and it was a short list. Smedman's serpent trilogy came to mind, at least for the first book. I guess 10 year old Catti Brie couldn't have been too high level. Of course, I haven't read them all by a long shot and maybe there is some selection bias on my part.
So, what do people think of novels set at levels 1-5? Too boring without the high level spells and spectacular martial feats? How many of you tend to skip the low levels in your gaming?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 13:57:40
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Probably the archtypical Realms novel about low-level characters is Spellfire, and to a somewhat lesser extent its sequel, Crown of Fire. Shandril is a 1st level thief, and most of the rest of the group she signs up with are 1st or 2nd level, with the probable exception of Delg. Her husband, Narm, is an apprentice wizard, and I don't think gets much beyond 5th level, and that's by the end of the second book.
It works well, especially when Shandril's group gets slaughtered. Of course, she and Narm then fall into company with more experienced adventurers, but they still serve as a good audience gateway, and an appreciation that this is a dangerous world. You don't need spectacular spells or powers to make an interesting story, you need interesting characters, and sometimes making the heroes woefully underpowered compared to their adversaries is a compelling choice. People like to root for the underdog, after all. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 14:16:52
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There are more than you might think of. At least in the beginning some characters where pretty weak.
Some examples of series are:
-Elminster
-Drizzt
-Cadderly
-the avatar series
-the sembia series
All (or most) characters are very powerfull later on but in the beginning are very weak and low level... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 14:29:11
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I like novels/stories which involve low-level (or even zero-level) characters. The characters cannot readily access blasting and "do-anything" magics, they can't confidently charge down an half-dozen orcs, they can't really do much of anything involving spectacularly heroic eye-candy and special fx ... their abilities suck. Of course they still have something that sets them apart from the commoners, they are unusual, they have potential, some kind of spark, etc.
The writing style has to emphasize the characters as people more than the characters as mobile weapon platforms. The antagonist needn't be a Larloch-powered megabad, but can be a lowly nobody greedy magistrate or even challenges caused by such mundane things as inclement terrain and weather. Such stories are (in my mind) best written as narratives (for solitary characters) or interactive "adventures" (for groups of characters). The best of these don't provide the characters with some powerful item, spell, high-level NPC, or other cheater prop to be "used at the right time"; there is simply no escape from working things through "the hard way" at low level.
I like sequential novels wherein low-level characters progressively gain abilities and work up to the final BBEG confrontation, one book and one milestone (minor villain, etc) at a time. Novels about god-level munchkins don't appeal to me, they have to dedicate text towards describing the scale of powers, magics, and villainy as worthy of the character's mega level; so though there are some new writing challenges the stories just can't, in balance, dedicate as much effort toward the character himself; a certain degree of "background" must be assumed from previous books.
Low-level characters can easily be dropped anywhere in the Realms without worry of disrupting the setting or tipping the world over; high-level guys can't move about as freely because gods and villains tend to follow them around like paparazzi. Most D&D playbooks recommend retiring your characters when they hit level 20something, telling their tales again and again just gets boring and there's no longer any way to really challenge them without involving some kind of game-breaking power circus - if player characters should be retired at this level (for entertainment and "balance" reasons), then so too should the ones in the novels.
Having said that, we all know that Drizzt and El are endlessly popular. I just personally feel their tales aren't interesting because the "flaws" in these characters seem more contrived ... a novel about young Elminster the pretentious apprentice or young Drizzt the naively timid cadet would be infinitely more interesting (to me) than reading about them the way they are now. Other "fixtures" like Szass Tam, Larloch, and Mirt must be able to tell fascinating tales of their early days. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Dec 2010 15:44:46 |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 19:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Having said that, we all know that Drizzt and El are endlessly popular. I just personally feel their tales aren't interesting because the "flaws" in these characters seem more contrived ... a novel about young Elminster the pretentious apprentice or young Drizzt the naively timid cadet would be infinitely more interesting (to me) than reading about them the way they are now. Other "fixtures" like Szass Tam, Larloch, and Mirt must be able to tell fascinating tales of their early days.
Elminster: Making of a Mage and Homeland are exactly that (for El and Drizzt, respectively), my friend.
As for low level protagonists, RAS's Cleric Quintet is a great series, and Cadderly starts out as (IIRC) a young cleric barely capable of casting spells. Of course, this changes eventually, but he's low-leveled for the majority of the first three novels, as are his companions. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 19:15:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Having said that, we all know that Drizzt and El are endlessly popular. I just personally feel their tales aren't interesting because the "flaws" in these characters seem more contrived ... a novel about young Elminster the pretentious apprentice or young Drizzt the naively timid cadet would be infinitely more interesting (to me) than reading about them the way they are now. Other "fixtures" like Szass Tam, Larloch, and Mirt must be able to tell fascinating tales of their early days.
Elminster: Making of a Mage and Homeland are exactly that (for El and Drizzt, respectively), my friend.
As for low level protagonists, RAS's Cleric Quintet is a great series, and Cadderly starts out as (IIRC) a young cleric barely capable of casting spells. Of course, this changes eventually, but he's low-leveled for the majority of the first three novels, as are his companions. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 19:29:14
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quote:
Sandro
Elminster: Making of a Mage and Homeland ...
You gotta be kidding? I'll try to get my hands on those books (well, at least on the former one).
Ah, if only there were a story about young Manshoon ...
I think that was much of the appeal in classic Dragonlance: a group of low-level heroes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2010 : 20:21:37
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Yeah both Homeland and Elminster: The Making of a Mage are amongst my very favourite books of all time for that particular reason. There is something that just sucks me right in with the stories that deals with how the antagonist (or protagonist for that matter) becomes what he is. The journey itself is often the most exciting. For me anyway.
EDIT: I'd like to add Elfshadow and Finders Bane to list of books that deals with low level characters emerging from relative anonymity, to becoming heroes in their own right. |
Edited by - Elfinblade on 02 Dec 2010 20:23:56 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Having said that, we all know that Drizzt and El are endlessly popular. I just personally feel their tales aren't interesting because the "flaws" in these characters seem more contrived ... a novel about young Elminster the pretentious apprentice or young Drizzt the naively timid cadet would be infinitely more interesting (to me) than reading about them the way they are now. Other "fixtures" like Szass Tam, Larloch, and Mirt must be able to tell fascinating tales of their early days.
Elminster: Making of a Mage and Homeland are exactly that (for El and Drizzt, respectively), my friend.
As for low level protagonists, RAS's Cleric Quintet is a great series, and Cadderly starts out as (IIRC) a young cleric barely capable of casting spells. Of course, this changes eventually, but he's low-leveled for the majority of the first three novels, as are his companions.
The young Elminster was more reckless than pretentious. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 01:25:59
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How would I know? I didn't even know the book existed when I wrote that.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:07:13
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| Making of a Mage hath been added to my next shopping trip, which will be on Friday afternoon actually. Although I already had other plans for reading order, this one has conceptually grabbed me so it's gonna jump the line. I should be ready to comment somewhen on Saturday. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 03:31:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Making of a Mage hath been added to my next shopping trip, which will be on Friday afternoon actually. Although I already had other plans for reading order, this one has conceptually grabbed me so it's gonna jump the line. I should be ready to comment somewhen on Saturday.
I suggest you buy The Annotated Elminster instead. It includes the first three books in the Elminster saga and some very 'informative' and interesting notes by Ed himself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Dec 2010 03:31:57 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 04:16:16
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| Fair enough. I doubt I'll get that one because it blows my budget and I already have some of that material. I also refuse to buy into trilogies/sets (books or movies) until the pieces are all simultaneously available, yeah, I'm a bad boy that way. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 04:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Fair enough. I doubt I'll get that one because it blows my budget and I already have some of that material. I also refuse to buy into trilogies/sets (books or movies) until the pieces are all simultaneously available, yeah, I'm a bad boy that way.
Not really. Sometimes, I'm like that, too. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 04:38:23
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| I also saw ELMISTER IN HELL and THE TEMPTATION OF ELMINSTER in one of our bookstores. So maybe it's safe to assume WotC reprinted all the 5 books in the series. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 06:03:16
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| Succumb to temptation, dennis. You know you want to. Perhaps these novels won't earn a scathing book report. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 06:13:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Succumb to temptation, dennis. You know you want to. Perhaps these novels won't earn a scathing book report.
I ALREADY read them ALL long ago. And true, my reviews of them are HIT. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Dec 2010 06:14:56 |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 01:05:58
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I have to agree with Arik's take on the interesting quality of low-level characters. Powerful ones can certainly be intriguing and fun, but it's less common in my experience. I'd much rather read about resourceful and surprising solutions that sneak right under the big bad guy's expectations using relatively simple means, perhaps with an element of humor and/or sacrifice.
All right, it was rather cathartic and impressive when Mazrim Taim had his students unleash the invisible meat-blender ring around them in the middle of battle (sorry for the non-D&D reference), but only because of the LONG buildup to it and especially all the subtler issues going on behind it and tied into it. The climactic battle of David B. Coe's Winds of the Forelands series was another example of that kind of catharsis and battle-field-blasting impressive quality with a long buildup, artistry, significance, and economy of description, all with strong threads of characters and their lives and development woven through it. I just infinitely prefer rich character interaction, personal development, and gritty intrigues over blowing chunks out of planets DBZ-style, to use a bit of hyperbole for emphasis...
And yes, I enjoyed Homeland the most out of the Dark Elf trilogy, and never could get myself more than halfway through the Icewind Dale trilogy. Obviously plenty of readers do like higher-level, bigger-magic books, lol, but there is a distinct audience for the lower-level ones. |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 05:53:10
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| I absolutely agree, Laerrigan. I usually prefer a more simple and resourceful approach by heroes in storytelling over the "let's just find some uber-powerful way to blast 'em to the Nine Hells" way of defeating baddies. I try to incorporate that kind of feel of the hero truly being the underdog in my own writing. It's why my mutant hero usually wins through out-witting his foes rather than just beating them six ways to Sunday, or my young bard often wins fights through sheer ingenuity over pure brawn. (Playing "Excalibur" while riding rodeo on the back of a cave fisher, anyone?) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 06:43:01
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| It depends on my mood. Often I like the 'blast them all' approach, and sometimes I prefer the 'toning down.' For the former, it is important for me to see several struggles by the hero with little to no magical aid first, before seeing him do the inevitable, like what happened in The Author's Preferred Edition of Feist's Magician. Also, it's very important that the transition from the hero's being nobody to a great somebody is presented smoothly and convincingly. There's nothing worse than seeing a hero instantly transform from a nobody on one page and a force of nature on the next. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 11:21:30
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Magic is a cheap cheat. Just another symptom of our lazy society. People want to be spoonfed, and get the instant cure, and basically live in comfort without expending any effort. Wave your hand around and say the words, aha, something for nothing, no problem at all, it's magic! Bah - gimme a sturdy axe and a sturdier dwarf and put some real sweat into the story. If the magic isn't something you have to really work for then it's just a copout. Epic-level characters don't work for a living, they're just jaded dilettantes looking for some fresh experience.
High level characters, all types, have access to all sorts of magic. Entirely expected, and yet also completely boring. There's no real "accomplishment" or "challenge" in succeeding at something you've already had a successful career doing all your life, so there's little interest in the tale either. Unless you escalate the scope of the plot and setting to match the power of the characters, which just invites all the criticism that a world-altering disaster would cause. Low level victims make much better narrative; a sequence of tales describing their progression into higher levels is better still.
I almost wore out my left hand typing "successful". Almost as terrible as "stewardesses". Er, not that I actually have much opportunity to type the latter. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Dec 2010 16:56:46 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 00:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Magic is a cheap cheat.
Nah, you must have based that notion on some cheap novels, which I myself have encountered sometimes. But to say that it applies to all is just plain baseless. There are a number of authors, specially those that I respect for their sheer ingenuity, who use magic with sophistication, complexity, believability, and viability so effectively. The characters weren't just born with it, they also work hard to be best at it---hence, your "real sweat" argument.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Bah - gimme a sturdy axe and a sturdier dwarf and put some real sweat into the story.
I don't want to read a book that stinks. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 00:58:04
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Well, that is a valid counterpoint, dennis. Another one of my excellently flawed generalizations.
Magic itself is not cheap; it's just cheapened by the way most fantasy fiction abuses it. Almost all fantasy, few exceptions. It's not poor treatment by FR authors (since they largely use the magic exactly as it's established in the setting), it's more of a poor treatment in popular expectations ... "magic" is the catchall panacea used to simplify and move things along when (I would like to see) characters really need to get dirty and spill more blood, sweat, toil and tears to get their jobs done. If heroing was as easy as just babbling and waving your hands around then everybody would be doing it. The Realms (and other D&D settings) are somewhat "locked" into a system of magic which encourages the easy path (so the best D&D books don't really focus on the magic, it's just part of the "background", they instead focus on the characters and events). Authors who create their own settings from scratch sometimes implement magic in ways that I consider very "fair" and original, though many of them (these days) seem be little more than cosmetic overhauls of Vancian/D&D magic styles.
Or maybe I'm just a magic-hater. I'm a tool-user. I like to read about people who do things the "right way" instead of the "easy way". Fair enough. I should just stop reading fantasy fiction, it wasn't meant for me.
We need more books about dwarves. Not dwarven kings. Not dwarven master armourers. Just regular run-of-the-mine dirty-fightin' Klang Kneeslayer the dwarf (and his clan drinking buddies) going about the important business of dependable battleaxe heroism, doing what's needed to keep the mud of the Realms free from scum and villainy one orc at a time. Magic won't stop a dwarf. Giants won't stop a dwarf. Elves and undrinkable toxic grog won't stop a dwarf. So a dwarf should be able to chop his way through lengthy narrative without getting very stinky at all. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 06 Dec 2010 01:04:53 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 01:51:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
...it's more of a poor treatment in popular expectations ... "magic" is the catchall panacea used to simplify and move things along when (I would like to see) characters really need to get dirty and spill more blood, sweat, toil and tears to get their jobs done.
I've seen a fair number of wizards and archwizards doing mundane, “dirty” jobs. But as they say, “Why use a bicycle (and sweat profusely) to get to your destination when there are plenty of cars available?!” It's not a “panacea.” It's just the stuff of fantasy. Maybe you're reading the wrong genre?
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
If heroing was as easy as just babbling and waving your hands around then everybody would be doing it.
With the very few exceptions (like Karsus, who was born with it---the demented archwizard was able to cast his first spell at age two), wizards and archmages toil, study, experiment, and often die in the process before they become who they are. It's not that easy. I tried it myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Or maybe I'm just a magic-hater. I'm a tool-user. I like to read about people who do things the "right way" instead of the "easy way". Fair enough. I should just stop reading fantasy fiction, it wasn't meant for me.
Hah! My thoughts exactly. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:27:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I should just stop reading fantasy fiction, it wasn't meant for me.
Not necessarily. Sounds like your tastes just run toward low-magic fantasy, or at least stories in which the main characters aren't tied in with whatever magic those weird mages or snooty priests do way in the background. The OP was about low-level versus high-level, which applies to sweaty fighters as well as mages. I'd rather read about lower-level anyone, regardless of what tools they use in their exploits, unless the author is just THAT GOOD at handling high-powered characters without losing any of the gritty realism, resourcefulness, character interaction/development, story-crafting, etc. I'm no more interested in reading lengthy descriptions of how a superpowered fighter takes down twenty assailants with an axe than I am in reading lengthy descriptions of how a superpowered mage takes down a hundred assailants with a flashy spell. Honestly, I tend to skim over blow-by-blow accounts of combat. |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 06 Dec 2010 03:32:56 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:28:52
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| Arik, this is all the better reason for you to read Elminster: Making of a /mage, and Homeland, because those books show just how a low-level character can go through lots of blood, sweat, and tears to get the job done. You don't even need a dwarf with an axe to do a job- just a VERY determined hero (of any stripe) willing to get his hands dirty once in a while. And not all mages (ab)use their magic to do EVERYTHING. Some use it only when they absolutely must. These are the wise few who realize that always taking the easy way is the path to corruption. Gandalf, Elminster, Dumbledore... See the connection? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2010 : 03:52:35
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| ....hence my personal gripe against spells like wish being available at all except perhaps in the form of an extremely powerful artifact that's hard to get hold of and can only be used once in a lifetime by a given individual, or some such (see, there's STORY in that, not just choosing to sacrifice XP on the spot and oh look, you have what you so desperately needed all boxed up and gift-wrapped)....I don't even have it in my gaming. It's just not fun, and it's way too un-dramatic. I don't even like teleports, generally. For a long time I played an epic-level wizard in the game I DM, and I threw things at him and his family that really weren't solvable with a few spells. I'd be just as happy if he were low-level again (in fact we recently went back to an earlier point in the the timeline so he's bumped back now), or if magic in general did nothing more dramatic than Gandalf's. It's the interpersonal tensions and resolutions that I find interesting---perception, priorities, and problem-solving---whether they involve the use of swords or magic or neither. Actually, his magic gets used more often these days for conjuring up fresh fruits and veggies for cooking in winter than for clearing battlefields, because I don't go for blatantly-obvious threats.... |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
Edited by - Laerrigan on 06 Dec 2010 03:57:20 |
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Low Level Main Characters
