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 Elminster Must Die---Hit or Miss? [Spoilers]
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  11:16:19  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
The Good Points:

Arclath and Amarune. They're two of the very few who were successfully portrayed like real people. Arclath's humor occasionally made me smile.

Alassra's torment. I was accustomed to seeing her blasting Red Wizards and countless insignificant foes. To see her totally helpless is a welcome change, albeit sad. That scene in the cave is really touching. Feeble and chained like a dog or a Thayan slave—not the Witch-Queen we're all used to see. Needless to say, she didn't deserve that.

Connection to various previous significant events. This is something I always look forward to when reading an Ed-penned Realms novel. I'm assured that history is never forgotten.

The last chapter. I expected it, though. We can't have an Elminster wandering the Realms as floating ashes. I understand Storm's sentimentality over the casting of the spell, as I too believe it's an evil thing to do without the host's consent. Robbing one of her freedom is in some ways worse than killing her.

The Epilogue. There are already a lot of hints in the first few chapters, so reading it actually happened is not much of a surprise. But a pleasant surprise, indeed it is. HER return, as I understand, is something most – if not all – Realms fans have always hoped and wished for. Now, if that voice is Cyric's or Shar's, remind me again not to read the next book.


The Why-on-earth-do-I-have-to-see-these? Points:

Un-motivating prologue. A book's prologue is supposed to motivate the reader to continue reading till the end. A teaser, in short. But this one's prologue is certainly the opposite of that. A band of cold-blooded sellswords going for a kill. Now that's really something new, eh?!

This book is supposed to herald a new chapter in El's looooong life. But where's the 'newness' in it when we still see his old foe wagging his rotting tail? El needs to use an insect repellent. The endless Elminster-Cockroach rivalry deserves not a hiatus, but an utter cessation. It's worse than the never-ending LOVE story of Lex and Superman. Manshoon should get a life. Oh, wait, maybe that's the problem: roaches don't have a life! At. All.

Too many nobles, too little purpose. I came to the point when I told myself they could all die for all I care! I now have two alternate titles for this book: The Cockroach Must Die! and Cormyr's Coxcombs Must Die!

Unnecessary verbiage. I understood and to some degree liked Ed's profusion of words in the previous Elminster books because it made perfect sense; it highlighted what needed focus and provided details to what might otherwise have been plainly boring scenes. However, in this book, I found the verbosity too much to bear. This isn't the kind of 'fat' I referred to in that thread/poll I started weeks ago. Effectively pruning this novel will undoubtedly make it just a hundred pages or less. I could live with that, (though I much prefer a better, more sensible 'fattening up').

Manshoon's ridiculous monologues. One is 'Emperor Manshoon.' Hah! Absolutely the worst Reamlsian joke ever told. Another is 'Elminster Aumar...you are going down' Feels like I'm watching a small-budget anime. Oh, there's more. But I don't want to flood this thread with all his farcical musings.

Mage Royal or Dolt Royal? Targrael's too easy way of freezing him (and his useless servitor) proved the latter.

Lack of clear climax. The story seems to follow a bland, flat plot. If the climax is El's encounter with and 'death' in the hands of the Manshoon-controlled beholder, then I don't know what else to call the other scenes.


MY Verdict:

Duh! Do I even have to say it? Apparently, the bad points far outweigh the good. So, it's definitely a MISS, for me.

Now, will I ever bother to read Bury Elminster Deep? My tentative answer is: I will have to wait and see. I can't afford to be a 'masochistic reader,' as I had almost become while reading this novel. However, there might be things I will find interesting in B.E.D.

You've heard my verdict loud and clear. What's yours?

Choices:

Hit
Miss
Somewhere in between
As if I care!

(Anonymous Vote)

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 06 Dec 2010 05:48:52

Brimstone
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USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  12:23:48  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a hit with me. I really enjoyed it. Live and let live.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  12:43:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

  • "Emperor Manshoon" has a really nice ring to it.
    Imagine all the lovely historical confusion once the Cloneshoons all race to paste officious roman numerals onto their self-proclaimed imperial titles.





  • Sorry, but I don't share your fondness of the Realms' Ultimate Roach. An interesting villain for me is one who is nearly impregnable, not someone you can blast and then return from the grave countless times. The latter is plain idiocy. Much like Feist's Leso Varen.

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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  12:50:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Manshoon XLVII would disagree.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  13:11:55  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Hah! He could disagree for all I care. I've got a very effective insect repellent I'd use forthwith should he be so foolish as to come near me.

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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  13:14:11  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I wonder who voted for "Somewhere in between."A guest?

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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
    7966 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  14:35:51  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Not I. I haven't read the book(s) yet.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  15:00:29  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Obviously, some people just want to vote and remain anonymous. I noticed 'Hit' now has 2.

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    Elfinblade
    Senior Scribe

    Norway
    377 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  15:47:46  Show Profile Send Elfinblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I voted somewhere in between. The book had some wonderful moments, and moments i did not care for as much. At the end of the book i rejoiced in seeing something i had hoped for for a long time, yet parts of the book sort of..did not do it for me personally. All in all, a decent enough FR novel, that i would recommend to others for the sheer tonnage of lore, if not for the plot.
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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  15:54:59  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Elfinblade

    I voted somewhere in between. The book had some wonderful moments, and moments i did not care for as much. At the end of the book i rejoiced in seeing something i had hoped for for a long time, yet parts of the book sort of..did not do it for me personally. All in all, a decent enough FR novel, that i would recommend to others for the sheer tonnage of lore, if not for the plot.



    Sorry, I just have to highlight that last part. As I mentioned above, the plot is really bland.I often hoped that Ed would surprise us sometimes, not only in providing juicy lore but tweaking his usual, rather formulaic plots. A twist or two might do the trick.

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    Erik Scott de Bie
    Forgotten Realms Author

    USA
    4598 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  16:09:58  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    For the record, I think it's unfair to come in and dismiss/criticize a novel you haven't read, much less dismiss/criticize an entire subgenre (i.e. FR fiction) based on a novel you haven't read.

    [quotation deleted]

    Cheers

    EDIT: Assertion retracted, so I'm deleting the excerpt of his post here quoted.

    Erik Scott de Bie

    'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

    Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

    Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 30 Nov 2010 07:06:00
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    Matt James
    Forgotten Realms Game Designer

    USA
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    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  16:40:04  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    You beat me to it, Erik.
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    Ayrik
    Great Reader

    Canada
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    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  16:41:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Ah, let me think about this more carefully for a little while, Erik. No insult was intended, and I apologize for my somewhat offensive choice of wording (obvious now), nonetheless I won't withdraw the statement.

    Incidentally, it turns out that I haven't yet read any books written by you. Realms of the Dead has (apparently) *finally* appeared at my Black Bonds; I avoided Ghostwalker because other books in the Fighters series (Son of Thunder and Bladesinger) were disappointing to me; and your other novels just don't happen to take place in parts of the Realms I normally like to read about.

    [/Ayrik]
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    Matt James
    Forgotten Realms Game Designer

    USA
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    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  16:49:13  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    It wasn't your wording that was offensive. You just took all of the Realms novels and dumped them into a melting pot. Considering there are several prominent Realms authors here, I thought your classification of their work was extremely demeaning. You seem to be indicating that the novel-lines are only constructed to support the D&D game??

    quote:
    Incidentally, it turns out that I haven't yet read any books written by you.


    This is where you break so many argument fallacies that offense can be the only intended conclusion. Please provide specific examples of your thesis, else it holds no grounds for your statement of the Realms novels.
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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  16:53:43  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

    I think it's unfair to come in and dismiss/criticize a novel you haven't read, much less dismiss/criticize an entire subgenre (i.e. FR fiction) based on a novel you haven't read.

    In re:
    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    [*]Consider Wizbro's apparent ideas about the Realms/D&D target audience/market.
    Script and action must appeal to the lowest denominator, that is, junior high school. Writing style is "hollywood comic book" (and no, I don't mean "graphic novel" because it's not that good) ... basically everything is divided into a series of "frames" wherein the bulk of each text box is described graphically and dialogue is deliberately concise and unsophisticated. The primary functional purpose of each frame is to describe a scene that provides continuity with the adjacent frames. Some cheap eye candy for interest (and really, what can be cheaper than words?) and reliably predictable characters (to provide an immersive illusion of feeling "smart" or "in control" when characters reassuringly act exactly the way the reader expects them to). A few oddball tidbits of new Realmslore and a handful of wonderful new items/spells are thrown in to each novel to ensure appeal to (and revenue from) D&D collectors and gamers. Meh.
    Or maybe you have actual examples?

    Maybe you might explain more? I mean, before I start feeling IMMENSELY insulted.

    Cheers



    Just as I suspected, Arik. An FR author or two would really react to that. I think that's too much of a generalization. I, too, would like to hear your examples. Take note, it's plural. You see, I write for YA, (though you wouldn't hear of me because my books are only published in the Philippines). And thankfully, no one has ever called my novels "some cheap eye candy for interest."

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    Markustay
    Realms Explorer extraordinaire

    USA
    15724 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  17:19:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Considering the immense success of the Harry Potter franchise - a franchise about Wizards and Dragons I might add - it is small wonder that Hasbro might want their authors to aim for the 'young adult' crowd. Billion-dollar pie is quite tasty, I hear.

    I know I sure as hell would if I were in charge. The phenomenal success of LotR and HP, and somehow D&D is still tanking... it makes little sense IMHO.

    Anyhow, not saying that's what Wizbro is doing - I haven't read the novel - but like I said, thats precisely the target I'd be aiming for if I were them.... Grognards are a dying breed.

    As for Ed's writing, I found I appreciated it far more once I became a fan of the 'greater Realms'. The Realms are like one of those TV shows you catch in re-runs, and wonder why you never watched it while it was still airing (in other words, its an 'acquired taste').

    You can never truly appreciate the 'ramblings' in Ed's books if you don't appreciate the Realms first.

    And I'm greatly looking forward to this novel.

    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


    Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2010 17:20:32
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    Erik Scott de Bie
    Forgotten Realms Author

    USA
    4598 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  17:20:48  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    What Matt said, which I'll say in my own words as well:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

    Ah, let me think about this more carefully for a little while, Erik. No insult was intended, and I apologize for my somewhat offensive choice of wording (obvious now), nonetheless I won't withdraw the statement.
    While I appreciate your earnest willingness not to offend me, it isn't a personal insult I'm taking. I'm offended for the reason that Matt said: that you lumped all Realms fiction into one narrow definition.

    I won't deny that some FR fiction over the years has been kind of railroady and very gamey as you describe (and if you don't like that, fine!), but I take umbrage with the notion that ALL Realms fiction is like that, or that Hasbro somehow inflicts a notion of fantasy writing on its authors.

    Just as one example off the top of my head, by all accounts, Paul S. Kemp discontinued his lucrative and successful run with WotC for such ethical reasons, and he is fortunately back and writing what he wants to write. That doesn't sound like WotC forcing a lesser style down its authors' throats to me.

    Sure, fantasy novels share a certain set of tropes and follow a standard skeleton course (and I'll gladly point out that your description sounds like it can apply, in some form or another, to ALL fantasy novels). But what unites the genre is fairly general and leaves lots of room for variety and innovation, which I think FR novels have in abundance.

    For better and worse, the FR line is one of tremendous variety and range, and trying to lump everything into a single definition (and a simplified, harsh one like that) is just erroneous.

    Have you read widely in the Realms? Because the differences between some authors' work are night-and-day. Not good-and-bad, necessarily, but very different.

    quote:
    Incidentally, it turns out that I haven't yet read any books written by you. Realms of the Dead has (apparently) *finally* appeared at my Black Bonds; I avoided Ghostwalker because other books in the Fighters series (Son of Thunder and Bladesinger) were disappointing to me; and your other novels just don't happen to take place in parts of the Realms I normally like to read about.
    Well, my story in Realms of the Dead is basically a romantic comedy (with ghouls), so I don't think that'll fit into your expected genre. Not that you shouldn't read it, which I totally think you should.

    If you ever do end up reading one of my novels (I recommend Ghostwalker, based on what you just said), do make sure to tell me what you think of it. Maybe it'll come off as what you think, or maybe not.

    Cheers


    P.S. Incidentally:

    quote:
    your other novels just don't happen to take place in parts of the Realms I normally like to read about.
    How do you even know where Depths of Madness takes place? Or do you make a habit of reading spoilers before you read a novel in question?

    Not that you should necessarily go with DoM--it sounds like you don't like close tie-ins to the game, and I'm of the belief that DoM is my most "D&Dish" novel.

    Erik Scott de Bie

    'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

    Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  17:31:21  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    You can never truly appreciate the 'ramblings' in Ed's books if you don't appreciate the Realms first.




    Doesn't apply to me. Sure, I appreciate the Realms. And sometimes I also appreciate the 'ramblings' in Ed's books---so long as they're sensible and really improve the story, as in the case of the previous Elminster books. But the ramblings at times become unbearable. This novel has glaring examples of that.

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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
    Moderator

    USA
    36779 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  18:24:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

  • "Emperor Manshoon" has a really nice ring to it.
    Imagine all the lovely historical confusion once the Cloneshoons all race to paste officious roman numerals onto their self-proclaimed imperial titles.





  • Sorry, but I don't share your fondness of the Realms' Ultimate Roach. An interesting villain for me is one who is nearly impregnable, not someone you can blast and then return from the grave countless times. The latter is plain idiocy. Much like Feist's Leso Varen.



    I go the other way, meself. To me, the nearly unkillable villain is pretty cliched. One that keeps coming back? That's a lot more interesting to me.

    And dismissing something as idiocy simply because it's not to your taste is not a good habit to have. It's insulting to those who disagree with you.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  18:33:54  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    quote:
    Originally posted by Arik

  • "Emperor Manshoon" has a really nice ring to it.
    Imagine all the lovely historical confusion once the Cloneshoons all race to paste officious roman numerals onto their self-proclaimed imperial titles.





  • Sorry, but I don't share your fondness of the Realms' Ultimate Roach. An interesting villain for me is one who is nearly impregnable, not someone you can blast and then return from the grave countless times. The latter is plain idiocy. Much like Feist's Leso Varen.



    I go the other way, meself. To me, the nearly unkillable villain is pretty cliched. One that keeps coming back? That's a lot more interesting to me.

    And dismissing something as idiocy simply because it's not to your taste is not a good habit to have. It's insulting to those who disagree with you.



    Really, now? Perhaps you should also remind those who said the Shadovar are a bunch of idiots, or something like that. It's not insulting to the persons, Wooly. What I despise are the characters, not the persons who happen to like them. How many times did I read rather harsh comments on the Shades without you or Sage reprimanding (or giving a friendly reminder to) those who said it? Why now? Anyway, I myself wasn't insulted by those Shade-poop words. As the adage goes, 'one's crap is another man's treasure.' And oh, if you think cockroach-like villains (those who keep coming back) are not cliched, think again. They have spread like a contagion in the realm of fantasy. Want examples? Lemme see...Valerian, Asankaru, Voldemort, Selene, The Dark, Leso Varen, Tezzeret, and many more which my brain refuses to remember because their mere existence "herald's men's rise to greatness."

    Every beginning has an end.

    Edited by - Dennis on 29 Nov 2010 19:05:18
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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
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    USA
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    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  19:00:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    Really, now? Perhaps you should also remind those who said the Shadovar are a bunch of idiots, or something like that. It's not insulting to the persons, Wooly. What I despise are the characters, not the persons who happen to like them. How many times did I read rather harsh comments on the Shades without you or Sage reprimanding (or giving a friendly reminder to) those who said it? Why now? Anyway, I myself wasn't insulted by those Shade-poop words. As the adage goes, 'one's crap is another man's treasure.'



    No, what you said was that concept A was interesting, concept B was idiocy. So if someone likes concept B, then that's insulting to them.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  19:09:13  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    Really, now? Perhaps you should also remind those who said the Shadovar are a bunch of idiots, or something like that. It's not insulting to the persons, Wooly. What I despise are the characters, not the persons who happen to like them. How many times did I read rather harsh comments on the Shades without you or Sage reprimanding (or giving a friendly reminder to) those who said it? Why now? Anyway, I myself wasn't insulted by those Shade-poop words. As the adage goes, 'one's crap is another man's treasure.'



    No, what you said was that concept A was interesting, concept B was idiocy. So if someone likes concept B, then that's insulting to them.



    So if someone compares Manshoon (who embodies the concept of villains always coming back from the grave) and Telamont (who embodies the concept of impregnability) and says that the cockroach is interesting while the Most High is an idiot, I should be insulted because I happen to like the latter? Just wonderful!

    Every beginning has an end.

    Edited by - Dennis on 29 Nov 2010 19:29:06
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    Wooly Rupert
    Master of Mischief
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    USA
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    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  19:53:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    Really, now? Perhaps you should also remind those who said the Shadovar are a bunch of idiots, or something like that. It's not insulting to the persons, Wooly. What I despise are the characters, not the persons who happen to like them. How many times did I read rather harsh comments on the Shades without you or Sage reprimanding (or giving a friendly reminder to) those who said it? Why now? Anyway, I myself wasn't insulted by those Shade-poop words. As the adage goes, 'one's crap is another man's treasure.'



    No, what you said was that concept A was interesting, concept B was idiocy. So if someone likes concept B, then that's insulting to them.



    So if someone compares Manshoon (who embodies the concept of villains always coming back from the grave) and Telamont (who embodies the concept of impregnability) and says that the cockroach is interesting while the Most High is an idiot, I should be insulted because I happen to like the latter? Just wonderful!



    No, because there's a difference between talking about a character or group, and talking about a concept. Even if a character embodies a concept, not liking the character does not necessarily mean not liking the concept.

    For example, one common trope is the farm boy with the special destiny who goes on to do many heroic things. I might not like a specific example of this trope, but it doesn't mean I dislike the trope itself.

    You didn't phrase it in terms of specific characters -- you phrased it to refer to the concepts themselves.

    Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  20:31:18  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    You didn't phrase it in terms of specific characters -- you phrased it to refer to the concepts themselves.



    Because to me they are one and the same. If you think otherwise, then it's not I who have a problem.

    And we've gone somewhat astray...

    Back to the topic, then:

    I forgot to include in the not so good points the nearly ubiquitous 'stlarn!' Expletives are fine. Hearing them so often used like a broken record is another story. It's indeed a relief that the second half of the book has a relatively minimum use of it.

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    Erik Scott de Bie
    Forgotten Realms Author

    USA
    4598 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  21:17:40  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly RupertYou didn't phrase it in terms of specific characters -- you phrased it to refer to the concepts themselves.

    Because to me they are one and the same. If you think otherwise, then it's not I who have a problem.
    Ok, if the rules of logic no longer apply to language, then we can't really communicate anymore.

    If I say I hate my office chair, that doesn't mean I hate all chairs, nor does it mean that I hate the CONCEPT of chairs.

    Just sayin'.

    Cheers

    Erik Scott de Bie

    'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

    Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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    Ashe Ravenheart
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    USA
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    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  21:37:59  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I voted "As if I care!".

    Although, not for the reasons you probably put it there. And as discussion has shown in this scroll, it comes down to preference. To paraphrase a Senator from the 90's "If you lock 15 gamers in a room, you'll get twenty opinions". To try and boil down everyone's take on the novel as "hit or miss" and then to try and couch that question with you're own opinion on the novel's good and bad points is a recipe for disaster. Is a "hit" someone that thinks the novel is terrific or someone that agrees with your assessment? Is it a "miss" based on sales performance or the amount of critics disapproving of the epilogue and the return of Mystra?

    I voted "As if I care" because liking a novel is based on my own personal preferences. And posts like this generally peeve me in much like the bloggers that rate their top 25 Fantasy novels of all time--and usually are rating George R. R. Martin as the greatest of all time because that's who they like right now. Meanwhile Tolkien's always listed as #2. (Incidentally, you look at similar lists and they'll have Anne McCaffrey as #1 in the seventies, Eddings as #1 in the eighties, Jordan as #1 in the nineties, etc., etc. and Tolkien's always #2 )

    I don't mind people discussing the novels, that's what we have the scrolls for in the Book Club section. But to "vote" on a novel's quality here is something I heartily disagree with.

    I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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    Markustay
    Realms Explorer extraordinaire

    USA
    15724 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  21:51:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    I hate the concept of chairs.


    "I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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    Ashe Ravenheart
    Great Reader

    USA
    3240 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  22:06:56  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    I hate the concept of chairs.



    You people and your sitting on the floors!

    I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  22:10:01  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

    I voted "As if I care!".

    Is a "hit" someone that thinks the novel is terrific or someone that agrees with your assessment? Is it a "miss" based on sales performance or the amount of critics disapproving of the epilogue and the return of Mystra?



    The fact that I didn't ask for specific reasons why one would vote it as hit or miss already speaks of my intention that it really DEPENDS on the reader. And if it appears like part of the reasons I mean is the sales, then you can forget it. How in this vast Multiverse would I know the sales of this novel when I know no one from WotC who could provide me that information, (not that I want to know)? If you're a little confused, perhaps these simple equations would help:

    hit= I like it so much.
    miss= I am very disappointed.
    somewhere in between= I can't decide exactly because the disappointing and interesting things are kinda of equal number or degree.
    as if I care= I have no plan to read it. At. All.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

    I don't mind people discussing the novels, that's what we have the scrolls for in the Book Club section. But to "vote" on a novel's quality here is something I heartily disagree with.



    Then why did you vote in the first place?!

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    Erik Scott de Bie
    Forgotten Realms Author

    USA
    4598 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  22:12:02  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    See Ashe's post. 'Nuff said.

    I think we should exercise some restraint on our reviewing here. I'm not talking about jeopardizing your freedom of speech, but if you're going to offer a serious opinion about something and want to be taken seriously, you moderate your tone to offer a serious review. If you like something, you say that you like it and you say why. If you dislike something, you say that you didn't like it, and you say why. And the phrases "XXX are stupidity" or "XXX is idiocy" or anything resembling a personal attack or a dismissal of a large body of work, rather than the specifics of a particular piece that you're reviewing DO NOT cross your keyboard.

    I'm not saying don't say those things, but if you do, you aren't writing an actual review or offering an opinion that others are under any obligation to take seriously. And you have made that decision--yielded credibility--entirely yourself.

    And now for something completely different--

    quote:
    Originally posted by Markustay

    I hate the concept of chairs.
    Ah, but does that mean you hate every chair you've ever encountered? Are there exceptions to your hatred of CHAIR?

    Cheers

    Erik Scott de Bie

    'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

    Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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    Dennis
    Great Reader

    9933 Posts

    Posted - 29 Nov 2010 :  22:12:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    quote:
    Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

    quote:
    Originally posted by dennis

    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly RupertYou didn't phrase it in terms of specific characters -- you phrased it to refer to the concepts themselves.

    Because to me they are one and the same. If you think otherwise, then it's not I who have a problem.
    Ok, if the rules of logic no longer apply to language, then we can't really communicate anymore.

    If I say I hate my office chair, that doesn't mean I hate all chairs, nor does it mean that I hate the CONCEPT of chairs.

    Just sayin'.

    Cheers




    To quote James Clemens, again: "Some things are best left ignored."

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