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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2012 :  06:55:36  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally I would have prefered Szass Tam killing Thrul as opposed to Mari Agneh. He did kill Druxus Rhym and and Thrul being a powerful wizard he could have killed Mari and then while still recuperating Tam pops in and kills him with no one being the wiser. That would have been a bit more plausible.
Tam after all displayed his skill at creating simulacrums of himself, he could have masqueraded around with no one suspecting him while perhaps hiding in the body of Tsagoth with the geas on the blood fiend as a sort of summoning. When Tasgoth scratched it away, Tam could pop out and do the deed.

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2012 :  02:36:38  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

I think Szass Tam being overthrown would be an interesting trilogy. (I've privately written and sketched out a story of the exiled and now expanded Red Wizards conspiring with neighboring nations to overthrow Szass Tam...) Although it seems like they wanted him to become like the guy from Mordor ruling over an evil land even as far back as Spellbound. Re-reading Spellbound it is obvious they intended for him to take over the land. I prefer the infighting Zulkirs, Tharchions, etc. because it leads to more role playing possibilities.


Meh. It is almost impossible with the Zulkirs gone. Nobody else cares enough about Thay to risk conflict with Szass Tam.

The only mages from neighboring nations powerful enough to be a threat would likely trust working with red Wizards about as much as Big Brother players trust Dr Will or Dan right now.

But hey, we already had that sort of thing. Velsharoon.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2012 :  02:41:14  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

Personally I would have prefered Szass Tam killing Thrul as opposed to Mari Agneh. He did kill Druxus Rhym and and Thrul being a powerful wizard he could have killed Mari and then while still recuperating Tam pops in and kills him with no one being the wiser. That would have been a bit more plausible.
Tam after all displayed his skill at creating simulacrums of himself, he could have masqueraded around with no one suspecting him while perhaps hiding in the body of Tsagoth with the geas on the blood fiend as a sort of summoning. When Tasgoth scratched it away, Tam could pop out and do the deed.


Well, the scene showcased what happens when a Wizard does not have his spell components. He still put up a hell of a fight, but he got arrogant, as he was known to be.

After rereading that scene, he did in fact teleport himself away. but only far enough to get his robe to fight. Had he just teleported to a safe location, he could have come back later. Then, after forcecaging her, he just walks out figuring he could deal with her later, conveniently forgetting she may be able to teleport out of it. Whoops.

Szass also probably had an easier time getting into an ally's sanctum than he would an enemy.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  09:10:13  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath

Personally I would have prefered Szass Tam killing Thrul as opposed to Mari Agneh.
As would I. Though at least, Druxus Rhym's assassination was handled rather well.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  09:16:55  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

I think Szass Tam being overthrown would be an interesting trilogy. (I've privately written and sketched out a story of the exiled and now expanded Red Wizards conspiring with neighboring nations to overthrow Szass Tam...) Although it seems like they wanted him to become like the guy from Mordor ruling over an evil land even as far back as Spellbound. Re-reading Spellbound it is obvious they intended for him to take over the land. I prefer the infighting Zulkirs, Tharchions, etc. because it leads to more role playing possibilities.

Meh. It is almost impossible with the Zulkirs gone.
Not quite. Richard himself said some of the zulkirs might still return.


quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Nobody else cares enough about Thay to risk conflict with Szass Tam.
Unless he annoys Telamont well enough. His Dread Ring in the Sword is surely getting unwanted attention from the Shadovar. One wrong move and he might see Shadovar armies ramming Thay's walls.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  09:22:19  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Szass also probably had an easier time getting into an ally's sanctum than he would an enemy.
The zulkirs almost always expect betrayal from their allies. I doubt any of them would give his ally easy access to his sanctum. Except, apparently, Yaphyll, who didn't even bother with wards around her tower.

Every beginning has an end.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  11:50:09  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

Unless he annoys Telamont well enough. His Dread Ring in the Sword is surely getting unwanted attention from the Shadovar. One wrong move and he might see Shadovar armies ramming Thay's walls.



The netherese already lay siege to a settlement in Thay.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  12:35:38  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Oh? Where exactly in Thay? What novel?

Every beginning has an end.
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe

Germany
479 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  17:13:40  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No Novel, Neverwinter Campaign Book. The city is Surcross.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  19:34:29  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

I think Szass Tam being overthrown would be an interesting trilogy. (I've privately written and sketched out a story of the exiled and now expanded Red Wizards conspiring with neighboring nations to overthrow Szass Tam...) Although it seems like they wanted him to become like the guy from Mordor ruling over an evil land even as far back as Spellbound. Re-reading Spellbound it is obvious they intended for him to take over the land. I prefer the infighting Zulkirs, Tharchions, etc. because it leads to more role playing possibilities.

Meh. It is almost impossible with the Zulkirs gone.
Not quite. Richard himself said some of the zulkirs might still return.


quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

Nobody else cares enough about Thay to risk conflict with Szass Tam.
Unless he annoys Telamont well enough. His Dread Ring in the Sword is surely getting unwanted attention from the Shadovar. One wrong move and he might see Shadovar armies ramming Thay's walls.


Well, I know the Shadovar have substantially multiplied their economic might in the past 100 years, but I do not think they are more than a match for Thay. Overall they are probably quite equal by now. Szass Tam's personal power seems to be higher than it had been before the spellplague(I see him as Telemont's equal), and I suspect he elevated Zulkir's to serve under him who no doubt could match a few of the princes.

The conflict on the sword coast seems to be minor in teh scheme of things. Szass Tam is probably working on a dozen different spots for his dread rings over the next 900 years. He is a patient Lich. The Netherese are looking for a lost Mythellar/Enclave. But it seems neither side felt the need to put their more competent servants into that area. If it was a large importance to the Shadovar, A prince, or a more prominent Shade like Leevoth would probably be in the area. Certainly Szass Tam has more efficient servants than Sylora Salm
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  20:34:22  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

There are many possibilities that their goals would clash... For one, Szass Tam may one day find a fallen Netherese enclave, build a Dread Ring around it, and use its mythallar to power the DR, instead of slaughtering villages to feed the people's souls to it. Imagine Telamont's reaction to that.

Every beginning has an end.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2012 :  23:25:20  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


There are many possibilities that their goals would clash... For one, Szass Tam may one day find a fallen Netherese enclave, build a Dread Ring around it, and use its mythallar to power the DR, instead of slaughtering villages to feed the people's souls to it. Imagine Telamont's reaction to that.



Well, I have often wondered why they never went to other sites of Mythellar's. Skullport or the Warlock's crypt. But knowing the power of Larloch seems like a quick deterrent. The Skulls? not so formidable. But then Khelben Arunsun and Halaster were close to home there before.

People of that magnitude tend to avoid each other though. It is not surprising that they would rather cross currents on another battlefield. Kind of like the Russians vs USA in vietnam.

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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2012 :  00:13:04  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


There are many possibilities that their goals would clash... For one, Szass Tam may one day find a fallen Netherese enclave, build a Dread Ring around it, and use its mythallar to power the DR, instead of slaughtering villages to feed the people's souls to it. Imagine Telamont's reaction to that.



Well, I have often wondered why they never went to other sites of Mythellar's. Skullport or the Warlock's crypt. But knowing the power of Larloch seems like a quick deterrent. The Skulls? not so formidable. But then Khelben Arunsun and Halaster were close to home there before.

People of that magnitude tend to avoid each other though. It is not surprising that they would rather cross currents on another battlefield. Kind of like the Russians vs USA in vietnam.





I would love to see a bit of resolution to certain characters.

For instance, Aumvor the undying has probably seen how Shade has been hoarding all things Netherese, including taking Ioulaum's apprentice. If he survived the Spellplague, would it not be prudent to throw in with another Lich? Even if Szass keeps the true nature of his dread rings secret from everyone(Which he probably would after Malark), he may seek out allies of the same weal.

We know Aumvor was watching them to see if he wanted to join them or oppose them, although they had the same goal. He might rethink things if he could not join on an equal basis with Telemont/Rivalen.

Or whatever happened to Shoon VII, who escaped into the body of a young Elf? Probably the worlds truly preeminent Necromancer. Those are two powerful dudes that lack the economic and military might of a nation.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2012 :  00:37:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Aumvor didn't really strike me as the expansionist type. For all we know, he's pretty much happy getting fat in his own domain, much as Samas Kul would rather eat a roasted pig all day than deal with everyday politics of Thay.

Every beginning has an end.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
801 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2012 :  01:00:37  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis


Aumvor didn't really strike me as the expansionist type. For all we know, he's pretty much happy getting fat in his own domain, much as Samas Kul would rather eat a roasted pig all day than deal with everyday politics of Thay.


I dunno. He is a man who dreams of restoring the ancient glory of old netheril, and is working towards that goal. he holds many of the artifacts the Shades want(He watched as they went to places he already plundered)

The sourcebook confirms that a worry is once they learn of him and his possessions, they may hunt him without mercy until they find him.

His epic Phylacteries might keep him from being killed permanently, but if they trapped him....

Edited by - Firestorm on 26 Sep 2012 01:03:04
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Mateops
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2012 :  15:50:29  Show Profile Send Mateops a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

[quote]Originally posted by Arianthus Deszault

2.0, I was getting a little tired of the Red Wizards always trying to "invade" Aglarond and Rasheman.




So now let them fail elsewhere?
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2012 :  03:56:05  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mateops

quote:
Originally posted by Arianthus Deszault

2.0, I was getting a little tired of the Red Wizards always trying to "invade" Aglarond and Rasheman.
So now let them fail elsewhere?
This "elsewhere" being Nevewinter? Well, I couldn't say I like how RAS represented Thay and Szass Tam in his series.

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis

There are many possibilities that their goals would clash... For one, Szass Tam may one day find a fallen Netherese enclave, build a Dread Ring around it, and use its mythallar to power the DR, instead of slaughtering villages to feed the people's souls to it. Imagine Telamont's reaction to that.
Well, I have often wondered why they never went to other sites of Mythellar's. Skullport or the Warlock's crypt. But knowing the power of Larloch seems like a quick deterrent. The Skulls? not so formidable. But then Khelben Arunsun and Halaster were close to home there before.
You're right about Warlock's Crypt. I seriously doubt Telamont would dare disturb Larloch.

As for Skullport, I myself am wondering why indeed they haven't tried to "reclaim" it. I put my conjectures/thoughts in here.

Every beginning has an end.
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe

USA
109 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2012 :  11:58:59  Show Profile  Send Neo2151 an AOL message Send Neo2151 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Szass Tam is the Justin Beiber of Realms villains.

There. I said it!

No really, I just can't stand him. He's so freakin' popular because he's a lich necromancer. No other reason. "He's so awesome and powerful and..." Bah, he's not even all that powerful compared to the other lich archmages of the Realms!

*remembers to breathe*

Anyway(), I personally didn't like the series, just because I have a hard time believing Szass would actually ruin everything he built just to sit in some limelight. The guy already controlled Thay, why does he need to get rid of the other Zulkirs?

So count me in the group of scribes who wants to see Thay return to a Zulkir-ruled nation instead of a carbon-copy Necropolis. I got enough of that in WoW, thanks.

"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."

-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire

Edited by - Neo2151 on 30 Sep 2012 12:00:01
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2012 :  14:57:55  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151

Szass Tam is the Justin Beiber of Realms villains.

There. I said it!

No really, I just can't stand him. He's so freakin' popular because he's a lich necromancer. No other reason. "He's so awesome and powerful and..." Bah, he's not even all that powerful compared to the other lich archmages of the Realms!

*remembers to breathe*

Anyway(), I personally didn't like the series, just because I have a hard time believing Szass would actually ruin everything he built just to sit in some limelight. The guy already controlled Thay, why does he need to get rid of the other Zulkirs?

So count me in the group of scribes who wants to see Thay return to a Zulkir-ruled nation instead of a carbon-copy Necropolis. I got enough of that in WoW, thanks.


Blasphemer .
Casts Meteor Swarm.
Just kidding, but i have to disagree with you. Before the events of the Haunted lands trilogy Tam was simply the ruler and not even the absolute ruler of just one ,albeit powerful, kingdom amongst many.
Now with his new plan utilizing the dread rings he can ascend to the status of a true omnipotent God and create a universe of his own.
Ruler of kingdom or Omnipotent Godhood , you choose.
As for your point of him not being the greatest or most powerful of Lich Archwizards I have to agree with you. Personally I always preferred Larloch who has much more personality than Tam but I wont go so far as to compare him to Justin Beiber.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2012 :  22:00:55  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Hush, hush, you two. Do you really want to attract the attention of the crazy fangirls of Justin Bieber?

Every beginning has an end.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2012 :  23:11:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Worse... put Justin Beiber in the next Twilight movie.

Question/Concept:
If they were to focus on various factions vying for control of a new Thay (which I personally think would be very interesting), why not three factions? You could have "Tammy on The Mount", a more traditional group of Red Wizards trying to return Thay to its old ways (and setup), and a group outside of Thay - say in Altumbel, or Unther - that is working toward bringing their own 'Thaymart' brand (3e) of Thay back to their homeland?

Or even more intricate - have at least two outsider-factions both working toward the goal of creating a 'new Thay', but unwilling to cooperate with each other... although they both realize they may eventually have to in order to remove Szass Tam and the entrenched Red Wizards from Thay (which would mean the Altumbel and Unther factions would have to come to a begrudging compromise, which could lead to the 'old school' faction already in Thay having to deal with Tam himself, and also have to make compromises).

I just think if we are going to go the 'civil ware' route, it might be fun to create several different groups; more gaming/story opportunities there, me thinks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2012 23:14:41
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2012 :  23:46:58  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

That's a good concept. The more the merrier, I suppose. Each of the two other factions should have their own Zulkirate, preferably occupied by competent Red Wizards, and not the likes of Zola.

It would be nigh impossible to set foot on Thayan soil without dying instantly as long as Szass Tam remains in control, so I would suggest one of the two vying factions (or both) get help from other realms, like Rashemen, Aglarond, or even the ones in the Sword Coast, through bribery or other means. They may also seek a temporary alliance with the Eminence of Aurant, with the promise of giving Lod a substantial portion of the rural areas of Thay.

Every beginning has an end.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2012 :  00:46:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking more along the lines of Szass Tam 'withdrawing' from the world. He pretty-much just ignores everbody unless they bother him (so if you enter the highest plateau, you are probably dead meat).

So the entrenched Thayans would be trying to bring the 'ruined' kingdom back to some semblance of what it was. They would have their hands full just taking on Tam's old minions and all those undead (and perhaps if they ever proved too successful, then maybe Tam would step-in).

I was thinking that this could even work well for their proposed 'support for all eras' plan. What if the Szas Tam (on Thaymount) represented the 4e version of Thay. Then the Tharchions within The country could represent the 1e Thay. The guys in Unther would be the expansionist 2e Red Wizards, and the ones in Altumbel could be the 'Thaymart forever' 3e bunch.

And yeah, each group (aside from Tam himself) would elect their own Zulkirs. Szass Tam might even be amused by all of this (until it no longer amused him, in which case he'd just sweep them all aside). Or, conversely, maybe Tam is busy elsewhere, and everyone is just afraid of his legacy (so no one goes up to Thaymount... which is just one massive dungeon at this point). What folks perceive as the "mysterious actions of Szass Tam" could really just be some sporadic, random things done by fiends or powerful undead he left behind.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Oct 2012 00:47:23
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2012 :  01:22:47  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Sounds interesting. Though the problem is, upon pondering on RAS's move to have Szass Tam build a Dread Ring in Neverwinter, I am beginning to doubt that Szass Tam truly thinks that Thay becomes unfit for the Ritual of Unmaking after the Dread Rings were sabotaged by the zulkirs and Malark. My guess is that he's creating DR's outside Thay as decoys, while he 'cleanses' Thay's land of the residual effects of the destroyed DR's to make it fit again for his purpose. If this were the case, then he'd never allow any outsiders or banished Red Wizards set foot on Thay ever again...

In other words, the most plausible scenario for your suggestion to actually happen is if and when Szass Tam is making the Dread Rings in the Sword Coast for real, and not as a distraction.

Every beginning has an end.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2012 :  02:15:17  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Szass Tam's actions are left open to speculation in the Neverwinter book thingy. It says what he is doing and why, its not mysterious.
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