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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 19:15:41
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Oops... forgot a paragraph or two in my previous post:
I'm not against WotC putting out "fat" novels from time to time. I think they'd be better off if they gave Ed/Elaine/RAS a much beefier word count (it might also force them to shrink the huge font-size they currently use in hardcovers).
However, I think they are already doing that. How many trilogies have we seen in the last decade? These are your "fat" stories, but WotC has allowed the authors to write them in parts and publish them separately. I mentioned it before: Lord of the Rings is six novels/books. But when published as a single book, it's got 1216 pages (~454,000 words), which is only around 50,000 to 100,000 words longer than Jordan/Martin. Now, if RAS's Cleric Quintet was 90,000 words a novel, then he's matched Lord of the Rings.
It's a matter of publishing and perspective. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 19:28:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oops... forgot a paragraph or two in my previous post:
I'm not against WotC putting out "fat" novels from time to time. I think they'd be better off if they gave Ed/Elaine/RAS a much beefier word count (it might also force them to shrink the huge font-size they currently use in hardcovers).
However, I think they are already doing that. How many trilogies have we seen in the last decade? These are your "fat" stories, but WotC has allowed the authors to write them in parts and publish them separately. I mentioned it before: Lord of the Rings is six novels/books. But when published as a single book, it's got 1216 pages (~454,000 words), which is only around 50,000 to 100,000 words longer than Jordan/Martin. Now, if RAS's Cleric Quintet was 90,000 words a novel, then he's matched Lord of the Rings.
It's a matter of publishing and perspective.
Each of the Malazan books by Steven Erikson and Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan is not a combination/fusion of two separate novels, and each of them is equal to two, three, or more FR novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 19:39:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Oops... forgot a paragraph or two in my previous post:
I'm not against WotC putting out "fat" novels from time to time. I think they'd be better off if they gave Ed/Elaine/RAS a much beefier word count (it might also force them to shrink the huge font-size they currently use in hardcovers).
However, I think they are already doing that. How many trilogies have we seen in the last decade? These are your "fat" stories, but WotC has allowed the authors to write them in parts and publish them separately. I mentioned it before: Lord of the Rings is six novels/books. But when published as a single book, it's got 1216 pages (~454,000 words), which is only around 50,000 to 100,000 words longer than Jordan/Martin. Now, if RAS's Cleric Quintet was 90,000 words a novel, then he's matched Lord of the Rings.
It's a matter of publishing and perspective.
Each of the Malazan books by Steven Erikson and Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan is not a combination/fusion of two separate novels, and each of them is equal to two, three, or more FR novels.
Yes, but that's because the publisher sees that they will sell better that way. After Jordan got the first six books out, Tor started to break the earlier volumes into two "novellas" each. Again, it comes down to the best method to sell the series.
Eye of the World 305k words, The Great Hunt 267k words, Dragon Reborn 251k words, bring the novellas in a between 125k-150k each
Steven Erikson's Malazon: Gardens of the Moon - 209k words, Deadhouse Gates - 270k words |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 22 Oct 2010 19:41:24 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 19:47:40
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So 'thin' novels is just a way to milk the consumer for more money?
Figures......
Why sell someone something, when you can sell it to them three times... or five...
Reminds me why I stopped collecting comics. 
Anyhow, I agree that it depends on the author. Elaine and Ed can obviously handle it - all those extra words just makes the story better.
So basically it all comes down to talent. You either have a knack for 'fat writing', or you don't.
And I'm not saying I like all my novels that way - just my fantasy ones, and more specifically FR (SciFi can go either way). I prefer my Horror and (modern) adventure 'lean'. Mystery depends - you can go either way with that, depending on what you are trying to achieve. For me, it depends on the genre, and sometimes even the author (to this day I have never finished Gormenghast - I grew bored long before the author finished describing the umpteenth relative of the main character).
Michael Moorcock is a good example of the opposite extreme, but he learned his craft by writing short stories for mags, which requires a different set of skills. The stories have to be lean, so you get good at it.
So maybe I should change my vote to "Fat, but only if they can handle it". Sometimes saying too much can be a dangerous thing.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2010 19:56:56 |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 19:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So 'thin' novels is just a way to milk the consumer for more money?
Figures......
Yup, usually. If your English isn´t strong enough you can expect to pay the double amount for anything here in Germany e.g....any "big" novel will be split in two (e.g. all the Malazan ones). Even remotely beefier ones (say the Dragonlance novels, where each main series were six novels - shockingly thin ones). And no rhyme or reason as to where the book is split for the most part, either. So you have to wait a lot longer and pay a lot more. So happy to be bilingual
Sorry for straying off topic, it just makes me fly into blind rage every time I think about it. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 20:07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So maybe I should change my vote to "Fat, but only if they can handle it". Sometimes saying too much can be a dangerous thing.
Well, one's trash is another's gem. I can't stand the Empyrean trilogy, while some love it. I like RotA, but others vehemently dislike it. So I'd give equal 'fat' treatment to all authors – to make everyone happy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 21:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So 'thin' novels is just a way to milk the consumer for more money?
Figures......
Why sell someone something, when you can sell it to them three times... or five...
Reminds me why I stopped collecting comics.
Anyhow, I agree that it depends on the author. Elaine and Ed can obviously handle it - all those extra words just makes the story better.
So basically it all comes down to talent. You either have a knack for 'fat writing', or you don't.
And I'm not saying I like all my novels that way - just my fantasy ones, and more specifically FR (SciFi can go either way). I prefer my Horror and (modern) adventure 'lean'. Mystery depends - you can go either way with that, depending on what you are trying to achieve. For me, it depends on the genre, and sometimes even the author (to this day I have never finished Gormenghast - I grew bored long before the author finished describing the umpteenth relative of the main character).
Michael Moorcock is a good example of the opposite extreme, but he learned his craft by writing short stories for mags, which requires a different set of skills. The stories have to be lean, so you get good at it.
So maybe I should change my vote to "Fat, but only if they can handle it". Sometimes saying too much can be a dangerous thing.
I'll go with that. You stopped collecting comics just because of THAT, MT? Man, I'm sorry. I really don't care how many printings they do. If I get it in a first-run printing, I'll go with the cover (if multiples) I like best. That's it. If it's a later printing, I just don't care. It's the STORY I buy them for, not how much I think it'll be worth in twenty years. Although if there's a variant that is hard to find and the same price, I might go with it, just because I WOULD like to make a good investment on them. But only for some comics. Zorro being one, (I love the "new" series of it.) and some issues of Spidey being another. I did NOT buy the variants of the Dark Elf Trilogy graphic novels, however, the price difference was just too high. And all that variant art came out later in the TPB's, so I got it anyway.
I agree, dennis. I liked the YoRD strilogy, though I've heard others say they hated it, or that it was only so-so. And they were a little on the lean side, too. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 23:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So maybe I should change my vote to "Fat, but only if they can handle it". Sometimes saying too much can be a dangerous thing.
I can easily and heartily support both statements. More pages for those authors who can add to our understanding and enjoyment of the Realms. And personally, I don't care one bit if those pages are bound under one cover or three. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 23:19:57
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in a non-shared fantasy novels with more pages sell more, they make more impression on that type of customer who expects a complex story
Malazan novels are not ''fat'', they are very broad, covering multiple continents and storylines, in such novels the authors's skill depends on when not to reveal the details and inspire mystery. Tough there every peasant is a philosopher.
on the other side books like WoT would be ideal for FR, unlike the Randland the lore bits in there would not bore me to death
Waterdeep the novel was thicker, it was a positive change, but no extra pages will save you from an uninteresting plot and those characters
edit: ideally all FR novels should be like A Storm of Swords
edit 2: I felt the Twilight War needed some meat, maybe double the size
edit 3: and I don't care about long fighting scenes, they are a waste of space |
Edited by - Quale on 23 Oct 2010 13:06:15 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 01:01:06
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Elaine's Evermeet was that type of book as well.
Mayb instead of re-releasing the Elminster novels under one cover EVERY year with a different title, they should allow Elaine to add another 2-300 pg. to Evermeet and turn it into a trilogy. What works one way may work even better the other. The Annotated Elf? 
I'd love to hear more details about some of the events that happened in that book (like what happened to the twins on the Moonshaes?) I think Elaine is the only one who does 'fat' as well as Ed (amongst the FR authors).
Although I think Steven Schend could handle it, given the chance. He writes in that 'broad strokes' style. As much as I enjoy Paul's writing, I don't know how well he could do a lore-laden story; I think he found his niche and it suits him perfectly.
I see they gave Mark Sehestedt his own trilogy - good call. His novels have been 'thin' thus far, but I think he could handle the fat style - I think he has found the 'sweet-spot' of lore vs story; his novels have enough to keep a Realms fans happy, without getting overly wordy.
Keep Drizzt novels the size they are - the last thing I want is another 200 pg. of introspection.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2010 01:04:10 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 13:21:41
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| I voted 'fat'. Not necessarily humongously fat, but "Cormyr:A Novel" sized at least. Most FR books are a little bit too thin for my tastes. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 13:23:01
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I quite honestly prefer fantasy and sci-fi to be short. Short stories or short novels. Images and names given as short impressions and pictures that sets the imagination working. One sentence can do the work of ten pages if done properly. For me personally, it is more rewarding to read Smith, Howard, Burroughs, Vance Leiber etc, than the huge modern novels. For some reason the long descriptions makes it impossible to really picture the world and its inhabitants.
OK, so I am a grumbling grognard even in this subject. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 14:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But seriously, when I went to the discount bookstore last week (looking for 4e products - only two available there thus-far) I picked-up Player's Guide to Eberron (I think that was it), and was considering purchasing it (it was only $7 IIRC), but I was afraid if I dropped it it might fall between a crack in the floor.
Are we talking about novels or game products? Two different animals ;)
Edit: I feel the 4e campaign guides are a bit skinny too, just to be clear. I still get all giddy looking through the 3e FR sourcebook, which is a big fat sloppy pig of yummy lore. |
Edited by - Matt James on 23 Oct 2010 14:36:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 14:38:31
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True, but the same applies to both for me:
If I am looking for random reading material (not something specific) I am far more likely to purchase something thicker because I figure it will provide me with more long-term enjoyment overall.
I avoid 'thin' books, be they source or novel.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 15:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I actually voted for lean. "Fat" novels have their place and I'm a Jordanite (eagerly awaiting November 8th).
HOWEVER, short novels have this place in my heart. They are the paperbacks you can shove in a back pocket and read on a break at work. They are the books you grab as you're running out the door before heading to the airport/train station to read on the trip. They are the place where all the great up and comers (like certain authors around here) get their first break into the industry. They are the tantalizing appetizers that make you hungry for more from a setting.
Besides, we already have "fat" stories. They just weren't published in on book (well, until the omnibuses came out). Remember, the trilogies/quintets/etc. could be considered one "fat" novel if you read them all in one sitting. For example, the Lord of the Rings? It's SIX books, not three. The publisher just chose to publish them paired together.
I hear ya, sir. That is why I like the "shorties" too.
@Erik,
Am going a bit off topic here, but I want to say how much it is appreciated to have you involved in our community. Not only that you are a writer we like to "read", but also you are "one of us". Priceless. Will happily keep buying your titles. Keep good job and thank you.
Tren |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 22:08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Tren of Twilight Tower
@Erik,
Am going a bit off topic here, but I want to say how much it is appreciated to have you involved in our community. Not only that you are a writer we like to "read", but also you are "one of us". Priceless. Will happily keep buying your titles. Keep good job and thank you.
Tren
Why thank you, Tren--I'm extremely gratified you feel that way. And I do hope this discussion continues--it's been very fun to read along!
I want to mention my own perspective on the issue as well:
IMO, I consider my FR work to be "lean"--that is, I try and condense to the sharp bones of my story and use strong, resonant details, rather than trying to flood the scene with lots of images. Either way can work, I know, that's just my style as a writer.
And I will say that were I given more word count to work with, like say, 150k, I would probably not pad my story but rather just write more lean stuff, as I like to put in as much story as I can in the space allotted.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 01:59:12
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I'm glad more people agree with me, or at least voted the same – so far. I really don't have any problems with lean novels – I myself read lean novels that are not set in FR, mostly YA for that's my target readers. But this the REALMS we're talking about, a shared world that is heavily lore-laden. So while characterization and plot should be given enough stress, so should, and if I may add, much more should the setting – which is the primary reason we are here at all! And how else can the setting be given enough or primal stress than making the novels 'fat'?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 25 Oct 2010 00:22:30 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 01:01:51
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| Personally I'd like a greater variation of stories across the subgenres, partially because I've been reading more cross genre fantasy than "adventure" these days, but also because the Realms can handle it. In addition, some subgenres have different ways of approaching background lore than others. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 01:12:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Personally I'd like a greater variation of stories across the subgenres, partially because I've been reading more cross genre fantasy than "adventure" these days, but also because the Realms can handle it. In addition, some subgenres have different ways of approaching background lore than others.
Subgenres like what, for instance? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 02:58:14
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- Mystery would be very awesome and could really appeal to the lore nuts if handled well (an archeologist type main character for example). A detective story could be fun too.
- There are so many places that can be used for horror (NOT gore ridden messes) it seems like a shame that there isn't more of it. Lovecraft style horror is very versatile.
- I suppose one could set a romance in the Realms (tales of Sune?) but I have utterly no interest in that particular subgenre.
- An spy vs spy novel could easily fit in somewhere.
- There's any number of stories that could be geared for younger audiences too.
I just keep having this image of a gamer type group of adventurers with more than a few of the novels or straight epic fantasy when I see Realms books. I know this is a problem of my own perception (I'm not all that up to date with the current Realms books) and I haven't read all the novels, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that more can be done with what's there. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 03:27:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
- Mystery would be very awesome and could really appeal to the lore nuts if handled well (an archeologist type main character for example). A detective story could be fun too.
- There are so many places that can be used for horror (NOT gore ridden messes) it seems like a shame that there isn't more of it. Lovecraft style horror is very versatile.
- I suppose one could set a romance in the Realms (tales of Sune?) but I have utterly no interest in that particular subgenre.
- An spy vs spy novel could easily fit in somewhere.
- There's any number of stories that could be geared for younger audiences too.
I just keep having this image of a gamer type group of adventurers with more than a few of the novels or straight epic fantasy when I see Realms books. I know this is a problem of my own perception (I'm not all that up to date with the current Realms books) and I haven't read all the novels, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that more can be done with what's there.
The old and new novels already have doses of other genres. The HL trilogy alone has three subgenres in it: romance (between Tammith and Bareris), spy (the spies of Dmitra, led by Malark), and horor (the countless undead invetions of Xingax and Xingax himself).
And there are anthologies that deal with other genres...
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 10:33:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
- Mystery would be very awesome and could really appeal to the lore nuts if handled well (an archeologist type main character for example). A detective story could be fun too.
- There are so many places that can be used for horror (NOT gore ridden messes) it seems like a shame that there isn't more of it. Lovecraft style horror is very versatile.
- I suppose one could set a romance in the Realms (tales of Sune?) but I have utterly no interest in that particular subgenre.
- An spy vs spy novel could easily fit in somewhere.
- There's any number of stories that could be geared for younger audiences too.
I just keep having this image of a gamer type group of adventurers with more than a few of the novels or straight epic fantasy when I see Realms books. I know this is a problem of my own perception (I'm not all that up to date with the current Realms books) and I haven't read all the novels, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that more can be done with what's there.
You don't see the romance subgenre in Song & Swords? Or in the Return of the Archmages? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 12:27:10
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| Rich Baker's book Swordmage is geared towards an Old West style and Corsair is much more of a pirate book. Both hold plot elements that keep the story going but the use of the environment and the way the stories are told, definitly show the differences in both book, which I really like. I haven't read Avenger yet but I plan to soon. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 15:12:26
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@dennis, The anthologies while nice, aren't full novels and most of them aren't for subgenre highlighting (although it may occur anyway). Realms of the Dead certainly wasn't rooted in horror.
@everyone else, I did mention that I haven't read everything, yes? |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 22:02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Mystery would be very awesome and could really appeal to the lore nuts if handled well (an archeologist type main character for example). A detective story could be fun too.
The Realms has had several mysteries. You have Muder in Cormyr, Murder in Halruaa, and the Realms of Mystery anthology. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but overall I personally liked each of them. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
Edited by - Halidan on 29 Oct 2010 03:22:08 |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2010 : 09:25:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Mystery would be very awesome and could really appeal to the lore nuts if handled well (an archeologist type main character for example). A detective story could be fun too.
The Realms has had several mysteries. You have Muder in Cormyr, Murder in Halruaa, and the Realms of Mystery anthology. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but overall I personally liked each of them.
Halidan, those quoted lines are Lady F's, not mine. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 03:23:21
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| opps. My mistake. Please accept my appology. The original post has also been changed. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 03:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
@dennis, The anthologies while nice, aren't full novels and most of them aren't for subgenre highlighting (although it may occur anyway). Realms of the Dead certainly wasn't rooted in horror.
@everyone else, I did mention that I haven't read everything, yes?
In any case WotC decides to publish a subgenre for FR, it will be YA, as DL has the same. Still the stuff of adventure, but the target audience are the young.
I am not against the publishing of sub-genres that you specified, Lady Fellshot. I just think that WotC still has a lot of 'fixing-the-Realms' endeavor to take care of, and should focus on it more than undertaking another venture. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 05 Nov 2010 12:46:08 |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2010 : 20:47:30
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
@dennis, The anthologies while nice, aren't full novels and most of them aren't for subgenre highlighting (although it may occur anyway). Realms of the Dead certainly wasn't rooted in horror.
@everyone else, I did mention that I haven't read everything, yes?
In any case WotC decides to publish a subgenre for FR, it will be YA, as DL has the same. Still the stuff of adventure, but the target audience are the young.
They've already done that, as a matter of interest, with R.A. and Geno Salvatore's Stone of Tymora series. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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