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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  03:59:22  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
So the thread of similar nature, Why not an Arch-villainess?, was sealed due to some perso--- er, issues.... This is a 'modified version.' To those who participated in that thread, you'll notice the difference.

--------

MOST female characters, both heroes and antagonists, have always taken a 'backseat' in the Realms. When the word 'archvillains' is mentioned, readers often think of Szass Tam, Telamont, Larloch, the Sojourner, Sammaster, “The Cockroach....” Not really a surprise. The realm of fantasy has always been 'a men's world,' and that's also true to FR. Heh, even in my The Villains Series thread, all the examples are males.

To provide women a much-deserved LONG EXPOSURE, why not have long-staying archvillainesses in the Realms? That is, female evil characters that do not just scrabble over a bag of gold, but those whose magical or divine power, or fighter's skills are great enough (equal or nearly equal to the might of the males aforementioned) to cause drastic changes in an entire realm or a considerable part of Faerun.

Who do you think WOULD make (with a little boost of power and longer exposure) an interesting archvillainess?

Choices:

Lallara Mediocros
Quenthel Baenre
Lady Polaris
Triel Baenre
Sysquemalyn
One of the Durthans
Dmitra Flass
Scyllua Darkhope
Shyressa
Sarya Dlardrageth
Iyraclea
Others

(Anonymous Vote)

Every beginning has an end.

Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  04:00:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For those not familiar with some of the characters, here are some tidbits:

Lallara Mediocros - Zulkir of Abjuration; a creative artist in the field of torture and collects unusual magical items. (She appeared in The Simbul's Gift and the Haunted Lands trilogy.)

Quenthel - sister of Gromph Baere

Lady Polaris – a Netherese archwizard; once ruler of the floating city of Delia

Sysquemalyn - a vengeful Netherese wizard in the Netheril trilogy

Triel Baenre - Matron of House Baenre

Durthans - a secretive group of evil Rashemi witches

Dmitra - Zulkir of Illusion; led the 'cloaking' (through layers and layers of powerful illusions) of the zulkirs' armies as they rallied against Szass Tam.

Scyllua Darkhope - a fallen Paladin of Tyr; the Castellan of Zhentil Keep; and High Captain of its armies

Sarya Dlardrageth - a half sun elf, half-fiend sorceress; leader of the daemonfey and a princess of House Dlardrageth

Iyraclea, The Ice Queen – a High Priestess of Auril; once mentioned by Ed as someone who 'can' challenge Larloch. (She died in The Ruin, in her fight with the dracolich Zethrindor. But in D&D, there's no such thing as 'utterly dead.')

Shyressa – an archmage, vampire and member of the Twisted Rune

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 05 Nov 2010 08:22:50
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Sandro
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
266 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  04:31:06  Show Profile  Click to see Sandro's MSN Messenger address Send Sandro a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
why not have long-staying archvillainesses in the Realms?


See, this a problem that the Thayans do not have.

"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..."
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  04:36:07  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True. That's one of the reasons I've always liked Thay. It never discriminates on gender. Practically anyone can rise to power. Heh, its long-time enemy nations are ruled by females, so it absolutely has more than a bird's eye view of how formidable women can be.

But other nations have a 'problem' with it- or perhaps some authors have, or simply the guys from WotC do have.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 05 Nov 2010 05:04:38
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  05:43:56  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Go, girl power!! Er, I mean..... *looks around suspiciously and rubs hands together with an evil leer* MWUAHAHAHAHA!!! See? Us ladies can be diabolical, too!! Lol!

Seriously, though, I sort of "had" to vote for a Beanre chick. Nothin' worse than a race of man-hating power-mad bi- er, ladies for pure evil goodness!! (Yes, I AM aware that that was an oxymoron.)

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  06:10:53  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Go, girl power!! Er, I mean..... *looks around suspiciously and rubs hands together with an evil leer* MWUAHAHAHAHA!!! See? Us ladies can be diabolical, too!! Lol!





quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

Seriously, though, I sort of "had" to vote for a Beanre chick. Nothin' worse than a race of man-hating power-mad bi- er, ladies for pure evil goodness!! (Yes, I AM aware that that was an oxymoron.)



Interesting. There are bisexual priestesses in Menzo? I read a fair number of drow-centered novels, but I've never known any single bi priestess.

Every beginning has an end.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  06:36:38  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bi?? Uh, no, I was acutally referring to ANOTHER "b" word. Although, for drow women with man-issues, Triel comes to mind. There is a brief passage in Daughter of the Drow at the beginning, when Liriel is talking to "Aunt Triel" (shortly after her ascension to Matron) about rumors of Triel's "preferences" and how Jeggred is her ONLY son/child (from her graduation from Arach' Tinilith). Apparently, Triel is a certified lesbian.... There's even some vague off-hand reference to the effect that she is not likely to ever have any children of her own, and must rely on her sisters for the continuance of the line (because of her preferences, no doubt). Suffice it to say, if Triel is, then there are probably quite a few others, as well. Of BOTH persuasions!

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Penknight
Senior Scribe

USA
536 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  07:02:23  Show Profile Send Penknight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for Sarya Dlardrageth, if someone could write her intelligently as she deserves. There's a lot of potential that was left untapped with her character. I always enjoyed how Hellgate Keep and Cloak and Dagger presented her as an intelligent foe. Everything else fell spectacularly short of that. It's a true shame, in my opinion. In my Realms, she's still around and did things a little differently.

Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe

Israel
352 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  07:05:25  Show Profile  Visit Menelvagor's Homepage Send Menelvagor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While Triel is an intriguing character, I think I've had enough of Drow villainesses. I mean, most Drow villains seen are women, because of a matriarchal society. So I voted for Dmitra, although it was a very hard battle between her and Scyllua. A Fallen Paladin of Tyr, high captain of Zhentil Keep... just that sparse description make you want to know more. In fact, dennis, I'd add the part of her being a fallen paladin to her description.

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Lady Fellshot
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USA
379 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  07:06:37  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's also Halisstra sending Danifae to seduce Quenthel in the WotSQ books with the note that she had done similar things before. There's also the insinuation that Halisstra had partaken of Danifae's charms, and we know she had a thing for Ryld going too.

Actually among elves, I'd be really surprised if there weren't a decent number who swung in both directions. After all, why not?

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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  07:21:17  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah! I'd almost forgotten about that, LF. Yes, Halisstra and Danifae both seem to have gone that route, as well. And I'm not entirely sure, but I almost got the feeling that Phaeraun and Q'arlynd(sp?) both were, too. Or at least it was hinted at.

Regarding the Baenre vote, I went with Quenthel on that one. I sort of yo-yo on those two on who is more evil/better villainess. Triel is the frikkin MATRON, for heaven's sake. And she boinked a truly nasty demon and got a son out of the deal. I'd say that's pretty vile. (I don't play, run, or even acknowledge 4th ed, or anything post-Spell-plague or post WotSQ in drow stuff- or anything, really.) BUT! At the same time, Quenthel became Lolth's favorite little chew-toy, because she was utterly devoted, and went home stronger and better than ever, and apparently ended up doing a slice-and-dice on her sis. So, I dunno- it's a tough call which of those girls is worse.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  08:20:44  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Penknight

I voted for Sarya Dlardrageth, if someone could write her intelligently as she deserves. There's a lot of potential that was left untapped with her character.



I am and never was a fan of elves or half-elves, save the drow. But she's one of the very, very few exceptions. An interesting character indeed. She'll definitely give Szass Tam a pause, if not Larloch.

quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor

So I voted for Dmitra, although it was a very hard battle between her and Scyllua.



Had Lallara not existed, I would have voted for Dmitra. She's really cunning; seldom relied on power to get what she wanted, more on her intelligence; and had a number of spies. But I find Lallara far more interesting. What with that bi---y mouth! It's important to me that a villain has a sense of humor, even if the cost is someone else's degradation.

quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor

A Fallen Paladin of Tyr, high captain of Zhentil Keep... just that sparse description make you want to know more. In fact, dennis, I'd add the part of her being a fallen paladin to her description.



Done.

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

There's also Halisstra sending Danifae to seduce Quenthel in the WotSQ books with the note that she had done similar things before. There's also the insinuation that Halisstra had partaken of Danifae's charms....



In which book was it mentioned? I only read books 1 and 5 in the series.

quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

And I'm not entirely sure, but I almost got the feeling that Phaeraun and Q'arlynd both were, too.



Homosexuality and bisexuality expressly or implicitly depicted on fantasy novels often surprise me, as it is seldom (close to never) done. Heh, I never knew FR characters hinted or defined as gays. The only characters I know who might be gays (under the big umbrella of WotC) are Jace Beleren and his best friend, Kallist Rhoka from the MtG novel, Agents of Artifice. It was just a one-liner question from the necromancer Liliana Vess: “Are you two....?” I wonder, could this a big deal for writers? I know it was for J.K. She was even accused of being a coward for only revealing Dumbledore's homosexuality months after the release of The Deathly Hallows. For someone who braved the storm-like, biting, accusatory statements from various religions that her books promote 'atheism,' not a few people wonder how can she be a coward not to 'reveal' Dumbledore's preference IN any of the books in the series?

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 05 Nov 2010 08:27:30
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  10:43:14  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Penknight.

I'd vote for Cassana, and a story about that Thayan princess in Mulmaster would be interesting.

Lady Polaris, is she evil?

Shoon VI, lol, or Shyressa
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  11:17:28  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale



Lady Polaris, is she evil?




She struck me as neutral in the Netheril trilogy. I guess if she's not really evil, her current hazy alignment can be altered easily. Heh, if heroes can become villains, how much more the neutral characters?!She being Netherese though, I wonder what she would do with Shade.

Every beginning has an end.
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  13:34:30  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quenthel Baenre...
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1251 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  14:06:50  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was nicely surprised that the Lorosfyr locale in the deep underdark sections of Bakers' Final Gate was run by the Imaskari sorceress Selydra.

Selydra, also known as the Pale Sybil, her appearance was both inviting and unsettling. She has the eery look of a deep imaskari and the skills of an archmage abjurer-necromancer. She was courteous and enigmatic, but her thousands year old isolation in Lorosfyr made her insane; her longing for the warmth of a visitor was her weakness. Her end in the book was certainly not final (an archmage whisked through the dimensional rift of a sphere of annihilation and rod of cancellation has a chance of surviving the ordeal).


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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1251 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  14:09:11  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In this poll I chose Scyllua though.

I got a thing for commanding women in full plate.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  14:16:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GRYPHON

Quenthel Baenre...




I'd like to know why... Or is your reason same with Alystra's?

Every beginning has an end.
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe

USA
379 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  14:20:31  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

There's also Halisstra sending Danifae to seduce Quenthel in the WotSQ books with the note that she had done similar things before. There's also the insinuation that Halisstra had partaken of Danifae's charms....



In which book was it mentioned? I only read books 1 and 5 in the series.


I seem to recall something implied in Inssurrection about Danifae and Halisstra and in Condemnation Danifae gets sent to seduce Quenthel for the first time, IIRC.

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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  14:21:51  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude, where's the Simbul on that list? Or is it just me who sees her as a villain a'times?

Also this, which is rather a departure from the subject at hand but should be addressed:
quote:
Originally posted by dennis

Homosexuality and bisexuality expressly or implicitly depicted on fantasy novels often surprise me, as it is seldom (close to never) done.
There have been long threads on this in the past--generally speaking, it's just such a divisive issue that FR fiction rarely goes there. In the wider world of fantasy, it's much more commonly discussed, and there are entire niche markets that cater exclusively to all different sexual orientations in their characters and readers.

The dominant strategy in Realms fiction is to leave it up to the reader to determine a character's inclinations.

I for one have long been a proponent of things being more open in the Realms (which I believe matches Ed's intention) and so have written numerous characters of varying sexualities, some overt and some merely implicit. But if a reader doesn't see it, then it isn't there for that reader.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 05 Nov 2010 :  14:58:49  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot

I seem to recall something implied in Inssurrection about Danifae and Halisstra and in Condemnation Danifae gets sent to seduce Quenthel for the first time, IIRC.



Oh, that's why I couldn't recall it at all.

quote:
Originally posted by Erik

There have been long threads on this in the past---generally speaking, it's just such a divisive issue that FR fiction rarely goes there. In the wider world of fantasy, it's much more commonly discussed, and there are entire niche markets that cater exclusively to all different sexual orientations in their characters and readers.



I'm not talking about the sub-genre GLB Fantasy. I'm referring to the Fantasy genre itself. The characters in a Realms (Fantasy) novel do not need to be all straight, in the same way the characters in a GLB Fantasy book don't have to be all gays, lesbians, or bi. And writers do not need to label them either; they can simply 'show' what their preferences are by their actions. For what purpose? Well, one is to show that part of the 'colorfulness' and 'definition' of a character is based on his preference. Another is to show the world that Fantasy – and by extension, the authors – is really 'open' to it, which is a rather sensitive issue to some. I'm NOT saying that ALL Realms novels SHOULD include one or two gay, lesbian or bi characters, or that the writers must carefully balance the number of characters according to sexual preferences. But it'll be better if we see SOME who are expressly described so. Anyway, I do not want to veer from the topic any further. So I'll leave it at that.

quote:
Originally posted by Erik

Dude, where's the Simbul on that list? Or is it just me who sees her as a villain a'times?




Even with Mystra's rein on her, she's still a danger to the Red Wizards. How much more if she shatters that rein, and become totally independent and irrevocably mad? Heh, Szass Tam might actually CRY.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 05 Nov 2010 15:03:38
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swifty
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
517 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2010 :  11:55:05  Show Profile  Visit swifty's Homepage Send swifty a Private Message  Reply with Quote
if that priestess of auril could almost challenge larloch how come she was so comprehensively beaten in the rogue dragons trilogy.ps i voted quenthel.

go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2010 :  12:08:05  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by swifty

if that priestess of auril could almost challenge larloch how come she was so comprehensively beaten in the rogue dragons trilogy.



Zethrindor is a very powerful dracolich, an enemy not easy to slay. Also, remember that Iyraclea was a priestess - which means MOST of her powers came from Auril. Perhaps it was Auril's decision that she lost.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 06 Nov 2010 12:10:48
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker

51 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2010 :  15:07:41  Show Profile  Visit Tren of Twilight Tower's Homepage Send Tren of Twilight Tower a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hm. Interesting question that brings some "old" thoughts forward.

All of the above noted characters are good candidates for position of Executive Director at local (read: "FR") Evil Inc. However, I would prefer to see some twist there. My interest would be more sparked if for Mr. Negative we would get somebody who was not an obvious candidate to become one.

There is so much depth in people - hidden, as well as obvious, desires; aspirations; beliefs; principles; circumstances that shape personalities and decisions; events that force us to pick one way rather than the other;...

To conclude this disconnected rumbling, "I" would prefer to have somebody else for the arch-bad-bottom. Somebody who is not necessarily having bad and dark origins.

Good choice for topic, Dennis. Cheers to you, sir!

Tren
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2010 :  15:26:51  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower

Hm. Interesting question that brings some "old" thoughts forward.

All of the above noted characters are good candidates for position of Executive Director at local (read: "FR") Evil Inc. However, I would prefer to see some twist there. My interest would be more sparked if for Mr. Negative we would get somebody who was not an obvious candidate to become one.

There is so much depth in people - hidden, as well as obvious, desires; aspirations; beliefs; principles; circumstances that shape personalities and decisions; events that force us to pick one way rather than the other...

To conclude this disconnected rumbling, "I" would prefer to have somebody else for the arch-bad-bottom. Somebody who is not necessarily having bad and dark origins.




That would be a great challenge for the author. The Simbul could be a good example. Her past might not be all that 'shiny' and happy, but it's far from dark, either. The Simbul is already slightly 'mad.' Augment that madness to a considerable degree, and you'll have an archvillainess that will literally shake the Realms. BUUUUUT I doubt if Ed will ever make her evil.

quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower

Good choice for topic, Dennis. Cheers to you, sir!




Thanks!

Every beginning has an end.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5054 Posts

Posted - 06 Nov 2010 :  18:33:34  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Full agreement on that, dennis. ED doesn't do "evil" or "good" characters; everyone's shades of gray.
What he DOES do is sympathetic characters.
According to Ed, the Simbul may surprise you in time yet to come. Or not, depending on your view of the character.
love,
THO
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