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 Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? [Spoilers]
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2010 :  01:05:33  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

Jaded with apotheosis, eh?

Elminster is, forgive me for saying this, just an ossified remnant of the old world, he's become troublesome baggage, diminishing in influence and (perhaps) no longer worth the trouble to keep around "as is". Godhood is an obvious method for installing El into a place of eternal prominence without having to constantly devise mechanical excuses; it also allows him to continue "fathering" the Realms without micromanaging, since the gods have very definite limits on their permitted actions.



There are various ways to make a long-standing character interesting without having to make him a god or a panacea. Pug is a living proof of that.

quote:
Originally posted by Arik

I'm curious dennis - how do you feel about the way El is portrayed in the Avatar trilogy? Or the way he is portrayed (being utterly impossible to scry, even by the Tanthuls) in the Twilight War trilogy? Would you feel this sort of treatment is unfair if applied to Roachshoon?



MY problems with Manshoon are too many to enumerate. Greatest of which is his feeble clones. Though 'twas said there's only one clone of him left (the vampire), with roaches, we can never really tell. Where's the fun in it when you can easily dispatch of your enemies? Had I been El blasting the Shoonclones, I'd be bored to death. Also, his personality is as soporific as a cockroach. I have to be a biologist to be interested.

Every beginning has an end.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2010 :  01:12:25  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That only answers half the question.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2010 :  01:29:37  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, well, I don't like how El was portrayed in the Avatar trilogy, though it has less to do with him than the books themselves. Bickering gods succumbing to senseless deaths eclipsed whatever mote of interest I had in the series.

El's invulnerability to scrying is expected. He's protected by the magic of a goddess who conferred him several secrets that could doom even herself. When you possess a gem, it's just reasonable that you guard it well from the covetous stares of your foes. El is not the only one. There's Cale and Riven, and even Vara---protected by whatever meager magic Mask possessed. Heh, even temples important to certain deities are immune from divination.

Now, if the Cockroach happens to be protected by a god, say Bane, will I find him interesting, or at the very least less irksome? I don't know. It may not matter at all. It depends on a lot things. First, I want him to control or to have a bit decency to hide his insanity.

Every beginning has an end.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2010 :  01:45:55  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You apparently have more of a liking for demigod character types than I do. I don't see any story purpose in having Chosens and Exarchs and divine heroes all over the place ... for the most part they're all 99th level characters with millennia of experience, it's expected for them to have devised Halaster- or Larloch-like levels of unstoppable power (and as often as not lose their humanity/sanity in the process) - there's just no need to drag the gods into their lives, to me it seems clumsy and too convenient. What's the point of striving to better yourself and your art if some higher cosmic order can arbitrarily decide to elevate your glory? Karsus had it right, Elminster had it easy.

[Incidentally, let it be henceforth officially known that I do like Elminster and his stories. I'm just critical of his station. I understand how it evolved yet I feel the magical world of D&D might've been better served if El had been taken along a different path.]

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Dec 2010 01:50:46
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2010 :  02:19:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not all demigods or demigod-like characters. In fact, there are more ordinary (in terms of power) characters that I like than the really powerful ones. New on my list is Bastun. A Rashemi wizard whose past is as interesting as his present travails. He's an embodiment of a side of Rashemen that we seldom get a glimpse on.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2010 :  09:25:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

..there's just no need to drag the gods into their lives, to me it seems clumsy and too convenient. What's the point of striving to better yourself and your art if some higher cosmic order can arbitrarily decide to elevate your glory? Karsus had it right, Elminster had it easy.




I'm not fond of gods, and that's one of the reasons I don't like seeing my favorite characters ascending. In a novel, if it is revealed that something happens due to a direct or indirect intervention of a god, my interest in the story usually plummets. I understand the need to "install" the gods in the setting, but I'd rather see them in the background - always - than see them meddling. Like you said, it's too convenient, and for me, it also kills whatever "mystery" is left in the story.

Every beginning has an end.
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Merrith
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  06:10:34  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't even notice this thread and I don't post on here much, but wanted to add my 2 cents since it's clear many others felt the need to and were so convinced of the "rightness" of their own particular opinions (even though they are ALL right as each of us will enjoy or not enjoy any particular novel).

EMD was a big hit for me, and while I'll try not to go over territory already covered as far as basic facts of the plot and characters go, I would like to explain why the setting and tone of the novel made me enjoy it so much.

Firstly, this wasn't so much a revisiting of old characters for me as an almost rebuilding of certain parts of the Realms for me since almost 100 years has passed and we knew not too much at all how Cormyr has evolved in that time save for bits in the FRCG and other tidbits revealed elsewhere. You not only get to see where the characters are NOW, but you get bits and pieces of lore and memories that help fill in the gaps in the previous century you were curious about. At the same time some of that lore and knowledge ties back to even further points, both past and future. This is the subject of my greatest fascination with the Realms in that it's a giant spiderweb of interconnected lore and I want to know all of it. While some may dislike the pace at which we get to see all of the individual strands revealed and where they connect to the whole of the web, I love watching it unfold a piece at at time.

Secondly, one of my favorite aspects of an Ed Realms' novel is how he can have so many smaller plots and story lines all happening at once that tie in and affect each other to build the whole of the book. All of the details provided for even the smallest of side stories always has meaning, whether simply for added realism and state of mind of the characters/citizens of whichever area of the Realms he is discussing, or for making the reader think about what may be going on behind the scenes, either in that particular subplot or in others like it. It's all built up brick by brick...some might find it boring and excessive, others will love the intricacy. I am of the latter group.

Thirdly, I went into the book knowing it was the first part of a longer series and this was the introduction to characters new and old, explanation some things but leaving most others hidden or hinted at. As many have pointed out, Ed always seems to insert things that may seem mundane and easily forgotten in a small snippet in one book, but that tiny bit of lore or even that character that he detailed for no reason you could think of at the time could have big implications later on.

This Manshoon was different to me. How long had any of the rest of the active clones actually in effect "existed" as a conscious being. This particular one has been a vampire for a century and with possibly all other of his clones destroyed, has had to walk a much more careful path. His meticulous scheming and endless monologues only seem to point to the obsession he has for El, and to a degree we've never been able to witness prior perhaps because even with a transfer of memory to each successive clone this one is different having existed for so long without being killed. Knowing this very one was ordered by Elminster and his daughters masquerading as several different supremely powerful mages to not do certain things in the wake of the Spellplague only make me believe he has his own destiny to play as the story unfolds.

Clearly, his style and this book isn't for everyone. Personally I was immensely intrigued to see these characters we loved at the very ends of their abilities, trying so desperately to still do what they felt they had to do. They always seem to have knowledge and lore that they can continue to do what they feel is right if only they had the power and ability to get to them. Before they could evade or destroy any opposition with almost ease. Now they struggle merely to move around in a land they have arguably done more a service to than anyone alive or dead.

Even the supposed revelations and "returns" in this novel could be merely plots or ploys by players behind the scenes. I can't wait to read BED and the rest of this series.

Btw also I noticed somewhere on page 3 someone talking about Netherese survivors and hearing one was a mage in Waterdeep while there was some hinting that it may have been Mirt. If I'm not mistaken that Netherese survivor is actually Telbran Nelarn...a Netherese posing as a book collector called "Hurlblar Corthyn". I get this from the sourcebook City of Splendors: Waterdeep (page 31). He's listed as a 24th level sorcerer. Hope that helps.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  06:22:14  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well said Merrith, well said!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  06:25:13  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith

Even the supposed revelations and "returns" in this novel could be merely plots or ploys by players behind the scenes. I can't wait to read BED and the rest of this series.




Mystra's voice should better be her own, real voice---and not Cyric's nor Shar's. Otherwise, I doubt I would ever bother reading B.E.D.

Every beginning has an end.
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Merrith
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  06:32:32  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Well said Merrith, well said!



The only time an opinion of one's own feelings for a novel is NOT well said is when it reads to most people as the ONLY opinion ANYONE should have of that particular work in my mind. But yes, I found many things to enjoy about the book, the idea behind having more to read about El, and the future books I have to look forward to.
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Merrith
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  06:37:47  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Merrith

Even the supposed revelations and "returns" in this novel could be merely plots or ploys by players behind the scenes. I can't wait to read BED and the rest of this series.




Mystra's voice should better be her own, real voice---and not Cyric's nor Shar's. Otherwise, I doubt I would ever bother reading B.E.D.



And that's fine, plenty others might love any possible intrigue regarding that particular plot. That would be quite a big tease, but I must know what Ed has in mind either way :)
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2010 :  08:42:59  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Well said Merrith, well said!



The only time an opinion of one's own feelings for a novel is NOT well said is when it reads to most people as the ONLY opinion ANYONE should have of that particular work in my mind. But yes, I found many things to enjoy about the book, the idea behind having more to read about El, and the future books I have to look forward to.


I totally agreed with every point you made.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  00:00:02  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Merrith

Even the supposed revelations and "returns" in this novel could be merely plots or ploys by players behind the scenes. I can't wait to read BED and the rest of this series.




Mystra's voice should better be her own, real voice---and not Cyric's nor Shar's. Otherwise, I doubt I would ever bother reading B.E.D.



Couldn't agree more.


I know at my age I should know better than to be close-minded
on a particular thing, but if that turns out to be Shar or Cyril. And not Mystra, two thing will happen.

1) I will vomit to purge my soul
2) I will never read another FR novel.

I know that's terribly unfair of me, but I'm sick of the whole Cyric and Shar outsmarting/ defeating the goddess of magic on her home turf thing.

My latest theory is that they are Mystra's unwitting pawns in her larger and unkonwn endgame to stabilize magic and she has used their overinflated egos to let them believe they achieved the impossible, when in reality all they did was free Mystra to pursue her ultimate goal.


A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  00:37:47  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Merrith

Btw also I noticed somewhere on page 3 someone talking about Netherese survivors and hearing one was a mage in Waterdeep while there was some hinting that it may have been Mirt. If I'm not mistaken that Netherese survivor is actually Telbran Nelarn...a Netherese posing as a book collector called "Hurlblar Corthyn". I get this from the sourcebook City of Splendors: Waterdeep (page 31). He's listed as a 24th level sorcerer. Hope that helps.
Telbran/Hurlblar is an interesting guess, I'd never considered this possibility.

My personal guess is the last Netherese survivor would be Trobriand the Metal Mage; although we know he apprenticed under Halaster we don't know anything about his prior background (well maybe we do, but I can't recall reading about it).

This Netherese survivor might be a disguised lich, perhaps even Aumvor the Undying (if canon hasn't located him elsewhere). Or may have possibly been "dormant" for many centuries (Phezult's sleep of ages or similar magic) before assuming a life in Waterdeep. Or be a dragon polymorphed into human form. None of these possibilities exclude this mage being Telbran or Trobiand, I think.

Another interesting possibility is that this mage is now a sentient magical item/artifact/construct, perhaps a (one of a kind?) Netherese version of a tel'kiira.

[/Ayrik]
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  00:43:41  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

quote:
Merrith

Btw also I noticed somewhere on page 3 someone talking about Netherese survivors and hearing one was a mage in Waterdeep while there was some hinting that it may have been Mirt. If I'm not mistaken that Netherese survivor is actually Telbran Nelarn...a Netherese posing as a book collector called "Hurlblar Corthyn". I get this from the sourcebook City of Splendors: Waterdeep (page 31). He's listed as a 24th level sorcerer. Hope that helps.
Telbran/Hurlblar is an interesting guess, I'd never considered this possibility.

My personal guess is the last Netherese survivor would be Trobriand the Metal Mage; although we know he apprenticed under Halaster we don't know anything about his prior background (well maybe we do, but I can't recall reading about it).

This Netherese survivor might be a disguised lich, perhaps even Aumvor the Undying (if canon hasn't located him elsewhere). Or may have possibly been "dormant" for many centuries (Phezult's sleep of ages or similar magic) before assuming a life in Waterdeep. Or be a dragon polymorphed into human form. None of these possibilities exclude this mage being Telbran or Trobiand, I think.

Another interesting possibility is that this mage is now a sentient magical item/artifact/construct, perhaps a (one of a kind?) Netherese version of a tel'kiira.



I believe that Ed stated that he was posing as a merchant....
Which would be tough for an Object to do

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Merrith
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  00:51:04  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

quote:
Merrith

Btw also I noticed somewhere on page 3 someone talking about Netherese survivors and hearing one was a mage in Waterdeep while there was some hinting that it may have been Mirt. If I'm not mistaken that Netherese survivor is actually Telbran Nelarn...a Netherese posing as a book collector called "Hurlblar Corthyn". I get this from the sourcebook City of Splendors: Waterdeep (page 31). He's listed as a 24th level sorcerer. Hope that helps.
Telbran/Hurlblar is an interesting guess, I'd never considered this possibility.

My personal guess is the last Netherese survivor would be Trobriand the Metal Mage; although we know he apprenticed under Halaster we don't know anything about his prior background (well maybe we do, but I can't recall reading about it).

This Netherese survivor might be a disguised lich, perhaps even Aumvor the Undying (if canon hasn't located him elsewhere). Or may have possibly been "dormant" for many centuries (Phezult's sleep of ages or similar magic) before assuming a life in Waterdeep. Or be a dragon polymorphed into human form. None of these possibilities exclude this mage being Telbran or Trobiand, I think.

Another interesting possibility is that this mage is now a sentient magical item/artifact/construct, perhaps a (one of a kind?) Netherese version of a tel'kiira.



Some of your possibilities are even more intriguing, as Telbran in his entry in the source I listed wasn't deemed to have been much of a powerful sorcerer prior to the collapse of Netheril. Aumvor I faintly recall reading was in his lair somewhere below the High Forest maybe? Speculating half from memory there, would have to find the Champions of Ruins sourcebook somewhere to double check. Haven't heard any lore about him that is dated to 4E though. None of Trobriand's history prior to apprenticing to Halaster is mentioned in the Waterdeep sourcebook as you say as well.

Good ideas to chew on :)
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  02:09:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A sentient (ex-arcanist) neth'kiira gem could easily pose as a merchant, or as any other character type it's bonded with; it could even have a different owner/host every lifetime, currently that of some little merchant who benefits from access to spellcasting. Purely non-canon, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
581 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  09:32:01  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hit

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe

USA
436 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2010 :  21:26:42  Show Profile Send Brynweir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Merrith

Even the supposed revelations and "returns" in this novel could be merely plots or ploys by players behind the scenes. I can't wait to read BED and the rest of this series.




Mystra's voice should better be her own, real voice---and not Cyric's nor Shar's. Otherwise, I doubt I would ever bother reading B.E.D.



Couldn't agree more.


I know at my age I should know better than to be close-minded
on a particular thing, but if that turns out to be Shar or Cyril. And not Mystra, two thing will happen.

1) I will vomit to purge my soul
2) I will never read another FR novel.

I know that's terribly unfair of me, but I'm sick of the whole Cyric and Shar outsmarting/ defeating the goddess of magic on her home turf thing.

My latest theory is that they are Mystra's unwitting pawns in her larger and unkonwn endgame to stabilize magic and she has used their overinflated egos to let them believe they achieved the impossible, when in reality all they did was free Mystra to pursue her ultimate goal.





You are not the only one. I'm completely unfair and yet happy with my bias. I agree that Mystra should never be defeated by those two whack jobs, especially on her home turf, and I would love it if they were simply pawns in one of her schemes.

And I already refuse to read 4E novels out of personal bias... I am very close-minded on some things

Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D

He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.

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Merrith
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  23:00:27  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir

And I already refuse to read 4E novels out of personal bias... I am very close-minded on some things



I thought much the same way when the change to 4E first occurred, but I couldn't resist reading all of my favorite authors and they have not disappointed. Plenty of things I miss and are sad that we didn't get great resolutions on, but I have faith that Ed and others will do their best to provide as good a conclusion to stories that ended as is possible. Some of Ed's comments and the stuff I've read lead me to believe there is more at work behind the scenes that is yet to be revealed and I am hopeful for that.

After all, gods have contingency plans of their own I would bet
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe

USA
436 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2010 :  23:56:52  Show Profile Send Brynweir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I understand, but with thousands of other books and other authors to read, I'll be okay for a while. I never even finished all the pre-4th novels. I'm good for a while.

Perhaps Paul Kemp could write something that might make me change my mind

Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D

He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  00:22:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Being 'Netherease' merely means that at one time, you were a citizen of that empire, and DOES NOT necessarily imply that you were of Netherease descent (in other-words, there were plenty of non-natives learning within their enclaves).

I personally feel Halaster spent some time amongst them - he was alive throughout their rise and fall. Otherwise, just what was an uber-archmage of his caliber doing during the millenia between Imaskar's fall, and his appearance in Undermountain? 'Slumming' amongst the Calishites?

I've personally linked him to the rise of Thaeravel, but that's pure homebrew (there is a VERY weak connection, between the Thaeravel Talfir and Halaster, by way of Shar - he had to have turned to her at some point). Like I said, far from anything canon - just some idle conjecture on my part.

Also, my own (homebrew) Netherease Archmage - Seluj Enrev - was of mixed Calishite and Netherease descent (he gets his first name from his father's side, but took his mother's maiden name, to be better-accepted amongst the other Netherease, some of whom thought being 'pure blood' was very important). He's the guy who sheared-off the top of the largest, highest mountain in the Yehimals for his enclave (and inadvertently created the vast, high plateau that would later be settled by the Arcane and turned into The Dock.

Sorry, a bit off-topic. I'm trying not to read any spoilers here, so I'm keeping myself entertained in other ways. Anyway, my point is, anyone who was alive at the time of the first Netherease Empire could be referred to as 'Netherease', if we have no canon stating they were elsewhere at that time. I'm sure there were even a few non0humans (probably in disguise) hiding amongst them as well.

Hmmm... how old are the Blood of Maluag?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2010 00:28:58
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  02:05:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I'd make the Shar/Halaster connection a more recent thing -- the Time of Troubles, to be specific. That's when we know that Shar slew a deity of the Underdark, and popped up in Waterdeep. It's not all that much of a stretch to assume she stopped in Halaster's Halls and said "Hi!" to him during that timeframe.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  02:45:39  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re: Netherese survivors...

Many of their descendants created Haluraa. Some, over the years, turned into magical items. Others went into hiding/exile/etc.

And Ed's also detailed several surviving Netherese in his replies here at Candlekeep.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  02:45:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the 'Halaster in Thaeravel' thing was a bit of a stretch.. thats a definite WIP.

I like the idea of a group of disgruntled Imaskari leaving the Raurin area and settling in the then-uncivilized Tun region (its obviously a crater from ancient times), to carry-on with their own areas of study unmolested by other judgmental Imaskari. I would think that several were involved, and at least one of them would have an interest in the Shadoweave (and being affiliated with a Goddess, obviously NOT something the average Imaskar would have wanted anything to do with). Figure they were 'religious refugees', who sought asylum amongst the primitive Talfir peoples of the region.

I will keep that part, and chuck the rest having to do with Halaster (although he could have spent some time amongst them). I've slowly been building a mental picture of the history of that region, which is extremely convoluted (just about EVERYONE has fought over it - even the Battle of God's Theater happened there. There have been no less then a dozen 'empires' that have claimed those lands (including Dwarves, Giants, and Elves).

There is a power there... an ANCIENT power...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  02:46:29  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re: Halaster and Netheril, we've this tidbit from Sage Schend:-
quote:
This isn't a fact to be nailed down, folks. Ed & I intended that Halaster be whatever the GMs needed him to be for their games. THAT'S why his status in Stardock revealed so many mad images and forms that he could be anything to anyone.

Yes, he's old enough to have been from Netheril. He's actually old enough to have come from the Imaskari lands as well. Just because he has Netherese contemporaries doesn't prove anything about his origins. His secrets are so long lost (or at least well hidden) that's it's almost irrelevant to discuss what he was 1400 years ago....unless you want to do new things with him in regards to 3E changes.....but that's up to you, not any official canon.

Steven Schend
Whose obfuscations in the service of the DM seem to only cause confusion rather than relief and freedom.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  02:53:38  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd continue Wooly's suggestion by somehow linking Shar to the events of Halaster's Higharvestide (1369DR) ... perhaps she manipulated the actions of the Twisted Rune (to exact vengeance or payment upon Halaster, or even to betray him)? I'd say she may have been motivated during the ToT to "turn Halaster to the Dark Side" (and perhaps steal a drip of Mystra's power) to access her Shadow Weave, yet Halaster somehow denied her, and she may have been powerful enough to try again (more forcefully) just a few years before the return of Shade (1371DR).

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Dec 2010 02:54:55
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  03:04:36  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eh. I'm kinda tired of the notion that Shar almost always seems to be responsible for "this" and "that."

I see the Higharvestide as simply the manipulative action of the Twisted Rune. It's completely within their scope, and all without divine intervention.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  03:05:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd go back a bit further then that, although not as far back as Thaeravel (now that I have given it some thought).

I think it had something to do with Undermountain, and tampering with it's Mythals (which sort-of proves he had a working knowledge of Netherease magi-tech). If Illefarn was established on top of even older - say Batrachi or Sarrukh - ruins, then its Mythal may have already been absorbing 'corruption' from some deeply buried source, and Halaster may have inadvertently tapped into that.

Pure conjecture, once again (I'm getting paranoid about people yelling "Source!").

The only thing we know for sure that was 'Under Illefarn' was a small Dwarven realm, AFAIK.

BTW, does anyone own a physical copy of that module?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2010 03:07:06
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2010 :  03:11:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll have to confess I'm getting a little tired of Shar being the mastermind behind *everything* evil that happens in the Realms. It'd be nice to see Bane and Talos get back to work, or even see puny mortals (like Manshoon) actually do anything of consequence other than just constantly swat at other puny mortals (like Elminster). That's probably why I like Szass so much, he's completely unconnected to Shar.

[/Ayrik]
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