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 Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
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Ayrik
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Canada
6263 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2010 :  05:40:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But Thay isn't wiped out. It's just ... improved.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2010 :  09:00:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch

1.0. I don't like "wiped out nations". Not realistic enough for me.




I wouldn't call it 'wiped out.' Otherwise, we wouldn't have seen anything left of it except ruins. Szass simply made a little upgrade, though much to most Thayans' dislike.

Every beginning has an end.
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Ayrik
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Posted - 23 Nov 2010 :  09:09:01  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All that red cloth was a little gauche and starting to clash anyhow; Szass's stylish earthy grey tones and bone motif have classic appeal for all but the most jaded of modern tastes.

I much preferred the old "mysterious" flavour of sinister paranoid scheming Red Wizards only rarely seen skulking around outside the borders of Thay. The newer "friendly" version of greedy paranoid scheming Red Wizards running Red-Mart magic shoppes is just, well, unacceptable. Zakharans would do that, Halruaa maybe, perhaps even Shade, but not Thay. It's just inappropriate.

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
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Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  05:25:06  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I concur. Slavery as a trade was already fine. It speaks of the organization's 'personality.' For one of the most sinister organizations in the Realms, having shops for all sorts of baubles doesn't sound right at all.

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Ayrik
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Canada
6263 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  05:56:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems entirely inconsistent with some of the attitudes I've read into Red Wizards as a group
- Red Wizards absolutely hoard useful magic and will go to any length to assure they can have it all (or that nobody else can)
- Red Wizards view magic itself as the supreme accomplishment; manipulation through spells, even researching spells and crafting items of their own, are more sophisticated, elegant, accomplished, and "proper" activities than dirty mercantile copper-haggling.
- Red Wizards are the elite of Thay, itself the elite of the world. Foreigners are at best threatening to Thay, at worst a source of slaves and resources, in no case ever treated as equals or with fairness.
- Red Wizards as a group are too arrogant, greedy, and impatient to use such a subtle deceptive plot to gain power for Thay. Individual Reds (or factions of same) might employ isolated agencies to run Red-Marts, but would use utmost care to ensure nobody else could discover Red Wizard involvement.

[/Ayrik]
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
204 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  14:45:59  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Red Wizards in my campaign are much as they were in 3.5, though with a faction of psionicists attempting to gain recognition along with the schools of magic. It's causing quite a stir in Thay, so the zulkirs (including Tam) have their hands full dealing with new rivals and the sudden rise in the worship of Auppenser (leaving Kossuth's clergy in Thay more than a little grumpy).

"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage
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Brimstone
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USA
2904 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  17:34:25  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX

The Red Wizards in my campaign are much as they were in 3.5, though with a faction of psionicists attempting to gain recognition along with the schools of magic. It's causing quite a stir in Thay, so the zulkirs (including Tam) have their hands full dealing with new rivals and the sudden rise in the worship of Auppenser (leaving Kossuth's clergy in Thay more than a little grumpy).


That sounds really cool.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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sleyvas
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5803 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  18:48:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

It seems entirely inconsistent with some of the attitudes I've read into Red Wizards as a group
- Red Wizards absolutely hoard useful magic and will go to any length to assure they can have it all (or that nobody else can)
- Red Wizards view magic itself as the supreme accomplishment; manipulation through spells, even researching spells and crafting items of their own, are more sophisticated, elegant, accomplished, and "proper" activities than dirty mercantile copper-haggling.
- Red Wizards are the elite of Thay, itself the elite of the world. Foreigners are at best threatening to Thay, at worst a source of slaves and resources, in no case ever treated as equals or with fairness.
- Red Wizards as a group are too arrogant, greedy, and impatient to use such a subtle deceptive plot to gain power for Thay. Individual Reds (or factions of same) might employ isolated agencies to run Red-Marts, but would use utmost care to ensure nobody else could discover Red Wizard involvement.




Everyone screams about this.... but what other nation was being given vast swaths of territory in foreign countries that are in essence embassies within which the local laws don't exist? Seriously, if they had to sell some trinket items that they stick their lesser apprentices creating (and thereby keep them as lesser apprentices)... and in return open up traffic for say getting in close with the local thieve's guild and offering up the service of whisking away "threats" that they may have (via the clandestine slave market).... maybe they even talk the local constabulary out of killing all those goblins that they just captured in return for letting them have them as slaves to work Thay's mines... all for selling what to the red wizards are minor baubles that will not significantly empower their enemy. Oh, and if they do make and sell a powerful magic item to some people.... well, they know exactly who has it and what it does, so that they can send some other folks to retrieve it and any other items the person had, which they might turn around and offer up for sale. After all, how many rings of protection +1 or +2 do they really need once they outfit themselves with a ring of protection +3.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30204 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  19:03:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Arik

It seems entirely inconsistent with some of the attitudes I've read into Red Wizards as a group
- Red Wizards absolutely hoard useful magic and will go to any length to assure they can have it all (or that nobody else can)
- Red Wizards view magic itself as the supreme accomplishment; manipulation through spells, even researching spells and crafting items of their own, are more sophisticated, elegant, accomplished, and "proper" activities than dirty mercantile copper-haggling.
- Red Wizards are the elite of Thay, itself the elite of the world. Foreigners are at best threatening to Thay, at worst a source of slaves and resources, in no case ever treated as equals or with fairness.
- Red Wizards as a group are too arrogant, greedy, and impatient to use such a subtle deceptive plot to gain power for Thay. Individual Reds (or factions of same) might employ isolated agencies to run Red-Marts, but would use utmost care to ensure nobody else could discover Red Wizard involvement.




Everyone screams about this.... but what other nation was being given vast swaths of territory in foreign countries that are in essence embassies within which the local laws don't exist? Seriously, if they had to sell some trinket items that they stick their lesser apprentices creating (and thereby keep them as lesser apprentices)... and in return open up traffic for say getting in close with the local thieve's guild and offering up the service of whisking away "threats" that they may have (via the clandestine slave market).... maybe they even talk the local constabulary out of killing all those goblins that they just captured in return for letting them have them as slaves to work Thay's mines... all for selling what to the red wizards are minor baubles that will not significantly empower their enemy. Oh, and if they do make and sell a powerful magic item to some people.... well, they know exactly who has it and what it does, so that they can send some other folks to retrieve it and any other items the person had, which they might turn around and offer up for sale. After all, how many rings of protection +1 or +2 do they really need once they outfit themselves with a ring of protection +3.



I've also theorized that Thay could have been playing some other games with their sales -- like making addictive potions, or building overrides/kill switches into some of the magic items they crafted.

And one of the key features of the Red Wal-Marts is that it gives Thay a chance to appear non-threatening and to get a toe-hold into the area. Those two things allow them to expand their influence, which is the overall goal of the Reds. That's why I like the idea -- if sneaking in doesn't work, get your victim to let you in the front door.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Nov 2010 19:03:54
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Ayrik
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Canada
6263 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  21:32:59  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that the Red-Mart strategy has great potential. And invites plenty of storytelling about Red Wizards. And is of course firmly established in post-2E canon. Oddly, all under the leadership of much the same Zulkir administration who would've violently opposed such an idea a few decades earlier.

I'm just saying that I disagree with the whole concept. On a personal level. I can't see Thayan Reds (Wizards, not wines) being welcomed in Faerūn; embassies of Thay? What're you smoking? Not saying Red-Marts aren't valid - just saying that I personally don't like 'em at all. New Thay just isn't what Old Thay aspired to be.

Back to the rigged magic items concept ... it's obvious. All the items crafted by Reds share some particular component (physical or mystical) which links them all together under the will of some wizard/being/artifact. They all serve as ritual links which allows the Reds to autoscry on demand; valuable magical toys are typically carried at all times and brought within secured and scry-warded areas. If some kind of Red Remote kill/override signal is sent it would likely involve all such magical items at once. Maybe there's lots of non-Red magics as well, sort of like a used car sales lot, enough to defray suspicions, add variety, and appeal to all budgets.

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
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Posted - 24 Nov 2010 :  23:59:19  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've also theorized that Thay could have been playing some other games with their sales -- like making addictive potions, or building overrides/kill switches into some of the magic items they crafted.
I really like this. Though I think I'd tinker with it just a little, and suggest that there's only certain foreign markets targeted for such activity. Downtrodden or politically ineffectual governments/societies for example. There's no use trying to hook a magically stable and politically capable city. Because if they discover the Thayvian tinkering, it could cause problems.

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Ayrik
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Canada
6263 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2010 :  00:41:25  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Activation of the remote might only function within a certain range, be it a few city blocks or miles or just all of Cormyr. It might already be done all the time without anyone's knowledge (perhaps not even the Red salesmen).

In fact, it need not even be something the Reds do knowingly or by choice. Somebody big like Eltab (whatever) might be using Reds as pawns in his own inscrutable games. Decades of magical suggestion and stroking greedy Red lust for magical power (and a lot of gold) might provide the handle by which Reds are subtly influenced towards serving this goal, seemingly with a plan they devised themselves.

Reds have long been quite skilled at competent paranoia, treachery, and deception; detecting their "traps" wouldn't be impossible but would be awfully difficult. Vangey might warn his purples to avoid depending on such items, the Chosen might not wish to suffer Thay's wrath (or play at their own games by knowing their enemy doesn't know that they know, etc), traditional enemies of the Reds (like the Harpers) might have insufficient mastery of magic to detect such skilled trapwork (outside of certain powerful individuals, some of whom would be viewed as grudge-bearing eccentrics with a penchant for complex conspiracy theories).

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2010 :  00:51:46  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've also theorized that Thay could have been playing some other games with their sales -- like making addictive potions, or building overrides/kill switches into some of the magic items they crafted.

And one of the key features of the Red Wal-Marts is that it gives Thay a chance to appear non-threatening and to get a toe-hold into the area. Those two things allow them to expand their influence, which is the overall goal of the Reds. That's why I like the idea -- if sneaking in doesn't work, get your victim to let you in the front door.



Game or not, it's still 'out of character.' There's no need to appear non-threatening as the Reds could send out spies or magically cloaked agents to any area where they wish to establish an invisible control or want to utterly destroy. It's just a waste of time and resources; and it contradicts their 'badass' reputation. Leave the Wal-Marts to the Sembians.

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2010 :  01:35:19  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

So long as Thay remains, I'll always be happy. And though I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a new Zulkirate being established [and I do have some ideas on that], I'm just as interested in seeing how Thay under the skeletal thumb of Tam, progresses.




A random rereading brought this to my attention. Care to share what those ideas are?

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The Sage
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Posted - 25 Nov 2010 :  02:28:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

Game or not, it's still 'out of character.' There's no need to appear non-threatening as the Reds could send out spies or magically cloaked agents to any area where they wish to establish an invisible control or want to utterly destroy. It's just a waste of time and resources; and it contradicts their 'badass' reputation. Leave the Wal-Marts to the Sembians.
It's not really "out-of-character," though. We know Thayvians have long supported [though perhaps not actively condoned] the sale of potions and such. So Wooly's idea would just be an extension of prior trade initiatives that Thay already employed. So long as the magical items are not of military usefulness, I don't really see a problem here.

Besides, appearing non-threatening and open for increased trade might make some of the more potential "less-stable" trading partners [that I was speaking about earlier] susceptible to Thay's "open market" foreign trading policy.

After all, I've long suspected that some portion of the Red-Mart franshise would willingly adhere to the 76th Ferengi Rule of Acquisition:- "Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies." And in that confusion, is the opportunity for both profit and subtle political manipulation.
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

So long as Thay remains, I'll always be happy. And though I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a new Zulkirate being established [and I do have some ideas on that], I'm just as interested in seeing how Thay under the skeletal thumb of Tam, progresses.


A random rereading brought this to my attention. Care to share what those ideas are?
Hmmm. I suppose I can do that. Though I'll have to leave out some of the more campaign-specific material, since some of my players do tend to visit Candlekeep on occasion.

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 25 Nov 2010 :  17:19:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

I agree that the Red-Mart strategy has great potential. And invites plenty of storytelling about Red Wizards. And is of course firmly established in post-2E canon. Oddly, all under the leadership of much the same Zulkir administration who would've violently opposed such an idea a few decades earlier.

I'm just saying that I disagree with the whole concept. On a personal level. I can't see Thayan Reds (Wizards, not wines) being welcomed in Faerūn; embassies of Thay? What're you smoking? Not saying Red-Marts aren't valid - just saying that I personally don't like 'em at all. New Thay just isn't what Old Thay aspired to be.

Back to the rigged magic items concept ... it's obvious. All the items crafted by Reds share some particular component (physical or mystical) which links them all together under the will of some wizard/being/artifact. They all serve as ritual links which allows the Reds to autoscry on demand; valuable magical toys are typically carried at all times and brought within secured and scry-warded areas. If some kind of Red Remote kill/override signal is sent it would likely involve all such magical items at once. Maybe there's lots of non-Red magics as well, sort of like a used car sales lot, enough to defray suspicions, add variety, and appeal to all budgets.



I can't say I see them strongly welcomed in other countries either, but then I wouldn't think our government would allow certain people to get past security checks for faith reasons while examining 3 year olds. Therefore, sometimes governments do things that the average citizen would quite simply balk at. As to them being embassies.. they effectively are embassies if the laws of their homeland are the laws in place on said ground.
Now, how prolific would they be? I could see where some countries might allow a small enclave to be established, even if its just to reap the non-magical benefits of an enclave. Lets face it, Thay was a nasty evil place filled with undead that were... tending gardens... and with wizards that were controlling weather to... properly grow crops. This is all documented since the creation of Thay. They are a veritable breadbasket of food (god, sadly, so often I see commonalities between Thay and the US, but the countries are so different too). Thay would also gladly be an exporter of basic things like wood, since they've cleared out many of their forests. In addition, if a barbaric horde were going to attack a town, and the Thayans offered to "clear up the problem so long as no questions are asked about what happened to the barbarians".... well, many governors might not balk too much about this either. Thus, an enclave might offer a measure of security to a community, meanwhile they take on those attackers and turn them into slaves. The enclaves should be seen as a much more subtle means of expanding their influence. While they may put traps into magic items, it would be a rare thing lest it be discovered, and the majority of their magic items are probably lesser items either created in training their apprentices or items gotten through either internal fights or external fights that they quite simply have no use for (so what better to do with them than sell them, make a good profit, and move on).
As to the various Zulkirs being happy with the enclaves... truly I don't think they all would be. The problem is that some schools are inclined to draw more students just based on their percieved power, and the enclaves would offer a bit of security that might help bolster numbers for those schools of magic. In fact, I don't see the school of necromancy liking them much at all, because demand for their spells and such will generally be shunned. However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
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Posted - 25 Nov 2010 :  23:19:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your examples are valid, sleyvas, though I'm hesitant to draw comparisons between Thay (and her neighbours) and the complex sociopolitical considerations of certain RL nations, at least while I'm online. Most of what you say is about how foreign nations react to Thay, not Thay itself. I note that there are many nations in our world which could serve as rich breadbaskets but are instead torn by eternal conflict.

I would compare (pre-undead) Thay to our Ukraine instead (avoiding controversial comparisons with our superpowers and war-torn middle-east nations) -
These nations are both land corridors with terrain that is conveniently exploited by waves of invaders (barbarian hordes) who seek to plunder the riches of the "civilized" European/Faerūnian heartlands. Both nations have abundant natural resources and are capable of sustaining bountiful crops; yet while nature has been most generous to them, history most definitely has not. Both nations have a historical theme of endless oppression and exploitation by totalitarian governments (and the endless struggle against them), along with a history of endless conflict against neighbouring nations and ethnic persecution of their populations.

Thayan embassaries are certainly not impossible. Some places (like Baldur's Gate, Tantras, and the Moonsea) would seem almost eager to establish magic-trading relations with Thay and her Red Wizards. I have more trouble accepting Reds openly conducting their suspicious business in places like Cormyr and the Dales - much smaller places than our RL paranoid supernations, much easier to police consistently with an iron gauntlet.

Slightly OT -
Playing under 2E-ish rules, my Reds have access to "minor" schools of magic (Divination like everybody else; plus Illusion, Invocation, Necromancy, and Elemental Fire), basically allowing them to cast many spells (up to 3rd level) that their specializations would otherwise prohibit. I haven't quite figured out how to translate this into 3E or later class mechanics. Any suggestions?

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2010 :  03:13:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.



Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'

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Ayrik
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Posted - 26 Nov 2010 :  03:29:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, there's always all sorts of franchising for Thay collectibles. Very lucrative, collectors simply must have one of everything, y'know ... maybe the "traps" are impossible to detect because they require a resonant interaction between multiple items? Sort of a decentralized dweomer distributed across different items?

[/Ayrik]
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Dennis
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Posted - 26 Nov 2010 :  03:42:16  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Collectibles? Hmm... I don't know. Sounds like enhanced Wal-Marts---which basically means the same thing.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Nov 2010 :  03:47:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.



Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'



If you're hidden, you can be discovered. If you can convince someone to let you in willingly, you don't need to waste all that energy hiding. That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 26 Nov 2010 :  04:31:45  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your logic is true, Wooly. It just doesn't seem to agree with the earlier-established Red qualities of respecting nothing more than magical potency. The slithering serpent or trojan horse approach is undeniably effective, and adds that much more villainous twist to your dagger when you do finally act upon your treacherous plans ... it just doesn't seem as easily "in character" as Reds simply blasting down the gates with fire and sending legions of undead/demon weapons platforms into your cities instead. The strong take what the weak cannot defend, magical mastery is the ultimate measure of strength.

Why the sudden change in tactics? Was Thay feeling a little lonely? Did the game designers feel that Thay needed to be drawn out a little more? How would you encourage all of your divisive scheming Red factions into cooperating in such a grandoise plot?

[/Ayrik]
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The Sage
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Posted - 26 Nov 2010 :  04:34:20  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.



Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'



If you're hidden, you can be discovered. If you can convince someone to let you in willingly, you don't need to waste all that energy hiding. That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.

Whereupon the notion of "hiding in plain sight" certainly has considerable meaning.

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The Sage
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis

But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.

You're running that risk either way -- whether you're nefariously hiding your secrets behind master spies and illusionists, or acting openly and attempting to lull gullible markets into a false sense of economic support. Discovery in either case results in problems for the foreign ambitions of these Red Wizards.

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Dennis
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Posted - 26 Nov 2010 :  04:43:09  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

However, transmuters, enchanters, illusionists, diviners, and abjurers would probably find this a great way to expand the influence of their school against the other more combat oriented Zulkirs of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation.



Possibly. But then again, why need some silly Wal-Marts when they could attain their goals by using spies or magically hidden agents, which would make more sense as such rather speaks of their 'character.'



That leaves you more energy for your nefarious plots -- which, if discovered, can be more readily covered up/explained if your presence is open and welcomed. Being openly admitted to a city gives you certain advantages you wouldn't have as a hidden interloper, as well -- like the ability to act more openly.



But once discovered, you wouldn't be welcomed at all. Truly a waste of time and resources.

Every beginning has an end.
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