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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 22:00:38
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Hi there, I was wondering if I could get some help figuring out the canonical geopolitical situation of the Sea of Fallen Stars, circa 1360-1372. I'm wondering what changes would have to be made in the politics and balance of power in the area to drastically reduce the occurrence of piracy in the area? I'm thinking that if Cormyr greatly increased their landholdings, their wealth, and their naval power, at the expense of the independent cities and Sembia, and managed to annex more major ports in the area, that would go a very, very long way to drastically reducing the occurrence of naval raiding and naval piracy in the Sea? Which nation with coastline on the sea would be, with a few pushes to improve their relative power, would be in the best position to enforce rule of law on the waves?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 22:28:35
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Cormyr.
I cannot see them annexing other countries' cities (although they love annexing city-states), especially considering Sembia, its wealth, and its importance to the Shades.
On the other hand, we do have a precedent of Cormyr creating a conjoined military with Sembia and the Dales (during the Tuigan war), and they do share an island for naval bases.
So to create the situation you want, there would have to be a major upswing in piracy, and Cormyr would have to use its clout to obtain 'donations' of men, ships, and gold for a multi-national fleet as you propose.
However, it would only last until the pirate threat was put down. If Cormyr tried to retain its hold on the seas (and other people's property and citizens), they would find quite a few other nations banding together to stop them (including Thay, Old Empires, the Moonsea cities, Sembia, the Dragonreach cities, perhaps even the likes of Turmish and Impiltur, etc).
The world has seen this behavior before, most recently with the Citadel of the Raven. No one is stupid enough to allow one power too much control ever again. Cormyr would find itself being cast as 'the bad guy'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2010 22:30:00 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 22:34:11
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| So what of the coastal powers would be able to create a situation where there is less danger on the high seas, in general? And what does the political balance of the area in this time frame look like? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 19 Oct 2010 22:37:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 23:50:02
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The political balance would be about the same. The economic balance, however, would shift to the countries that rely more on sea trade, which would now become much more lucrative.
Ergo, theoretically, Sembia might become a more major political player, only because it has the trade-base to become a mercantile giant (and money=power, most of the time). But that would take time - time which the other nations would also be taking advantage of the safer trade-routes.
Overland trade may be adversely affected, though. Most of the VERY lucrative trade between the Realms and kara-Tur goes across the Golden Road. Safer sea passage would mean that ships could use the recently cleared (for large ships) Rauthenflow River to access Semphar directly, and use the safer southern trade-way of the Silk Road to move goods.
If Mulhorand is smart, it will block this free route and charge (tax) for passage, and force trade through its own satelite-state of Murghom instead. Both Mulhorand and Unther stand to become monetary powers once again in light of a cleared SoFS. They 'might' even be inclined to stave off hostilities in lieu of these developments (and could even work together to control trade to the east).
ANY of the nations bordering the Inner sea could potentially become far more powerful because of increased trade - you just have to figure-out which you want to take advantage of that situation in your own game (for each of us, this answer would be different).
EDIT: If you fast-forward to the time when the Watercourse canal is built, Sespech could even become a powerful nation because of trade. A clear SoFS coupled with a sea-route to the Lake of steam and the south would create a whole new economic dynamic. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2010 23:54:01 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 00:24:29
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So if waters in the *entire* Sea are safer, then the Golden Way becomes less important, and Mulhorand can make a killing?
Hmmm. My main question was, "who, with the least amount of tweaking, might be able to be in a position to make the waters in the Sea safer in the first place, for the long term? What tweaking would be needed to accomplish that goal? Who would that change in the balance of power upset? What would the short term and middle term repercussions of commerce over the sea being less risky be? What would it take so that country ends up overcoming whatever obstacles that a strong push to police the waves presents to them?"
And... Watercourse? whuuhh?
Okay. lets make this as simple as I can.
Player character born on Sea of Fallen Stars. Player character's family killed by pirates in her backstory. Player character is a very powerful class, in a high power game, in a 'sure, running roughshod over everything, but if you anger something big, you'll have to deal with it' is a somewhat acceptable gamestyle for this campaign, and player character is seeking ways to leave her mark on the face of faerun by basically bringing about an end to the Age of Piracy. What are some of the best ways to accomplish this goal? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 20 Oct 2010 00:39:54 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 02:13:40
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| Were Impiltur's King restored to his throne, I'd say that it's likely that a strong-willed and hot-headed boy king might see taming piracy on the SoFS as not only in keeping with the deeds of his forebears, but great 'fun' besides. Were that to happen, I'd say that an Impilturan/Cormyrian/Sembian alliance could put down major piracy in a trice. To KEEP it down, though, would require one of the aforementioned powers sponsoring a group of settlers on the Pirate Isles. Only a government-sponsored group occupying a series of fortifications throughout the isles' best ports could totally eliminate the ongoing threat of piracy in the SoFS. The obstacle there is that many powerful individuals and families int the above-mentioned states (and others) actually benefit from the continuation of piracy in the SoFS, such as Miklos Selkirk (sp?) who has numerous pirates under his wing, and the Thayans, who the pirates dare not attack, but who make the sea-lanes dangerous for all others. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 03:01:34
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Impiltur's king? Uhhh, where can I find a summary of what you are talking about there? Who is running Impiltur if not a king at 1360-1372?
What if a set of high powered adventurers seriously just killed an extreme amount of pirates in the area, with, you know, scry & teleport tactics? That would mean the nations don't have to actually go around killing lots of pirates -- they just take advantage of the temporary lull in their power to set up something long term to prevent piracy from going back up? IE, nations hold power and land and settle places, and adventurer types simply go around *killing things*, so that nations can do their job?
*Checks*
Is the last few paragraphs of this relevent with regards to kingless years and the regency and such?
http://bertball.com/wiki/index.php/History_of_Impiltur
I'm not sure how accurate that is, I think it might be someone's particular campaign wiki?? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 20 Oct 2010 03:08:07 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 08:31:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
Impiltur's king? Uhhh, where can I find a summary of what you are talking about there? Who is running Impiltur if not a king at 1360-1372?
What if a set of high powered adventurers seriously just killed an extreme amount of pirates in the area, with, you know, scry & teleport tactics? That would mean the nations don't have to actually go around killing lots of pirates -- they just take advantage of the temporary lull in their power to set up something long term to prevent piracy from going back up? IE, nations hold power and land and settle places, and adventurer types simply go around *killing things*, so that nations can do their job?
*Checks*
Is the last few paragraphs of this relevent with regards to kingless years and the regency and such?
http://bertball.com/wiki/index.php/History_of_Impiltur
I'm not sure how accurate that is, I think it might be someone's particular campaign wiki??
Impiltur is governed by a group of knights, and the queen is titular regent AFAIR. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 10:33:48
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| an alliance between Cormyr, Impiltur (dynastic ties) and maybe Procampur and Tantras could make the waters safer, considering how many cities and realms directly or not support piracy I doubt they can be eradicated unless another meteorite hits |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 12:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
Impiltur's king? Uhhh, where can I find a summary of what you are talking about there? Who is running Impiltur if not a king at 1360-1372?
What if a set of high powered adventurers seriously just killed an extreme amount of pirates in the area, with, you know, scry & teleport tactics? That would mean the nations don't have to actually go around killing lots of pirates -- they just take advantage of the temporary lull in their power to set up something long term to prevent piracy from going back up? IE, nations hold power and land and settle places, and adventurer types simply go around *killing things*, so that nations can do their job?
*Checks*
Is the last few paragraphs of this relevent with regards to kingless years and the regency and such?
http://bertball.com/wiki/index.php/History_of_Impiltur
I'm not sure how accurate that is, I think it might be someone's particular campaign wiki??
Impiltur is governed by a group of knights, and the queen is titular regent AFAIR.
Zireal has the right of it. Queen Sambryl is the titular regent, but has little interest in ruling. The realm is governed in practice by the Knights of Imphras II, a council comprised mostly of Paladins. The council is conservative and isolationist to the point of inaction; they took no part in the Damaran war against Zhengyi, nor against the Horde, despite the fact that both events took place in their backyard. The rightful king is in hiding as King Gareth Dragonsbane's squire in Damara, under an assumed name.
All of this is to be found in Champions of Valor (with lots of other Impiltur info in C.of Ruin) and in George Krashos' scroll here at the 'Keep.
As far as your question RE: Adventurers 'romping thru the Isles', well, that's up to the DM, but I'd say that the PC's are going to run afoul of more than just Pirates. For example, Miklos Selkirk has a great many pirates under his aegis, holding them out as a private force he can call on in event of emergency; I'd assume that a Thayvian or two (or a dozen) have boltholes or full-fledged 'hideouts' among the isles; it could even be that the powers of the Moonsea (i.e. Zhentil Keep) support the pirates in some fashion, hoping to encourage more overland trade (which they can raid themselves). In short, even the unlovely, unwashed, and unloved pirates of the SoFS have friends; or at least those that gain from their continued existence. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 20 Oct 2010 12:33:42 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 15:39:50
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Going about trying to quell piracy is a task requiring piety, vigilence, a strong institution of government, and a strong navy.
By having coastal people adhering to a strong moral code the urge to consult to piracy can be suppressed. Historically certain gentleman's agreements were reached with famous pirate lords after they had been converted from paganism to christianity. Realmsian pirate lords similarly have a place as rolemodels for other pirates; swaying them to a benevolent or introspective faith can have a profound influence on pirate activity.
Vigilence can be obtained by improving communications between port cities and coastal holdings, through using birds as animal messengers (through the ranger/druid spell or domestication of pidgeons or ravens). Establishing trade route borders can help predict pirate attack locations, subsequently enabling the search for pirate bases. Recruiting mages for scrying and communication work is a feasable but expensive solution for tracking down pirates.
A strong government can edict new laws, employ harsher penalties and react more swiftly to piracy. By privateering (letting authorities issue them military objectives) those pirates that are willing to comply to certain laws a large part of the pirate population can be absorbed into the legal side of trade and war. By urging the privateers to stay lawful (by suggesting medical aid through a priest who watches their every action) they can even be used to hunt down other pirates. Transgressors among privateers would additionally be treated as prisoners of war. This can reduce the problem to the most violent and damaging pirates refusing to comply. Public convictions can then be used to set examples of how hard pirates will be punished, to show the severance of the issue the rulers assign to piracy. By publicly showing a harsh punishment of a great pirate lord a great blow will be made to the morale of the pirate minded populace.
Building up a navy requires a lot of resources, improvement of ship design, and forming navy tactics. The implied threat of using it enables the coastal cities to have a strong deterrent to pirate raids, but the ships need to be maintained and updated to current naval standards. Some ports may even design special pirate-busing naval vessels suited for just the task of culling down pirates.
The Sea of the Fallen Stars has several candidates that could take on one or two of the above mentioned roles. Cormyr, Thay, Chessenta and Sembia have the strong navies to take on pirates. Sembia and Cormyr have the piety or moral codes to pacify a part of the pirate population. Thay and Cormyr (to a lesser degree) have the magical might to make vigilence easier through scrying and divination. Chessenta, Cormyr and Sembia have a strong system of laws or influential governance capable of making piracy an unfavorable alternative for regular trade.
I don't think all the govermental styles of the above mentioned nations mix that well though. A politcal and economic dance of epic proportions needs to be maintained for several years to pull it all off. Nice idea though!  |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 16:34:53
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You will never be able to completely rid a region of crime simply because anew power - which could actually be worse - will arise to take its place. Crime is part of civilization - the Romans realized this and supported organized crime because it actually keeps common people safer (notice their is almost no crime in Mafia neighborhoods?)
In fact, in the RW, many nations supported piracy and used them as Freebooters - pirates paid to attack their enemies. The United States was the very first nation to refuse to pay-off the pirates and systematically sought them out and destroyed them globally (something that was unheard of, especially considering how young our country was at the time). You know the Marines song that goes "..to the shores of Tripoli"? That's a direct reference to our final battle of eradication against piracy.
In FR, Cormyr would be the Faerunian equivalent of the United States. They would probably be the only nation who would bother to chase pirates into other country's waters. Otherwise, all you have is a large group of highly mobile criminals moving around and away from whoever is bothering them ATM. Only once was there ever a major effort to destroy the Pirates of the Fallen Stars, and Sembia got the worst of it and never really forgave Cormyr (which arrived late for the battle). I forget who the 3rd sea power was in that engagement, but the pirates were able to put aside their differences and provide unified front against their enemies.
So its been tried before. It was partially successful, but at great cost to Sembia. And the pirates just built back up and returned later.
The 'hit & run' tactics you propose would be effective, but it will also galvanize the pirates into cohesive action. I would assume they would hire magical help, and considering they already have ties with Thay it would probably be in the form of Red Wizards.
The balance of power in the Realms is very complex and fragile. Most of the super-powers don't make moves against each other for fear of leaving themselves exposed to other threats, and also of forcing normally friendly neighbors into action against them. No-one wants a neighboring nation to get too powerful, for fear it will try to take them over, even if both are 'goodly' powers (and I use that term VERY loosely - EVERYONE has an agenda).
So what you may end up doing is forcing the Pirates to turn to Thay, which will then galvanize the normally competitive Zulkirs and Tharchions into unified action and provide support for the pirates, which could eventually lead to the SoFS being controlled by Thay.
For a very short time...
Thay is already enemies with most of Faerun, and their own shipping would come under heavy fire, and the other nations would band-together to stop them. It would take awhile though for the rest of the countries to get organized, and even to be aware Thay was helping (controlling?) the pirates at that point. Obviously they would leave no survivors to report back to others there were Red Wizards aboard pirate vessels.
So that situation might take years to come to a head, depending on how quickly your party's actions are able to dominate the pirates, and how quickly the Red Wizards (who benefit from piracy) would come to their aid. A Blitzkrieg-style attack on them might put them out of commission before the Thayans could stop arguing and react.
Considering the slow and deliberate take-over of the Wizard's Reach cities by Thay, you might be able to find an ally in the Simbul of Aglarond if the Thayans do help the Pirates. I'm sure she is not too happy with them controlling the Wizard's Reach sea lanes. They've also been helping Unther against Mulhorand - another potential ally (although I'm not sure how much help an ancient and decrepit empire will afford you). At the very least they can have their troops do 'war games' near the Thayan border (building up near an enemy is a proven effective tactic in distraction).
You would also have to keep your actions secret, and Red Wizards are damn good at divination magic. Once found out, they will try to strike at your friends and family. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Oct 2010 16:40:54 |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 17:13:29
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My *Rashemi* Druid has no problem pissing off Thayans and harming them and their shipping....
I assume a ring of continuous Mind Blank (with a Wilding Clasp so it's effective in wild shape form, for her, and just a normal ring for each of the rest of the party) would overcome most divination effects? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 17:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
Is the last few paragraphs of this relevent with regards to kingless years and the regency and such?
http://bertball.com/wiki/index.php/History_of_Impiltur
I'm not sure how accurate that is, I think it might be someone's particular campaign wiki??
My article on Impiltur in Dragon#346 gives the best up to date look at the kingdom. I agree that young Imbrar II would likely be keen to test his mettle against the pirates of the Inner Sea when he takes the throne in 1374 DR, but until then Impiltur wouldn't be interested in dealing with the pirate menace save on a local scale.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 20:55:24
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| Oh, thanks, I'll go take a look at that article! *Reads replies again, trying to digest* Wow, FR politics is *complicated*! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 23:22:43
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| If the character in question is both female and hates pirates, she could enlist the help of the She-Wolves mercenary company and the Isle of Ixinos. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 08:43:56
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Do a word search here at the keep for Ixinos.
Edit: or just click the link in my Sig |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 21 Oct 2010 08:51:42 |
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Geopolitical balance in Sea of Fallen Stars ~1360?
