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 Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
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Dennis
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Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  11:36:40  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:

I love the Haunted Lands trilogy. Everything in it is sans flaws from characters, to conflict, to plot. But being a fan of the Red Wizards and Thay, I can't help but want to bring the old Thay back. I know Szass Tam, after centuries of careful and patient scheming, deserves where he is now. But at the cost of destroying or 'corrupting' the realm? I'm not so sure he should remain where he is. I learned (from some who read Gauntlgrym) that after his disastrous failure in Unholy, he's building another set of the Dread Rings. Which could be sign enough that he's to remain sole ruler of Thay. Though I still hope for some significant changes to happen...

What do you think? Do you like the present Thay? Do you want to bring the zulkirs back? Or do you want to have a 'newer' Thay?


Brief Descriptions of the Choices:

Thay 1.0 Bring the zulkirs back ---those who possibly survived the War (Nevron, Lauzoril, and Lallara) and some of their predecessors (from the first Zulkirate and onwards) who vanished without trace.

Thay 2.0 I love the current Thay. Szass Tam deserves his throne. It doesn't matter that the land is blighted. It is a simple manifestation that its overlord is an undead.

Thay 2.5 Let Szass Tam rule. But the blighted state of the land should be at a minimum. His undead servants should still be strategically deployed in various cities but should mostly occupy the underground, and he must have more 'live' minions.

Thay 3.0 It's time for a new Zulkirate. Let the Red Wizards of ALL schools of magic rise and form a new set of Zulkirs to rule their realm.


Note on 'Thay 2.5': I know it kinda sounds absurd for a Lord of the Undead to have more 'live' servants than undead ones. But remember that to be Thay's ruler is not his true goal, nor is to fill it with undead denizens. His servants are just tools; so it doesn't matter if they're live or not. It's easier for him to have undead lackeys, I know, but it's not impossible for him to have far too many 'live' servants either, who are more mobile and more intelligent, (the last bit is debatable, though, for he's got a few exceptionally intelligent undead servitors, Xingax being a good example).

Choices:

Thay 1.0
Thay 2.0
Thay 2.5
Thay 3.0

(Anonymous Vote)

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 09 Nov 2010 11:45:22

Alisttair
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Canada
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Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  12:47:04  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage  Click to see Alisttair's MSN Messenger address Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoyed how it was with the Zulkirs, but a land full of Undead ruled by a Lich is great. I voted 2.0 but could have almost as easily voted 1.0
Maybe split the land in two and have both....

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Dennis
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Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  12:52:05  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, splitting the land in two...that's something worth considering...

Every beginning has an end.
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Tren of Twilight Tower
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51 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  13:38:31  Show Profile  Visit Tren of Twilight Tower's Homepage Send Tren of Twilight Tower a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Choices under one and/or three "work for me". Let undead rule some other realm. Voted one. Thay under foot of "traditional" Red Wizard caste.

Tren
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Acolyte Thirteen
Learned Scribe

93 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  14:20:08  Show Profile  Visit Acolyte Thirteen's Homepage Send Acolyte Thirteen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dennis, at the end of "Haunted Lands" (I've not yet read it, but spoilers don't spoil anything for me...) What is the ratio of Unliving to Living beings in Thay?

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  14:40:01  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you read it. Anyway, to your question, Richard didn't mention any estimation on how many live beings survived. But there are quite A LOT that died, and MORE undead remained. Also, most of the land was so blighted that only fools would dare stay. My own estimate of the population would be 70% undead, 30% live.

Every beginning has an end.
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GRYPHON
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USA
520 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  15:51:36  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thay 1.0...
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Ruul
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USA
64 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  18:15:50  Show Profile  Visit Ruul's Homepage  Send Ruul an AOL message Send Ruul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2.0 forever!
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Arianthus Deszault
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Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  18:31:34  Show Profile  Visit Arianthus Deszault's Homepage  Send Arianthus Deszault an AOL message Send Arianthus Deszault a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2.0, I was getting a little tired of the Red Wizards always trying to "invade" Aglarond and Rasheman. I think it was a good move to change up Thay.
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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  18:37:45  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arianthus Deszault

2.0, I was getting a little tired of the Red Wizards always trying to "invade" Aglarond and Rasheman.




On this I partially concur. I'm tired of them trying. But I don't want them to give up either. I want them to succeed. Knowing Szass Tam's ultimate goal, I doubt it could ever happen. It's easier to erect the Dread Rings in virtually unprotected realms than Aglarond or Rashemen.

Every beginning has an end.
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Alystra Illianniis
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USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  19:25:10  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Meh, I voted to bring it back as it was, but personally, I couldn't care less. Never had much interest in the Red Wizards, anyway. I prefer the doings up and down the Sword Coast, and in the North. I stay away from Thay for the most part- as any SANE person would, lol!

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  19:33:41  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

I stay away from Thay for the most part- as any SANE person would, lol!



Then I must be really INSANE!

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  19:35:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is completely bizarre that you started this thread today. I was going to start my own and this was just one of the issues I was going to cover.

I chose 1.0, but its not entirely accurate.

Late last night I was figuring out a lot of what I want to do in my 4e FR campaign. Turns out, a lot of things are much better game-wise for me in the new edition (and NO, that doesn't mean i like that they nuked the realms, it just means I can look beyond that and see the positives).

I was reading Corsair again last night, and I suppose thats what got me going down this track now. I LIKE that Zhentil Keep is a ruin again (they should have never rebuilt it the first time, but thats old news). Not that I minded the Zhents - I NEVER represented them as 'Keystone Cops' (of course we only heard about their failures... because they got away with all the other stuff).

Anyhow, I would have never sent a party to Zhentil Keep before, but I would now. The same could be said for Waterdeep (I like its grungier attitude now), or any of a dozen locales that were altered.

Unfortunately Thay is a HUGE exception; I don't know why the designers did it. If it was because of redundancy then why destroy BOTH high-magical kingdoms? I can understand getting rid of Halruaa - it was a bit too much like Eberron (or rather, Eberron is a bit too much like everything else... but I digress). But why get rid of Thay?

I find it an unusable mess now - I run fairly low-level games, so of what use to me is an entire region that looks like a 'B' Zombie movie? Szass pulling the strings from behind the curtain = Kewl. Dawn of the dead = good for a single adventure... maybe.

They took a thousand plothooks and boiled it down to one cheesy one (IMHO). I don't get it...

And the whole Plains of Leng thing doesn't make sense. If it was to give it more of a Cthulhu-esqu feel, isn't that what all the lore revoloving around the Abolethic Soverignty (and Pandorym, and Star Elves, and anything else BC touches...) is for? It seems like more unnecessary redundancy was created then gotten rid of.

This isn't the normal bash - I have warmed-up to a lot of the new lore (In regards to me running games, not as to my being a fan of the setting). Its just that now I have to think about what was better in each edition (which is highly subjective and will be different for each person).

The beautiful part about this is that now I have even more choices. If the old version didn't tickle my fancy I just swap it for the new one. I plan to set my next campaign in 1390 (just ten years after my last one). Since most of the chaos is still going on, that is the PERFECT time period to run a game in which I want to borrow stuff from all eras (and I won't violate any canon making-up whatever I want - what could be more perfect?) All the NPCs I want are still around, the ones I don't aren't, and I can chose between either version of each locale.

Just one question (which also cleverly brings this back around to the topic): What year did all the badness go down in Thay? I think the most useful Thay for me would be just before those events. I can have them already making the break from the enclaves, which is something I didn't really care for (the official version - I can alter that now).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Nov 2010 19:45:12
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  19:53:09  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Originally posted by Markustay

I find it an unusable mess now - I run fairly low-level games, so of what use to me is an entire region that looks like a 'B' Zombie movie? Szass pulling the strings from behind the curtain = Kewl. Dawn of the dead = good for a single adventure... maybe.



Like Alisttair, I think having a land full of undead and ruled by a powerful, albeit demented, lich is great. Though if I were to choose between that and the old Thay, I'd rather have the latter... Credit it to 'familiarity' and diversity.

quote:

Originally posted by Markustay

They took a thousand plothooks and boiled it down to one cheesy one (IMHO). I don't get it...




Hmm...Sorry, but I think that's a rather 'baseless' conclusion. I'd like to point out the highlights of each book in the trilogy for you to have a rather 'clear view' of the entire picture. But that's giving too much SPOILERS. So I'll just suggest you read them. They're far from cheesy, and more like among the best FR novels ever written, both character- and story-wise.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Just one question (which also cleverly brings this back around to the topic): What year did all the badness go down in Thay? I think the most useful Thay for me would be just before those events. I can have them already making the break from the enclaves, which is something I didn't really care for (the official version - I can alter that now).



It's exactly in the Year Blue Fire, 1385 DR. A great war between Szass Tam and the united zulkirs took place in the Keep of Sorrows. When the Blue Fire struck, it was like a tie. Only Dmitra, the then Zulkir of Illusion, died among the leaders. But the rest were severely enervated, including Tam.

While his enemies were licking their wounds, Tam struck a 'bargain' with Bane, thus temporarily augmenting his depleted power. The war raged on till 1478 DR, The Year of the Dark Circle. To incapacitate his enemies, who were mostly composed of humans, he poisoned rivers and blighted the lands, something his armies (almost all of them were undead) had no problem with at all.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 09 Nov 2010 20:09:17
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idilippy
Senior Scribe

USA
409 Posts

Posted - 09 Nov 2010 :  22:03:35  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thay 1.0 but with a little more success is my vote, undead apocalypses aren't my thing when it comes to fantasy.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  00:19:30  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So long as Thay remains, I'll always be happy. And though I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a new Zulkirate being established [and I do have some ideas on that], I'm just as interested in seeing how Thay under the skeletal thumb of Tam, progresses.

I don't think I'd bring back most of the original Zulkirs, though. Re-establishing a new ruling Red Wizards body warrants the potential for new ideas/concepts to be introduced. Like Greater and Lesser Zulkirs, for example. We know that aspirant Red Wizards vying for a position among the Zulkirs, must contest against other fellow Red Wizards. But now I'm thinking of having something of a Sith "Rule of Two" for each Zulkir position -- one to hold the power, and the other to crave it -- all in the hope of furthering the understanding of each School of Magic.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  00:33:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
1385, huh?

That doesn't work for me. And here I thought I figured-out a way to have my cake and eat it too.

Guess I'll have to violate canon after-all, oh well.

And as for Tam's 'big move' - that always been part of the setting. Ed had that right there from the start (as he did the Spellplague, although it was some 'unnamed future disaster'). Szass has been running things all along - it was all the maneuvering and plotting that the rest of the Zulkirs were doing that made Thay so useful to me.

So this is the way I look at it - Szass Tam taking over Thay is like Thanksgiving. It was something delicious to look forward to, but now that it came and went, all we have left is a lot crap.

They basically used up one the biggest mega-plothooks in the setting, and for what?

BRAAAAAAAAINS!!!



"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2010 00:34:24
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  00:57:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My ideal Thay is none of these... My ideal Thay begins with Szass Tam magically dominating a couple of the other zulkirs, in a subtle power play. He's trying for another, but that other realizes what's going on and blows the whistle. Some of the zulkirs rally to Szass, some line up to oppose him.

Szass manages to hold on to power at home, but his opponents flee Thay. They basically take over Mulmaster, and make it the capital of Thay-in-Exile (just a working name). Using the income generated by the Red Wal-Marts, they continue to oppose Szass and his buddies.

Both the Loyalists and the Exiles claim to be the real Thay, and both want to rule a united Thay. Both sides have the other side infiltrated, and in the confusion, just about every other power group in the Realms has gotten involved -- some to support one side or the other, some to encourage both sides to kill each other off, some to use one faction to advance their own goals, and some just to get some money/magic.

So we wind up with two very driven groups, fighting over something no one else wants, and with oodles and oodles of potential for intrigue and adventure.

And yes, there is more than a little influence from BattleTech with Clans Wolf and Wolf-in-Exile going on right there!

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  01:13:01  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Both the Loyalists and the Exiles claim to be the real Thay, and both want to rule a united Thay.
I play on Ed's definition for "Thayan" and "Thayvian" when working with similar ideas.

Taking Wooly's working as an example, and since Ed has told us previously, that "Thayvian" is actually the more ancient and traditional of the two terms, it's seems reasonable to assume that those individuals who wish to follow the more traditional paths of power in Thay, would identify themselves with the more archaic "Thayvian" term. "Thayan," on the other hand, is an entirely more recent linguistic construct and, thus, would likely better reflect the ambitious nature of the "new" mercantile philosophy of those Red Wizards fleeing to Mulmaster.

Alternatively, you could suggest that the Zulkirs in Mulmaster believe themselves to be adhering to the "true" and "traditional" fortunes of the nation of Thay, and therefore, claim the more archaic term, "Thayvian," as a way of fortifying their intention to represent the pre-rise-of-Tam Thayvian realm.

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  01:16:44  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I LIKE that idea, Wooly! Sounds better than what happened.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Dennis
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9933 Posts

Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  04:10:46  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

So long as Thay remains, I'll always be happy. And though I'm intrigued by the possibilities of a new Zulkirate being established [and I do have some ideas on that], I'm just as interested in seeing how Thay under the skeletal thumb of Tam, progresses.



As I'll be. While I also like to see how Thay progresses under Tam's rule, it won't work that well for me should he remain for so long.

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I don't think I'd bring back most of the original Zulkirs, though. Re-establishing a new ruling Red Wizards body warrants the potential for new ideas/concepts to be introduced. Like Greater and Lesser Zulkirs, for example. We know that aspirant Red Wizards vying for a position among the Zulkirs, must contest against other fellow Red Wizards. But now I'm thinking of having something of a Sith "Rule of Two" for each Zulkir position -- one to hold the power, and the other to crave it -- all in the hope of furthering the understanding of each School of Magic.




Well, I'd like to see Lallara, Nevron, and Lauzoril reinstated in their respective thrones, and perhaps one more from the very first Zulkirate. The rest of the schools could vote for new zulkirs. The old and new zulkirs could work to have an integrated, better Thay. The old to uphold the ancient customs, beliefs, or basically the what-to-do's of the-Thay-that-was, and the new to foster changes beneficial to their realm, without necessarily destroying their heritage. This integration is something Szass Tam doesn't care about, because it hardly matters to his true goal.

Every beginning has an end.
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The Sage
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  04:40:53  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

As I'll be. While I also like to see how Thay progresses under Tam's rule, it won't work that well for me should he remain for so long.
Certainly. I wouldn't expect Tam's Thay to have the kind of sustainability that we've seen with other undead realms anyway, like RAVENLOFT's Necropolis for example. Thay has always been a land of Byzantine politics. Transition is almost hard-wired into the realm and its people.

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Dennis
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  05:38:48  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been thinking about a BIG WHAT IF?!.....

What if it's actually Larloch who CONQUERED Thay? That Szass Tam was simply his tool for this end. Tam had done a few 'errands' for him before. And maybe this is just one of those. And I don't think Tam would have any other choice on the matter, either, as he feared Larloch. To quote page 4 of Netheril: Empire of Magic, A long moment of silence descended over the two undead creatures, their gazes locked on one another. If Szass would have had a heart, it would have been racing."

Perhaps Tam was just acting that he wanted to erect the Dread Rings so no one else would suspect that Larloch's 'bony hands' were working behind the scene. Mayhap he asked Bane instead of Larloch to help him after the SP because the Great Lich went to an unknown world via one of his portals. Maybe he didn't abandoned his 'duty' despite the devastating effects of the SP because he knew that to do so only meant destruction from the very hands of Larloch.

And maybe Larloch's purpose to have Thay in his solid grip is to establish a BASE in that corner of Toril---for yet another unknown purpose.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 10 Nov 2010 05:42:06
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Dennis
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  07:52:00  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

1385, huh?

That doesn't work for me.



Well, most of the action happened during 1385 till 1478. But the trilogy starts during 1375 DR, Year of the Risen Elfkin, when Druxus Rhym, the then Zulkir of Transmutation, was murdered in his own chamber.

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Thauramarth
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  14:08:06  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thay 1.0 it is, for me. I loved the institution of the Zulkirs, and how it kind of, sort of, managed to keep Thay on the map. Plus, Lauzoril was one of my preferred supporting characters (mostly on the basis of his portrayal in The Simbul's Gift).

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Dennis
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Posted - 10 Nov 2010 :  14:30:15  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed. Lauzoril's really one of the most interesting among the zulkirs. Richard said he hadn't read The Simbul's Gift, but at least I spotted no inconsistency between Abbey's depiction of him and Richard's.

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