Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 9

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2010 :  22:47:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly's model works for me, as does anyone else's wherein Szass Tam hasn't finished yet. A finshed plot-hook is a useless plot-hook, IMHO.

I actually think Larloch is trying to become Vecna (if he isn't already).

quote:
Originally posted by dennis

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

1385, huh?

That doesn't work for me.



Well, most of the action happened during 1385 till 1478. But the trilogy starts during 1375 DR, Year of the Risen Elfkin, when Druxus Rhym, the then Zulkir of Transmutation, was murdered in his own chamber.
I don't know the specifics - I avoided learning about that trilogy in-case I read it.

I do know some uber-ritual was involved that changed everything - that is what occurred in 1385? I may be able to still work within the constraints of that - it would be best for my game if the Enclaves only recently broke with Thay (placing them in an 'every man for himelf' situation). Lots of potential there.

If I go that route, I may want to just steal Eberron's Mourneland (which may be exactly what WotC did). I need more 'strangeness' and less plain undead: Undead I can do anywhere.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Nov 2010 22:47:40
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2010 :  05:05:42  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The ritual was done in 1478. And it failed. Thanks to the zulkirs and the Brotherhood of the Griffon.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2010 :  19:33:22  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Szass Tam off the throne, a land ruled by a lich necromancer, how original, it was in the 80s

Schools of evocation and conjurations should be the most powerful

z455t
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2010 :  23:14:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Dennis - I actually did a little 4e research for myself last night. I found it odd that Szass was defeated by other evil people - were there any 'good guys' in those novels?

1478, huh? That works... that works perfectly......

Anyhow, I thought the ritual had been successful, so I guess I should find out the facts first before deciding things.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2010 23:16:13
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  01:26:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Schools of evocation and conjurations should be the most powerful



There's no such thing as the most powerful school of magic. It all depends on the level of power an archmage has achieved. For instance, when two archmages from the school of conjuration and ajuration are of the same power level, no matter how many demons the conjurer summons against the abjurer, he won't be able to breach her defenses. That's basically the reason no sane zulkir would dare challenge another zulkir in direct combat.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thanks Dennis - I actually did a little 4e research for myself last night. I found it odd that Szass was defeated by other evil people - were there any 'good guys' in those novels?

Anyhow, I thought the ritual had been successful, so I guess I should find out the facts first before deciding things.



I don't think 'defeated' is the right term for it. The zulkirs were able to 'disrupt' the ritual by destroying one Dread Ring, but they never got to 'defeat' or vanquish Szass Tam, nor reclaim Thay. It's like a win-win situation actually. The zulkirs stopped Tam from ascending, while Tam succeeded in conquering Thay. One may also wonder how Szass managed to single-handedly 'slay' all the zulkirs, while he admitted to himself in one of their meetings that though he's more powerful than any single one of them, he wouldn't dare fight ALL of them. I can only speculate: perhaps that little 'spark' of power Bane gave him was not yet depleted when he faced his foes in the 'final battle.'

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  03:05:39  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ugh, personally, I think they should have done something different with that realm. Undead Necromancers with vast undead armies are just too clichee in fantasy now-a-days, IMO. Why couldn't it be a powerful Diviner with a network of spies and a bunch of permanet wizard-eyes to keep the common folk in line- a la "1984"? "Big Brother is WATCHING you!"

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  03:42:08  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would be a problem in the last Zulkirate, because Yaphyll, the then Zulkir of Divination, and therefore the most powerful in that school of magic, was very dependent on anyone who could help her (at the very least) survive the 'game of the zulkirs.' I lost count on how many times she betrayed her fellow zulkirs. Once she sided with the 'Alliance,' then with Tam, then back with the Alliance again, then with Tam once more...until she finally died. Changing of alliance is not unheard of among the self-serving Red Wizards, but that's just one of her problems. The primal one is: SHE DOES NOT HAVE ANY AMBITION at all, beside keeping her position.

Lallara or Dmitra would be a better replacement of Szass Tam. Lallara's iron-fist rule would ensure that Thay remains 'whole.' While Dmitra's keen mind, commendable patience, and competent spies would ensure much the same.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  04:54:59  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wasn't talking about specific characters. I don't know much about the zulkirs, as I don't pay much attention to Thay to begin with. I was simply suggesting that a less obvious and clicheed type of ruler would be much more interesting. In any case, who says it would have to be her? They could have had someone else take over the position at some point, who had more ambition and who was clever enough to truly be a threat. I find that too many "baddies" are simply self-serving toadies to their superiors who yo-yo back and forth between sides to seek the best advantage without ever having the guts or brains to truly be threatening in their own rights.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  05:25:43  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

In any case, who says it would have to be her? They could have had someone else take over the position at some point, who had more ambition and who was clever enough to truly be a threat.



Yaphyll's personality, I assume, interests no Realmsian nor fan. It's also difficult - a huge challenge - to come up with a non-cliched but effective villain, as all the cliched had been proven 'good' to the taste of most readers, with some exceptions of course.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
569 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  22:03:53  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thay 1.0

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  23:12:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Ugh, personally, I think they should have done something different with that realm. Undead Necromancers with vast undead armies are just too clichee in fantasy now-a-days, IMO. Why couldn't it be a powerful Diviner with a network of spies and a bunch of permanet wizard-eyes to keep the common folk in line- a la "1984"? "Big Brother is WATCHING you!"
Because, despite the many 'modern' concepts we see in the Realms, it is still a classical fantasy setting.

As opposed to Eberron, where your idea would blend-in perfectly.

As much as I hate to say it, FR is built on tropes, and the 'Dark Lord' concept is certainly one of the oldest and best-established in fantasy. Not saying I like it - just saying I understand it.

The new Realms are especially built on that 'cinematic' tropey feel (which did well in Eberron). The idea is to get in, blast some baddies, grab the treasure, and get out.

Very classic gaming for a classic-style setting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2010 23:13:27
Go to Top of Page

Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 14 Nov 2010 :  23:39:59  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree about conjuration and evocation, those are more traditional Thayan schools, should be on the same level or more influential than necromancy. And with the enclaves used in the civil war that seems to have no end.
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  03:54:27  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Ugh, personally, I think they should have done something different with that realm. Undead Necromancers with vast undead armies are just too clichee in fantasy now-a-days, IMO. Why couldn't it be a powerful Diviner with a network of spies and a bunch of permanet wizard-eyes to keep the common folk in line- a la "1984"? "Big Brother is WATCHING you!"


As much as I hate to say it, FR is built on tropes, and the 'Dark Lord' concept is certainly one of the oldest and best-established in fantasy. Not saying I like it - just saying I understand it.

The new Realms are especially built on that 'cinematic' tropey feel (which did well in Eberron). The idea is to get in, blast some baddies, grab the treasure, and get out.




It doesn't bother me, so long as I still see some sense in it, and as long as I am entertained. Besides, isn't the latter our primal reason for reading?!

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

danbuter
Seeker

USA
74 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  08:46:13  Show Profile  Visit danbuter's Homepage Send danbuter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMC, Szass Tamm is still one of many zulkirs. This war you speak of never happened.

Nothing beats the gray box!
Dan
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  09:03:23  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that's in your world. In the Realms, the war DID happen. I don't dislike the war, but I surely don't like some its repercussions.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2010 :  19:07:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, for some reason while I was taking a... break... I remembered why I refused to read The Haunted Lands, even though initially I had looked forward to it: Szass Tam was casting spells immediately following the Spellplague.

So I need ALL designers and/or authors to get together and vote on it, and tell me which didn't happen - the Spellplague, or the events in those novels.

Because they both can't be canon.

You know whats even more powerful then Mythals? Author Caveat. The plague seems to bend right around them whenever necessary.

Not a rant - I just wanted to give a reason why I didn't read a series I had wanted to read when I heard about it. You CANNOT have your cake and eat it too; either 1e/2e/3e Vancian magic stopped working, or it continued to function - which is it?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Nov 2010 19:09:36
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  01:44:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, I won't try to encourage you to read the trilogy when it already appears like your mind is pretty much set in not reading it at all, in the same way you'll never be able to encourage me (should you find the need to do so) to read elfy, Manshoony, or knighty novels that you happen to like. But I want to emphasize something about Szass Tam being able to cast spells immediately following the Spellplague. Yes, he did, but at the cost of the lives of several of his lackeys. All of his most powerful spells were obliterated from his mind when the SP hit Thay, leaving him nearly helpless. That's why he bargained with Bane. To summon Bane (or maybe it was just his avatar), he sacrificed twenty (or was it thirty? I can't recall exactly) necromancers not only as offering to Bane, but also to power the ritual that would summon the Dark Lord. Had he been at his best condition, he wouldn't have needed to waste so many lives just to parley with a deity.

Most of the spells that he was able to cast since the summoning were all due to Bane's 'shared' power. It took him a century to regain his magical might.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  01:56:53  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ugh, yet another reason to hate the "insanely powerful Nec" trope. Bargaining with dark gods seems to be a standard practice for them- is it in their contract? Clause: "...must perform at least one ritual sacrifice to bargain with an evil power each year to maintain standing as "Big Nasty-Bad" of the region..." So he uses up a sizable portion of his resources to keep his own personal power, in the hopes of later taking over. I'd like to see a Transmuter at the helm, to be honest. They have FAR more interesting possibilities. Imagine the havoc one could create with an Aliens-style breeding experiment..... Controlled, of course- because you don't unleash stuff on people without having some sort of fail-safe.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  02:14:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it surely is a cliche. But how Richard delivered it was fun to read.

Delving into the very mind of Szass was also a unique experience. Who would have believed he was still capable of 'trust'?! He certainly hadn't learned a lesson in Red Ambition.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 16 Nov 2010 02:16:23
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  02:39:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

Hmm, I won't try to encourage you to read the trilogy when it already appears like your mind is pretty much set in not reading it at all, in the same way you'll never be able to encourage me (should you find the need to do so) to read elfy, Manshoony, or knighty novels that you happen to like.
HATE Elves & Harpers, and I already had a Manshoon when I ran GH - I just called him Victor Von Doom (Yeah, real original, I know).

quote:
Originally posted by dennis

But I want to emphasize something about Szass Tam being able to cast spells immediately following the Spellplague. Yes, he did, but at the cost of the lives of several of his lackeys. All of his most powerful spells were obliterated from his mind when the SP hit Thay, leaving him nearly helpless. That's why he bargained with Bane. To summon Bane (or maybe it was just his avatar), he sacrificed twenty (or was it thirty? I can't recall exactly) necromancers not only as offering to Bane, but also to power the ritual that would summon the Dark Lord. Had he been at his best condition, he wouldn't have needed to waste so many lives just to parley with a deity.

Most of the spells that he was able to cast since the summoning were all due to Bane's 'shared' power. It took him a century to regain his magical might.
You may have just talked me into reading the series, Dennis. I seem to have been mislead by those who read it right away.

My other reason for not reading it - that it was 4e (at least after Book I) - has since been nullified by a brilliant ploy on Rich Baker and WotC's part.

They gave me Swordmage for FREE.

Bastards... that's just not playing fair.

And ya' know, after you've read one, there's really no point in 'sticking to your guns'. I'm an 'all or nothing' kinda guy.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2010 02:42:50
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2010 :  03:07:46  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, are you implying you'll read the HL trilogy if someone gives you for FREE a copy of it, or of book 1 at least?

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5803 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2010 :  19:11:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They took an environment that had all kinds of potential and turned it basically into a hackneyed cliche found in almost every other world. The red wizards were interesting... they controlled weather, grew crops, engaged in slave trade, engaged in magical item trade, worked as magical assassins for hire, fought amongst themselves for position, and governed in a truly unique and interesting manner. Szass Tam's Thay could have EASILY have been done somewhere else in the realms. What would have been better is if they HAD done that.
For instance, what if Velsharoon had lost his divinity because of the spellplague and had been forced to return to the world, inhabiting for instance one of Mellifleur's phylacteries buried in the plains of purple dust? What if in returning to the world he sought to get for himself a powerbase by creating a kingdom of his own? He could have easily conquered some of the kingdoms in the southeast of Faerun (I forget the names from having been gone so long, but Durpar and Estagund ring a bell). He could have then rescued the demi-lich who was one of Thay's first Zulkir's (and who would thereby know Velsharoon since Velsharoon was around when Thay was formed). Velsharoon and this demi-lich, and maybe the death knights who were watching the dracolich that never dies near Unther might form an undead kingdom. This undead kingdom would have a hatred of Thay because A) Velsharoon was an outcast B) the demi-lich was a cast down Zulkir. Ripe for plots between Tam and Velsharoon (Tam wanting to seize Vel's phylactery to use in some powerful ritual or somesuch, Velsharoon because he's been a renegade red wizard for centuries), and possibly some of the Zulkirs might help Velsharoon just to keep Tam at bay. Have some of Thay's own necromancers leave to go to Velsharoon's kingdom, and you've really got something interesting (i.e. Thayan secrets migrating to an enemy kingdom, etc...). Throw in that Mulhorand exists smack in the middle of the two kingdoms, and it would have been really interesting.

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2010 :  00:20:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's interesting. Though I don't really care about Velsharoon. Any significant old zulkirs to take over the nation are just fine.

Every beginning has an end.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6263 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2010 :  03:42:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't seen much use for Velsharoon either, other than inscribing a "cool" deity name on your necromancer's character sheet instead of a "wimpy" and vaguely unmanly one like Mystra.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Arioch
Learned Scribe

Italy
222 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2010 :  18:34:37  Show Profile  Visit Arioch's Homepage Send Arioch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1.0. I don't like "wiped out nations". Not realistic enough for me.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 9 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000