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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 22:48:49
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Seems like I have to steer the wheel as we're off course again...
It's just so sad to see the characters you've grown to like become mere shadows/husks of their former selves, and to see and hear them lament their loss. And knowing everything they've done and sacrificed for 'the greater good,' you're likely to say they don't deserve it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 22:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I hate the concept of chairs. 
You people and your sitting on the floors!
Damn hippies!! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Elfinblade
Senior Scribe
Norway
377 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:08:00
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I sat in a chair once. I approved of the relaxing feeling i got, and would pursue that feeling of utter elevation of my rear end.
Whoa. Utter elevation.. that sounded definite didnt it! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You can never truly appreciate the 'ramblings' in Ed's books if you don't appreciate the Realms first.
Doesn't apply to me. Sure, I appreciate the Realms. And sometimes I also appreciate the 'ramblings' in Ed's books---so long as they're sensible and really improve the story, as in the case of the previous Elminster books. But the ramblings at times become unbearable. This novel has glaring examples of that.
Errr... the ramblings you refer to are some of the best examples of Realmslore that you can find anywhere in the published canon. They demonstrate the true depth and awesome creation that is Ed's Realms... showing what life is like in the world of the Forgotten Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:21:52
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| I noticed Ed used a lot of synonyms for harlot. I haven't read all the Kyrene-compiled entries of Realmspeak, so I'm wondering: Is playpretty a euphemism for coinlass? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You didn't phrase it in terms of specific characters -- you phrased it to refer to the concepts themselves.
Because to me they are one and the same. If you think otherwise, then it's not I who have a problem.
And we've gone somewhat astray...
Back to the topic, then:
I forgot to include in the not so good points the nearly ubiquitous 'stlarn!' Expletives are fine. Hearing them so often used like a broken record is another story. It's indeed a relief that the second half of the book has a relatively minimum use of it.
I think you're overlooking the fact that the characters using such expletives are necessary because of how they've been written/portrayed in Ed's tale.
I'll admit, I'm often somewhat conservative when it comes to the use of expletives for little or no reason. Personally, I cannot stand them in either films or novels -- unless they're intimately connected aspects of the characters using them. Which, in Ed's case, is more the likely the reason.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You didn't phrase it in terms of specific characters -- you phrased it to refer to the concepts themselves.
Because to me they are one and the same. If you think otherwise, then it's not I who have a problem.
And we've gone somewhat astray...
Back to the topic, then:
I forgot to include in the not so good points the nearly ubiquitous 'stlarn!' Expletives are fine. Hearing them so often used like a broken record is another story. It's indeed a relief that the second half of the book has a relatively minimum use of it.
I think you're overlooking the fact that the characters using such expletives are necessary because of how they've been written/portrayed in Ed's tale.
I'll admit, I'm often somewhat conservative when it comes to the use of expletives for little or no reason. Personally, I cannot stand them in either films or novels -- unless they're intimately connected aspects of the characters using them. Which, in Ed's case, is more the likely the reason.
Intimately connected in the sense that they're rude and reckless? Being beautiful is intimately connected to Storm, as being powerful and nearly invincible is to Telamont. But why didn't I hear them repeatedly scream "I am farruking beautiful!" "I am farruking powerful!"? Cursing being intimately connected to a character doesn't mean we need to hear him do so oh-so-very-often. There are various ways to manifest anger, frustration, whatever emotion you feel when you're on the verge to curse---like hitting a table or a wall, throwing something, slapping your nearest servant, prolonging "aaaaaah!", being sarcastic, and many more... All in the name of not being repetitive, which at times become annoying. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 00:23:22
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Erik and Matt,
this guy goes out of his way to cause problems in the forums.
For what reason, I don't know. I say both of you should just
tune him out.
Just Sayin, |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 00:41:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You didn't phrase it in terms of specific characters -- you phrased it to refer to the concepts themselves.
Because to me they are one and the same. If you think otherwise, then it's not I who have a problem.
And we've gone somewhat astray...
Back to the topic, then:
I forgot to include in the not so good points the nearly ubiquitous 'stlarn!' Expletives are fine. Hearing them so often used like a broken record is another story. It's indeed a relief that the second half of the book has a relatively minimum use of it.
I think you're overlooking the fact that the characters using such expletives are necessary because of how they've been written/portrayed in Ed's tale.
I'll admit, I'm often somewhat conservative when it comes to the use of expletives for little or no reason. Personally, I cannot stand them in either films or novels -- unless they're intimately connected aspects of the characters using them. Which, in Ed's case, is more the likely the reason.
And I think I know why I forgot to put it in my list of WOEDIHTSTT Points...They are not a big deal anymore in the second half of the book. Thankfully!
...One more thing I find commendable about this book (despite my numerous quibbles) is NOT seeing El descend into being EMO. He introspected and felt sad about so many things, but he never dwelt on them far more than necessary. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 01:00:21
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Its not that I hate chairs... well... maybe a little... (I was molested by one at a tender age). Sometimes me and my chairophobe friends go out and find chairs walking by themselves and beat them up.
WHAT?! You've never heard of 'Chair-Hate crimes'? 
Why would anyone bother with a chair, when a bed allows you to be so much more.... prone?
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
It's just so sad to see the characters you've grown to like become mere shadows/husks of their former selves, and to see and hear them lament their loss. And knowing everything they've done and sacrificed for 'the greater good,' you're likely to say they don't deserve it.
It seems I've heard nearly this exact same argument in regards to Drizzt in Gauntlgrym.
I wonder if this is all part of the 'lessening' of the over-the-top NPCs that made folks 'feel bad' about their own puny PCs. I know that's why they pruned the hell out of the setting (killed damn-near everyone), but I have to wonder in regards to these two recent novels (and uber-characters) if there wasn't more to their 'grand design'.
I suppose only Ed and Bob would know, since the two best-know Munchkins are 'theirs' (and I mean that in the nicest way - I love Elminster).
As for what you are looking for - the 'perfect' novel - its a myth. I can't remember the last time any novel made me happy 100%.
Evermeet came close... damn close....
If you can walk away from it with some feeling of satisfaction (rather then you wasted your time - I've read a couple books like that), then the book served its intended purpose - to keep you mildly entertained for a day or two. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 01:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its not that I hate chairs... well... maybe a little... (I was molested by one at a tender age). Sometimes me and my chairophobe friends go out and find chairs walking by themselves and beat them up.
Is that for real?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for what you are looking for - the 'perfect' novel - its a myth. I can't remember the last time any novel made me happy 100%.
If you can walk away from it with some feeling of satisfaction (rather then you wasted your time - I've read a couple books like that), then the book served its intended purpose - to keep you mildly entertained for a day or two.
I never said that. Nor ever will. There's no perfect novel, though I say Feist's and RLB's masterpieces are close. What I always look for is a book that would entertain me far more than it would disappoint me. This novel just happens to make me feel otherwise. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 02:06:18
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Ah, okay - gotcha.
It was disappointing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 04:59:22
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| But mildly interesting. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 05:58:15
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Well, my initial post touched off a bit of a firestorm and some bad feelings. I hate to bring things back around to this topic, but I'll see it through to the end. My apologies go first to dennis for burning the edges off his otherwise fine scroll.
Yes, I'm an avid reader, roughly half of my reading is fiction, a large portion of that fiction is fantasy genre, and much of that fantasy is composed of FR titles. I'm not especially particular about correlating the novels with the game; it's "nice" when they translate into each other yet still perfectly fine when the novels carry the setting and events beyond the scope of the game "rules". I have my own troublesome thoughts about certain "disruptive" RSEs and suchlike, but I generally try to not let my bias interfere (much) with simply enjoying the novels and the Realms for being just what they are. Yes, I'll admit some affinity towards "manly" themes involving Netheril, Shades, Zulkirs, Lich blasting, etc - in this regard I suffer from exactly the same sort of "childishness" which I condemned FR authors (as a group) for catering up.
I did spend some time compiling a response with "actual examples" cited from various FR novels, many novels, old and new. And I've decided to toss it all out the window after some reflection and after reading through what's been said in this scroll. My reasons:
Because it's clear that my rude generalization was patently wrong. This is something I realized even while perusing through my own shelf of FR titles for examples to support my argument.
Because my comments were based on the disatisfaction I felt after recently reading one particular Young Adult Realms novel (which I will not name) that is - in my mind - from a technical standpoint, a rather poorly written novel. Not that my clouded mood should at all serve as an excuse, but hey, there it is.
Because, of course, I have no authority to criticize or judge books I haven't even read. My perceptions about D&D evolving into an exclusively Young Adult product were not (in the end) actually drawn from any substantial proof of that claim. My accusations about Wizards/Hasbro policies were assumptive and based only on anecdotal speculation. As already commented, the technical format I attacked is a valid (and popular) writing style and by no means practiced only by Realms authors. Some of my favourite books (outside of Realms genre) just happen to be written in this style.
Because there is nothing to gain from continuing a battle on treacherous footing. There's even less to gain from a battle without any clear objective. I might - at best - achieve a Pyrrhic victory which results in alienating many authors who's work I actually very much appreciate, enjoy reading, and (in many cases) admire.
So, yes, I do withdraw my argument entirely; it was unjustified and it was wrong, moreso since it generalized the authors in a demeaning way. My apologies again to Erik, Matt, and other FR/D&D authors who may have (indeed, might yet be) insulted by my ignorant statement; I may not personally like everything you all write but I do like enough of it to keep coming back for more. I've deleted the offending post (though it's been quoted); further damage control is beyond my means. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Nov 2010 06:50:11 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 07:02:45
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Well, that's a very elegant retraction. Apologies clearly accepted, and for the record, I do believe that you meant no offense.
The way I look at it, 80-90% of the writing out there, I'm just not gonna like (or at least I'm not going to REALLY like, anyway). And you're not gonna like 80-90% of the writing out there. And while I'm sure some of my 80-90% crosses over with some of your 80-90%, there are bound to be things that I really like and consider really great, about which you hold the diametrically opposite opinion.
And really, that's ok.
When it comes down to it, you need to read what you think is good, or at least what you think is enjoyable. Because guess what? It is--in the only way that really matters! 
Life is too short to read what you don't like.
Cheers
P.S. Also, for the record, I believe life is too short to come on websites and post about things you don't like, but c'est la vie.
P.P.S. And I, for one, enjoyed Elminster Must Die. So feel free to take that to the bank. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 07:54:59
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Wow. I'm seeing a lot of negative comments, and hardly anyone mentioned what they did like and why, even though most seem to have liked the book, judging from the poll. I will go on record as saying I loved it. Yes, THAT word appeared a LOT, but I didn't mind, because it seemed to fit the folks using it. And I'm not especially invested one way or the other with Manshoon, so having him appear in a novel (And quite frankly, it's the first one I've actually read with him, so I really don't see what the fuss is about) was not a problem to me. In fact, reading his little rant that "you're going down" actually made me laugh. I could SOO see a villain doing that- in ANY genre!
I loved the young pair of Arclath and Amarune. I was rooting for both of them from the very beginning. Some of the other characters I didn't care about, and my one big gripe was how many times El decided to start blasting away at Cormyran War Wizards 'for the greater good" of that very same kingdom, all for the sake of returning Alassra's sanity, with the excuse of "saving the Realms from themselves." Sorry, I'm not sure I buy that. His reasons actually sounded a bit selfish to me, but then again, I also feel he deserves to be after everything he's been through. Just not like that.
My last big surprise, and a quite an enjoyable one, was the return of Mirt. Loved it! Poor guy getting brought back into the world in the middle of all this insanity, and he's just sort of running with it. That would have been me, I think. Just smile, shrug, and make the best of things.
On a side-note: Just got my copy of the 2nd ed Drow of the Underdark book in the mail today. Yipee! It's chock full of stuff I can use in my games/stories, and I'd like to personally thank both Ed for writing it, and RAS for providing so much of the original lore for it. Now I'm just waiting for my "Complete Bard" and "Complete Elves" Handbooks to get here. Yes, there IS a trend here.... Next on my list is "Complete Ninja" and Complete Paladin". Slowly picking up some of those 2nd ed books that I never could get when they were new. And using them well. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 08:17:39
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quote:
P.P.S. And I, for one, enjoyed Elminster Must Die. So feel free to take that to the bank.
Ka-ching!
Personally, I also loved the book. El as being old and tired had been explored a little bit, before (Shadows of Doom, mainly), but it was really re-enforced in this novel, especially combined with the overall downfall of the Chosen (I must say, I've never cared much for the Simbul, but seeing her as she is now is depressing).
Also, I couldn't help but get excited at the thought of Cormyr at that time, with War Wizards having lost so much of their powers of old, and without Vangerdahast absolutely controlling every event within the country, and with Netheril-controlled Sembia right next door... A 4E Cormyr trilogy would be an absolute treat, I tell you, even without El or any of the other established characters. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
Edited by - Sandro on 30 Nov 2010 08:23:15 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 08:47:23
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Erik,
Thanks for accepting my apology, and thanx for the edit.
quote:
Erik Scott de Bie
If you ever do end up reading one of my novels (I recommend Ghostwalker, based on what you just said), do make sure to tell me what you think of it. Maybe it'll come off as what you think, or maybe not.
It turns out that Realms of the Dead is on "back order" (which probably means, as usual, that I won't get a chance to read it until I spot a copy at the library). I've reserved a copy of Ghostwalker ... though I'll caution you that I'm not shy about offering my personal critique (I obviously won't be repeating my last fumble). My "expectations" tend to be an ever-changing mix of technical, thematic, and entertainment elements - I'm not at all any sort of professional writer/editor, lol.  quote:
P.P.S. And I, for one, enjoyed Elminster Must Die. So feel free to take that to the bank.
I like the controversy this book seems to inspire (and Ed most often does not disappoint), so I'll give it a shot. Heh - sorry, dennis.  quote:
How do you even know where Depths of Madness takes place? Or do you make a habit of reading spoilers before you read a novel in question?
I tend to do my book shopping in largish batches and have developed the habit of investing a few minutes into combing (online and offline) book reviews. I tend to avoid spoilers though some do inevitably leak through. I don't actually know much about where Depths of Madness is set, though it doesn't advertise any of my usual "interest" keywords.
Matt,
I know that you were one of the writers responsible for creating much of my beloved 2E (and 3E) lore, but I don't recall reading any novels or stories penned under your name. FWIW, I've noticed the structure and general quality of writing in D&D core books has consistently improved over the years - a quick flip through four editions of the DMG says it all. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Nov 2010 09:33:20 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 13:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
Also, I couldn't help but get excited at the thought of Cormyr at that time, with War Wizards having lost so much of their powers of old, and without Vangerdahast absolutely controlling every event within the country, and with Netheril-controlled Sembia right next door... A 4E Cormyr trilogy would be an absolute treat, I tell you, even without El or any of the other established characters.
The Wizards of War indeed lost much of their power. What with Dolt Royal [Mage Royal] easily dispatched by a mere undead. Yes, that undead got an aid from the cockroach, but I imagine Vangey would have done better if it was him in the Dolt's shoes.
On the side note: I didn't get it when Arclath [or was it some other noble?] said that being in Sembia's border [which is controlled by the Shadovar] it's expected of them to be cynical. What's the relation at all? Hmmm... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 13:16:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I loved the young pair of Arclath and Amarune. I was rooting for both of them from the very beginning. Some of the other characters I didn't care about, and my one big gripe was how many times El decided to start blasting away at Cormyran War Wizards 'for the greater good" of that very same kingdom, all for the sake of returning Alassra's sanity, with the excuse of "saving the Realms from themselves." Sorry, I'm not sure I buy that. His reasons actually sounded a bit selfish to me, but then again, I also feel he deserves to be after everything he's been through. Just not like that.
In fairness to him, he changed his mind quite a lot of times. He said at first the choice was easy: save his beloved. But later on he saw Cormyr's need to be more important...Then changed his mind again, justifying that Cormyr would still stand even without the Nine, because it's the common people who made up the kingdom, not the silly, arrogant nobles; not the war wizards; not the highnights; not the royal family. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 14:14:04
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''as if I care'', I lost interest in Elminster a while ago.
Also people that are against the voting want to hide the faults of FR fiction. Without such threads online it would be difficult to find quality fantasy if everyone was allowed to only post positive comments. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 14:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
''as if I care'', I lost interest in Elminster a while ago.
Also people that are against the voting want to hide the faults of FR fiction. Without such threads online it would be difficult to find quality fantasy if everyone was allowed to only post positive comments.
No one has ever said that people couldn't post negative comments. I myself have stated, more than once, that I'm not a fan of most of Ed's fiction.
That said, people weren't saying not to vote on the quality of a novel -- the point is that a poll that starts off with a tone of "I didn't like this book, did anyone else like it?" isn't as neutral and unbiased as "What do people think of this book?" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 16:37:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Elfinblade
I sat in a chair once. I approved of the relaxing feeling i got, and would pursue that feeling of utter elevation of my rear end.
Whoa. Utter elevation.. that sounded definite didnt it!
Thou are truly an adrenaline junkie! Times have changed. In them old days life as a minor scribe was so hard, we had to eat the bark from the trees to survive and be on foot all day long... and nowadays all those young scribes are doing crazy and dangerous stuff like sitting on chairs!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its not that I hate chairs... well... maybe a little... (I was molested by one at a tender age). Sometimes me and my chairophobe friends go out and find chairs walking by themselves and beat them up.
I heard those badly treated chairs formed some kind of party named "Chair Pride" somewhere, to defend their rights against dangerous Great Readers. |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 17:14:31
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| Yes, he did, but he also used "saving the kingdom from itself" as his justification for putting her first. Apparently, he seemed to think it could not survive on its own without his AND her) help. A little egotistic, if you think about it. El's always been a meddler, though, so I sort of shrugged it off as his usual sense of "world can't live without me" mentality. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 20:24:21
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And of course this thread makes me just want to read it all the more, to see what all the 'fuss' is about... thus proving "there is no such thing as 'bad publicity'" (a GREAT D&D example of that is when the RC church 'blasted' D&D back in the 80's - I had a waiting list to DM games!)
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
FWIW, I've noticed the structure and general quality of writing in D&D core books has consistently improved over the years - a quick flip through four editions of the DMG says it all.
You include 4th edition in that?
Interesting....
Anyhow, I will agree with you on the novels - I have gone back and read some early FR ones, and even a VERY early GH one, and all I can say is Thank God the genre has matured. Read Spine of the World if you think game-novels are 'kiddy-books' (and see why RAS deserves to be a 'best-selling Author').
If Elminster is 'blasting away at War-Wizards' just because he is in a foul mood, then I would say that is a VERY real portrayal of him, and a continuation of the character-development I saw for him in Elminster's Duaghter.
There's a point when 'being tired' morphs into 'being fed-up' - that's when your old neighbors become cranky and yell "Get off my lawn!". Elminster is FINALLY yelling at the 'kiddies' to get the hell off his lawn.
As for Mirt... thanks Alystra... that was one spoiler I could have done without. Its my own fault - I knew there would be some when I came in here... No worries.
Not sure how I feel about that - I have resigned myself to the 4e changes, and it appears a lot of 'old stuff' (MYSTRA?!) is being 'brought-back', which is not at all what I wanted.
Its a bit wishy-washy, if you ask me. If you are not going to stick to your guns, then the setting becomes 'fan-driven', and if you want a good dose of what that is like, read some fan-fic (95% of it is utter garbage... and borderline porn). I may have hated the changes, but I hate 'no backbone' even more - if they can't stand by their decisions (for better or worse), it just makes it so much harder to accept anything else that is done.
I can live with a reset to the 1e setting, but putting stuff back into the new setting seems to me like too much of a compromise, and I doubt it will make anyone happy.
Ideally, they should have two setting-eras (both with the new rules), to appeal to both groups, but I fully understand that corporate logistics makes that impossible - the days of an infinite number of sub-settings is over. Splitting the fan-base like that would be counter-productive, from a business standpoint.
So while I understand and accept any direction they take, I feel I still must acknowledge my anger toward certain decisions.
You know what makes a good leader? Making FIRM decisions. They do not have to be good decisions, you merely need to be decisive and act upon it (I won't bore you with a long list of RW 'leaders' who behaved impulsively/rashly and are still considered 'great').
The second quality a 'good' leader needs is to inspire loyalty. I won't even go there.
Not a rant - I'm here for the duration - just some observations by a an old, cranky fan. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2010 20:34:04 |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 21:18:30
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I wonder who voted for "Somewhere in between." A guest?
I voted for 'somewhere in between'. I thought it was alright but nothing exceptional. I have often found that while I really love Ed's gaming work, there is something about his fiction that just misses the mark with me. I find it really hard work to get through one of his novels and this was much the same, unfortunately.
Strangely, I quite like his short stories, which is odd because I don't usually enjoy short stories at all, (with the exception of a couple of authors.) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 22:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Also people that are against the voting want to hide the faults of FR fiction. Without such threads online it would be difficult to find quality fantasy if everyone was allowed to only post positive comments.
Well, I for one am not "against the voting" in order to "hide the faults of FR fiction." What I am against is unreasoning dismissal, rude name-calling, and unfair generalizations.
In the name of doing exactly what you suggest ("find quality fantasy"), it is not helpful to read "this sucked" or "I hated this" or "the author is clearly an idiot." By the same token, it's unhelpful to read "this was just great" or "I loved this" or "this writer is the best OMG!" I've read lots of great fiction that's received awfully dismissive reviews, and lots of not-so-great fiction that lots of people have loved.
I for one have no problem with people posting negative comments. But sweeping generalizations about "the faults of FR fiction" are, for the most part, unfair and patently untrue.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 22:25:10
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| All generalizations are bad |
z455t |
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