| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 03:42:08
|
That would be a problem in the last Zulkirate, because Yaphyll, the then Zulkir of Divination, and therefore the most powerful in that school of magic, was very dependent on anyone who could help her (at the very least) survive the 'game of the zulkirs.' I lost count on how many times she betrayed her fellow zulkirs. Once she sided with the 'Alliance,' then with Tam, then back with the Alliance again, then with Tam once more...until she finally died. Changing of alliance is not unheard of among the self-serving Red Wizards, but that's just one of her problems. The primal one is: SHE DOES NOT HAVE ANY AMBITION at all, beside keeping her position.
Lallara or Dmitra would be a better replacement of Szass Tam. Lallara's iron-fist rule would ensure that Thay remains 'whole.' While Dmitra's keen mind, commendable patience, and competent spies would ensure much the same. |
Every beginning has an end. |
 |
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 04:54:59
|
| I wasn't talking about specific characters. I don't know much about the zulkirs, as I don't pay much attention to Thay to begin with. I was simply suggesting that a less obvious and clicheed type of ruler would be much more interesting. In any case, who says it would have to be her? They could have had someone else take over the position at some point, who had more ambition and who was clever enough to truly be a threat. I find that too many "baddies" are simply self-serving toadies to their superiors who yo-yo back and forth between sides to seek the best advantage without ever having the guts or brains to truly be threatening in their own rights. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 05:25:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
In any case, who says it would have to be her? They could have had someone else take over the position at some point, who had more ambition and who was clever enough to truly be a threat.
Yaphyll's personality, I assume, interests no Realmsian nor fan. It's also difficult - a huge challenge - to come up with a non-cliched but effective villain, as all the cliched had been proven 'good' to the taste of most readers, with some exceptions of course. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 22:03:53
|
| Thay 1.0 |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 23:12:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ugh, personally, I think they should have done something different with that realm. Undead Necromancers with vast undead armies are just too clichee in fantasy now-a-days, IMO. Why couldn't it be a powerful Diviner with a network of spies and a bunch of permanet wizard-eyes to keep the common folk in line- a la "1984"? "Big Brother is WATCHING you!"
Because, despite the many 'modern' concepts we see in the Realms, it is still a classical fantasy setting.
As opposed to Eberron, where your idea would blend-in perfectly.
As much as I hate to say it, FR is built on tropes, and the 'Dark Lord' concept is certainly one of the oldest and best-established in fantasy. Not saying I like it - just saying I understand it.
The new Realms are especially built on that 'cinematic' tropey feel (which did well in Eberron). The idea is to get in, blast some baddies, grab the treasure, and get out.
Very classic gaming for a classic-style setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2010 23:13:27 |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 23:39:59
|
| I agree about conjuration and evocation, those are more traditional Thayan schools, should be on the same level or more influential than necromancy. And with the enclaves used in the civil war that seems to have no end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 03:54:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Ugh, personally, I think they should have done something different with that realm. Undead Necromancers with vast undead armies are just too clichee in fantasy now-a-days, IMO. Why couldn't it be a powerful Diviner with a network of spies and a bunch of permanet wizard-eyes to keep the common folk in line- a la "1984"? "Big Brother is WATCHING you!"
As much as I hate to say it, FR is built on tropes, and the 'Dark Lord' concept is certainly one of the oldest and best-established in fantasy. Not saying I like it - just saying I understand it.
The new Realms are especially built on that 'cinematic' tropey feel (which did well in Eberron). The idea is to get in, blast some baddies, grab the treasure, and get out.
It doesn't bother me, so long as I still see some sense in it, and as long as I am entertained. Besides, isn't the latter our primal reason for reading?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
danbuter
Seeker
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 08:46:13
|
| IMC, Szass Tamm is still one of many zulkirs. This war you speak of never happened. |
Nothing beats the gray box!
Dan |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 09:03:23
|
Well, that's in your world. In the Realms, the war DID happen.  I don't dislike the war, but I surely don't like some its repercussions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 19:07:17
|
Okay, for some reason while I was taking a... break... I remembered why I refused to read The Haunted Lands, even though initially I had looked forward to it: Szass Tam was casting spells immediately following the Spellplague.
So I need ALL designers and/or authors to get together and vote on it, and tell me which didn't happen - the Spellplague, or the events in those novels.
Because they both can't be canon.
You know whats even more powerful then Mythals? Author Caveat. The plague seems to bend right around them whenever necessary. 
Not a rant - I just wanted to give a reason why I didn't read a series I had wanted to read when I heard about it. You CANNOT have your cake and eat it too; either 1e/2e/3e Vancian magic stopped working, or it continued to function - which is it? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2010 19:09:36 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:44:41
|
Hmm, I won't try to encourage you to read the trilogy when it already appears like your mind is pretty much set in not reading it at all, in the same way you'll never be able to encourage me (should you find the need to do so) to read elfy, Manshoony, or knighty novels that you happen to like. But I want to emphasize something about Szass Tam being able to cast spells immediately following the Spellplague. Yes, he did, but at the cost of the lives of several of his lackeys. All of his most powerful spells were obliterated from his mind when the SP hit Thay, leaving him nearly helpless. That's why he bargained with Bane. To summon Bane (or maybe it was just his avatar), he sacrificed twenty (or was it thirty? I can't recall exactly) necromancers not only as offering to Bane, but also to power the ritual that would summon the Dark Lord. Had he been at his best condition, he wouldn't have needed to waste so many lives just to parley with a deity.
Most of the spells that he was able to cast since the summoning were all due to Bane's 'shared' power. It took him a century to regain his magical might. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 01:56:53
|
| Ugh, yet another reason to hate the "insanely powerful Nec" trope. Bargaining with dark gods seems to be a standard practice for them- is it in their contract? Clause: "...must perform at least one ritual sacrifice to bargain with an evil power each year to maintain standing as "Big Nasty-Bad" of the region..." So he uses up a sizable portion of his resources to keep his own personal power, in the hopes of later taking over. I'd like to see a Transmuter at the helm, to be honest. They have FAR more interesting possibilities. Imagine the havoc one could create with an Aliens-style breeding experiment..... Controlled, of course- because you don't unleash stuff on people without having some sort of fail-safe. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:14:45
|
Well, it surely is a cliche. But how Richard delivered it was fun to read.
Delving into the very mind of Szass was also a unique experience. Who would have believed he was still capable of 'trust'?! He certainly hadn't learned a lesson in Red Ambition. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 16 Nov 2010 02:16:23 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 02:39:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hmm, I won't try to encourage you to read the trilogy when it already appears like your mind is pretty much set in not reading it at all, in the same way you'll never be able to encourage me (should you find the need to do so) to read elfy, Manshoony, or knighty novels that you happen to like.
HATE Elves & Harpers, and I already had a Manshoon when I ran GH - I just called him Victor Von Doom (Yeah, real original, I know). 
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
But I want to emphasize something about Szass Tam being able to cast spells immediately following the Spellplague. Yes, he did, but at the cost of the lives of several of his lackeys. All of his most powerful spells were obliterated from his mind when the SP hit Thay, leaving him nearly helpless. That's why he bargained with Bane. To summon Bane (or maybe it was just his avatar), he sacrificed twenty (or was it thirty? I can't recall exactly) necromancers not only as offering to Bane, but also to power the ritual that would summon the Dark Lord. Had he been at his best condition, he wouldn't have needed to waste so many lives just to parley with a deity.
Most of the spells that he was able to cast since the summoning were all due to Bane's 'shared' power. It took him a century to regain his magical might.
You may have just talked me into reading the series, Dennis. I seem to have been mislead by those who read it right away. 
My other reason for not reading it - that it was 4e (at least after Book I) - has since been nullified by a brilliant ploy on Rich Baker and WotC's part.
They gave me Swordmage for FREE.
Bastards... that's just not playing fair. 
And ya' know, after you've read one, there's really no point in 'sticking to your guns'. I'm an 'all or nothing' kinda guy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 02:42:50 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2010 : 03:07:46
|
| Ah, are you implying you'll read the HL trilogy if someone gives you for FREE a copy of it, or of book 1 at least? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 19:11:43
|
They took an environment that had all kinds of potential and turned it basically into a hackneyed cliche found in almost every other world. The red wizards were interesting... they controlled weather, grew crops, engaged in slave trade, engaged in magical item trade, worked as magical assassins for hire, fought amongst themselves for position, and governed in a truly unique and interesting manner. Szass Tam's Thay could have EASILY have been done somewhere else in the realms. What would have been better is if they HAD done that.
For instance, what if Velsharoon had lost his divinity because of the spellplague and had been forced to return to the world, inhabiting for instance one of Mellifleur's phylacteries buried in the plains of purple dust? What if in returning to the world he sought to get for himself a powerbase by creating a kingdom of his own? He could have easily conquered some of the kingdoms in the southeast of Faerun (I forget the names from having been gone so long, but Durpar and Estagund ring a bell). He could have then rescued the demi-lich who was one of Thay's first Zulkir's (and who would thereby know Velsharoon since Velsharoon was around when Thay was formed). Velsharoon and this demi-lich, and maybe the death knights who were watching the dracolich that never dies near Unther might form an undead kingdom. This undead kingdom would have a hatred of Thay because A) Velsharoon was an outcast B) the demi-lich was a cast down Zulkir. Ripe for plots between Tam and Velsharoon (Tam wanting to seize Vel's phylactery to use in some powerful ritual or somesuch, Velsharoon because he's been a renegade red wizard for centuries), and possibly some of the Zulkirs might help Velsharoon just to keep Tam at bay. Have some of Thay's own necromancers leave to go to Velsharoon's kingdom, and you've really got something interesting (i.e. Thayan secrets migrating to an enemy kingdom, etc...). Throw in that Mulhorand exists smack in the middle of the two kingdoms, and it would have been really interesting.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 00:20:15
|
| That's interesting. Though I don't really care about Velsharoon. Any significant old zulkirs to take over the nation are just fine. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 03:42:14
|
| I haven't seen much use for Velsharoon either, other than inscribing a "cool" deity name on your necromancer's character sheet instead of a "wimpy" and vaguely unmanly one like Mystra. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 18:34:37
|
1.0. I don't like "wiped out nations". Not realistic enough for me.
|
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 05:40:53
|
| But Thay isn't wiped out. It's just ... improved. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:00:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arioch
1.0. I don't like "wiped out nations". Not realistic enough for me.
I wouldn't call it 'wiped out.' Otherwise, we wouldn't have seen anything left of it except ruins. Szass simply made a little upgrade, though much to most Thayans' dislike. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:09:01
|
All that red cloth was a little gauche and starting to clash anyhow; Szass's stylish earthy grey tones and bone motif have classic appeal for all but the most jaded of modern tastes.
I much preferred the old "mysterious" flavour of sinister paranoid scheming Red Wizards only rarely seen skulking around outside the borders of Thay. The newer "friendly" version of greedy paranoid scheming Red Wizards running Red-Mart magic shoppes is just, well, unacceptable. Zakharans would do that, Halruaa maybe, perhaps even Shade, but not Thay. It's just inappropriate. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 05:25:06
|
| I concur. Slavery as a trade was already fine. It speaks of the organization's 'personality.' For one of the most sinister organizations in the Realms, having shops for all sorts of baubles doesn't sound right at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 05:56:59
|
It seems entirely inconsistent with some of the attitudes I've read into Red Wizards as a group
- Red Wizards absolutely hoard useful magic and will go to any length to assure they can have it all (or that nobody else can)
- Red Wizards view magic itself as the supreme accomplishment; manipulation through spells, even researching spells and crafting items of their own, are more sophisticated, elegant, accomplished, and "proper" activities than dirty mercantile copper-haggling.
- Red Wizards are the elite of Thay, itself the elite of the world. Foreigners are at best threatening to Thay, at worst a source of slaves and resources, in no case ever treated as equals or with fairness.
- Red Wizards as a group are too arrogant, greedy, and impatient to use such a subtle deceptive plot to gain power for Thay. Individual Reds (or factions of same) might employ isolated agencies to run Red-Marts, but would use utmost care to ensure nobody else could discover Red Wizard involvement. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 14:45:59
|
| The Red Wizards in my campaign are much as they were in 3.5, though with a faction of psionicists attempting to gain recognition along with the schools of magic. It's causing quite a stir in Thay, so the zulkirs (including Tam) have their hands full dealing with new rivals and the sudden rise in the worship of Auppenser (leaving Kossuth's clergy in Thay more than a little grumpy). |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 17:34:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
The Red Wizards in my campaign are much as they were in 3.5, though with a faction of psionicists attempting to gain recognition along with the schools of magic. It's causing quite a stir in Thay, so the zulkirs (including Tam) have their hands full dealing with new rivals and the sudden rise in the worship of Auppenser (leaving Kossuth's clergy in Thay more than a little grumpy).
That sounds really cool. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 18:48:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It seems entirely inconsistent with some of the attitudes I've read into Red Wizards as a group
- Red Wizards absolutely hoard useful magic and will go to any length to assure they can have it all (or that nobody else can)
- Red Wizards view magic itself as the supreme accomplishment; manipulation through spells, even researching spells and crafting items of their own, are more sophisticated, elegant, accomplished, and "proper" activities than dirty mercantile copper-haggling.
- Red Wizards are the elite of Thay, itself the elite of the world. Foreigners are at best threatening to Thay, at worst a source of slaves and resources, in no case ever treated as equals or with fairness.
- Red Wizards as a group are too arrogant, greedy, and impatient to use such a subtle deceptive plot to gain power for Thay. Individual Reds (or factions of same) might employ isolated agencies to run Red-Marts, but would use utmost care to ensure nobody else could discover Red Wizard involvement.
Everyone screams about this.... but what other nation was being given vast swaths of territory in foreign countries that are in essence embassies within which the local laws don't exist? Seriously, if they had to sell some trinket items that they stick their lesser apprentices creating (and thereby keep them as lesser apprentices)... and in return open up traffic for say getting in close with the local thieve's guild and offering up the service of whisking away "threats" that they may have (via the clandestine slave market).... maybe they even talk the local constabulary out of killing all those goblins that they just captured in return for letting them have them as slaves to work Thay's mines... all for selling what to the red wizards are minor baubles that will not significantly empower their enemy. Oh, and if they do make and sell a powerful magic item to some people.... well, they know exactly who has it and what it does, so that they can send some other folks to retrieve it and any other items the person had, which they might turn around and offer up for sale. After all, how many rings of protection +1 or +2 do they really need once they outfit themselves with a ring of protection +3. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 19:03:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It seems entirely inconsistent with some of the attitudes I've read into Red Wizards as a group
- Red Wizards absolutely hoard useful magic and will go to any length to assure they can have it all (or that nobody else can)
- Red Wizards view magic itself as the supreme accomplishment; manipulation through spells, even researching spells and crafting items of their own, are more sophisticated, elegant, accomplished, and "proper" activities than dirty mercantile copper-haggling.
- Red Wizards are the elite of Thay, itself the elite of the world. Foreigners are at best threatening to Thay, at worst a source of slaves and resources, in no case ever treated as equals or with fairness.
- Red Wizards as a group are too arrogant, greedy, and impatient to use such a subtle deceptive plot to gain power for Thay. Individual Reds (or factions of same) might employ isolated agencies to run Red-Marts, but would use utmost care to ensure nobody else could discover Red Wizard involvement.
Everyone screams about this.... but what other nation was being given vast swaths of territory in foreign countries that are in essence embassies within which the local laws don't exist? Seriously, if they had to sell some trinket items that they stick their lesser apprentices creating (and thereby keep them as lesser apprentices)... and in return open up traffic for say getting in close with the local thieve's guild and offering up the service of whisking away "threats" that they may have (via the clandestine slave market).... maybe they even talk the local constabulary out of killing all those goblins that they just captured in return for letting them have them as slaves to work Thay's mines... all for selling what to the red wizards are minor baubles that will not significantly empower their enemy. Oh, and if they do make and sell a powerful magic item to some people.... well, they know exactly who has it and what it does, so that they can send some other folks to retrieve it and any other items the person had, which they might turn around and offer up for sale. After all, how many rings of protection +1 or +2 do they really need once they outfit themselves with a ring of protection +3.
I've also theorized that Thay could have been playing some other games with their sales -- like making addictive potions, or building overrides/kill switches into some of the magic items they crafted.
And one of the key features of the Red Wal-Marts is that it gives Thay a chance to appear non-threatening and to get a toe-hold into the area. Those two things allow them to expand their influence, which is the overall goal of the Reds. That's why I like the idea -- if sneaking in doesn't work, get your victim to let you in the front door.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Nov 2010 19:03:54 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 21:32:59
|
I agree that the Red-Mart strategy has great potential. And invites plenty of storytelling about Red Wizards. And is of course firmly established in post-2E canon. Oddly, all under the leadership of much the same Zulkir administration who would've violently opposed such an idea a few decades earlier.
I'm just saying that I disagree with the whole concept. On a personal level. I can't see Thayan Reds (Wizards, not wines) being welcomed in Faerūn; embassies of Thay? What're you smoking? Not saying Red-Marts aren't valid - just saying that I personally don't like 'em at all. New Thay just isn't what Old Thay aspired to be.
Back to the rigged magic items concept ... it's obvious. All the items crafted by Reds share some particular component (physical or mystical) which links them all together under the will of some wizard/being/artifact. They all serve as ritual links which allows the Reds to autoscry on demand; valuable magical toys are typically carried at all times and brought within secured and scry-warded areas. If some kind of Red Remote kill/override signal is sent it would likely involve all such magical items at once. Maybe there's lots of non-Red magics as well, sort of like a used car sales lot, enough to defray suspicions, add variety, and appeal to all budgets. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
