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Ayrik
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Canada
6899 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2011 :  07:56:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol, yes ... the date is officially fixed, but the actual significance is only suggested. As Gray said, we don't know that the illithid refugees were actually fleeing a wave of Gith's revolution/genocide, even though it's a very reasonable explanation. No better date seems to be available.

[/Ayrik]
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2011 :  12:59:49  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, here is some ballpark figuring I came up with to estimate the time back to the Gith revolt.

157 rulers all named Vlaakith, taking their name from the first.
The most recent Lich Queen, Vlaakith 157 ruled about 1000 years by the time of 1372 DR, the start of the 3e campaign setting. We are told that she is by far the longest ruling Vlaakith. So that puts a definitive upper maximum of 157,000 years ago for the revolt, but that is probably a gross over estimation.

Vlaakith CLVI, who was also a lich we are told in Dragon 355, had a rebellion during the 6th century of her rule which eventually ended in her death at the hands of the first devourer. Because the lore does not say she ruled more than 600 years, we will make the assumption that she died sometime during her 500's. Lets estimate 550 (plus or minus 49 years).

Now, the first Vlaakith had to grow to adulthood and gain some measure of experience so that she could become Gith's right-hand woman and be in position to take over when Gith disappeared. So lets assume she was middle aged when that happened.

Expanded Psionics Handbook p.16 gives the vital statistics for Githyanki. It is roughly equivalent to humans. Githyanki reach middle age at age 35. They are old at 50, venerable at 70, and from there live a max of 2d20 years. Which makes their average life expectancy 91 years.

Average starting age for a Githyanki is 15 +1d4 years or an average of 17.5 years.

So lets assume the average reign of each Vlaakith from Vlaakith II to Vlaakith CLV was 91 years average end less 17.5 years average start for an average total reigning years of 73.5 years.

Multiply 73.5 years by 154 Vlaakiths (Vlaakiths II to CLV) = 11,319 years.
Plus the reign of Vlaakith I = 91 years less 35 years at start = 56 year.
Plus Vlaakith CLVI = estimated 550 years.
Plus Vlaakith CLVII = 1000 years.

That gives us a grand total of 12,925 years (ballpark).
Subtract that from 1372 DR (the year that the 3e Campaign Setting began) and that gives us an approximate date of -11,553 DR for the Githyanki revolt.

Which is about 500 years prior to the settling of Oryndoll by illithid refugees. That's practically contemporaneous, given the roughness of our estimates--well within the ballpark.

But there are margins of error to consider. And they are quite wide on both ends. As the Vlaakiths were all very evil and war-like, it is likely that many took the throne by intrigue or when their predecessor died in battle. Some Vlaakiths may have lasted only a couple of years, months, weeks, or even a few scant days. Others may have lasted to their maximum age.

So let's consider a bell curve for average reign length ranging from 0 years starting at 16 (minimum starting age of 15+1) to maximum life expectancy of 110 (70+2d20). Assuming for the sake of argument that the mid-point of the bell curve falls in the exact middle, the average reign (or would it be the median reign?) would be 47 years.

Under that assumption, 47x154 Vlaakiths = 7238 years

Now, add in 1600 years for Vlaakiths I, CLVI and CLVII (I'm just going to round to 1600 for simplicity's sake for the rest of this post, estimating reigns of 50, 550, and 1000 years respectively for the first and last 2 Vlaakiths) and that gives us 8838 years ago, or roughly -7466 DR as a low end figure, or most recent, reasonable dating for the revolt. If you estimate an even higher rate of death by misadventure, war, disease, poison, and assassination, that pulls the date ever more recent.

Just for comparison, I count 72 English monarchs from 829 AD to 2011 AD, so dividing 1182 years by 72 monarchs, yields an average reign of 16.42 years for English heads of state (including the Houses of Wessex, Denmark, and 2 Lords Protector). 154 Vlaakiths x 16.42 = 2528 + 1600 = 4128 years ago, or roughly -2756 DR. That's getting pretty near the low end.

Although, if we assume an even greater degree of Vlaakith underhandedness, we could push the average reign even shorter still. But to get to the 2,000 years ago estimate proposed in one sourcebook, you would have to assume an average reign of only 2.6 years. That seems rather unlikely, though. I think the 2,000 years ago estimate is probably way wrong. Unless of course you consider that the war may have been fought through time travel, in which case the war could have started 2,000 years ago and been waged backward through time, ending several thousand years previous to when it started. This scenario cannot be ruled out, as the illithids are thought to have originally colonized the past from a far future date, at the end of time.

Now, having considered the low end, what's the high end? Well, as mentioned above, Vlaakith CLVII was the longest reigning at 1000 years. I don't know where I read it, and I may be misremembering, but I thought I read somewhere that Vlaakith CLVI was the second longest reigning Vlaakith. Though the exact length of her reign cannot be determined, let's put it at an upper end of 600 years.

Note that the Astral Plane is timeless. Which means that as long as you stay in the Astral, you do not age. So there is no effective maximum age limit for Githyanki. Except that, when you leave the Astral, you instantly "catch up" to your real chronological age. Thus any Githyanki that lives past 110 years who leaves the Astral should (barring magical protection) instantly age past her death. So theoretically, if we ignore the max age limit, and assume that all the Vlaakiths lived 600 years, except for the last at 1000, that gives us a figure of 94,000 years ago max for the revolt.

But I am assuming the last 2 lich-queens became liches exactly for the reason that they wanted the ability to leave the Astral without dying. Mortal queens older than 110 years could not travel to other planes or lead their troops in battle. A simple plane shift spell could kill them, and probably accounted for the deaths of several early Vlaakiths.

I don't think any other Vlaakiths became lichs. The only 2 we know of are the last 2. The Guide to the Astral Plane says that Vlaakith CLVII was the only lich. But Dragon 355 states that Vlaakith CLVI was also a lich. Assuming that no other Vlaakiths achieved lichdom, they probably reigned for shorter periods due to death by unnatural causes.

So there are a lot of variables, giving us ranges from 2000 years ago, to 157,000 years ago and various numbers inbetween.

But a very reasonable estimate puts the revolt around 13,000 years ago. Rip Van Wormer suggests a different dating of around 14,000 years ago based on the Athas timeline. Athas saw the first use of psionic powers by the races of the Rebirth around 13950 years ago. The Dark Sun module Black Spine suggests that the development of psionic powers on Athas may have been due to psionic bombs set off by Githzerai in their war with the Githyanki. This is not presented as fact in the module, but rather in the context of "Scholars who hear this story may wonder whether these psionic devastators might have something to do with the development of psionics in Athas... No one knows for sure." But, just for the sake of argument, if we assume that psionics on Athas were a result of the Githzerai/Githyanki schism (that happened after the illithid revolt), that would put the Gith revolt around -12,580 DR. Almost 1600 years before the founding of Oryndoll in -11,000 DR.

Now, if Realmspace is a relative backwater of the multiverse, then it might indeed have taken the Gith 1600 years travelling between crystal spheres, waging their rebellion on every planet across the far-flung reaches of the illithid empire to get to Glyth. But we cannot necessarily assume that time flows at a 1 to 1 rate between Athas and Faerūn. Even a slight difference in time flow could accumulate significantly over thousands of years. This could account for the difference in datings between crystal spheres.

It's not even clear that there is ANY correspondence between dates across universes. For instance Elminster has a portal that connects to Earth in Yellowstone Park circa 1894. This indicates that portals between universes/spheres may synchronize to certain dates merely as a convention, not as any kind of absolute objective correspondence. It may simply be a function of the time coordinate used in the spell, with different spells linking to different dates, just as the spatial coordinates link them to different locations.

And that's not even considering that the Githzerai & Githyanki could have fought each other by means of the time-war technology mentioned above.

There's one other piece of compelling evidence that suggests that Realmspace is not the last place that Gith fought illithids. Quite the opposite. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that Gith's rebellion started in Realmspace on the planet Glyth, the 6th planet in Toril's solar system. The Guide to the Astral Plane suggests that Gith was named after her homeworld. While the names Gith and Glyth are not exactly alike, they sound enough alike that it is conceivable they were originally the same word that has diverged over the course of 12,000 years through linguistic drift. Or possibly they are the same word with slightly different grammatical declension, for instance the "l" infix might indicate a genitive case, or location marker.

I don't know of any worlds named "Gith." But Glyth seems like it could be a viable candidate for Gith's homeworld. I find it an intriguing possibility that Oryndoll was founded as a direct result of illithids fleeing the very first uprising of Glyth slaves under the leadership of Gith, and spread out to the rest of the universe from Realmspace.
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Ayrik
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Canada
6899 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2011 :  15:36:16  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gray —

First:

Ye rock, man! Surely ye already know this; but still ye have earned props, kudos, gratz, and my sincerely heartfelt thanx for undertaking and offering such a surprisingly comprehensive analysis toward my puzzling query. Ye are indeed a Master of Realmslore, one of the finest caliber whose sagacity in such matters I consider on par with such luminaries as Krashos, Grubb, James/James, Boyd, Schend, Shemmy, and the legendary Greenwood himself. Yer canon is of the purest sort, mayhap more accurate (and palatable) than even the most official offerings presented by TSR-Wizbro. (Some of this suck-up is overlap from other scrolls of impressive Graylore ye've not been thanked for. )

Second:

I shall accept the date of Gith's revolt being conclusively set to -11,553DR (for now, lol). The other dates and ranges ye've calculated are quite plausible but I fear involve more arbitrary variable assignments and assumptions than I can readily accept; the law of averages suggests this first date imposes the least error.

I am also inclined to think ye have been slightly conservative in estimating the "average" term of Vlaakith regency; I suspect these Vlaakiths and thus their reigns would have been suddenly truncated with great frequency by their inhumanly competitive and competent Githyanki societies. Thus the actual date might be some centuries or even a few millennia more recent, yet impossible to calculate with greater precision.

Third:

I have recently examined a vast number of other D&D chronology attempts, most of which are incomplete, inaccurate, poorly researched, unique homebrew, or rampantly speculative.

However, A Temporal Chronology of the Primes (by Brian James), Forgotten Realms Timeline (by Krashos and others), A Spelljammer Timeline - revised (by GMWestermeyer), and - just for completeness - Known Chronological Listing of Realms Novels (by Boyd, Greenwood, Schend, and "The Candlekeep Monks") are all very well done and might assist ye in many projects. I suspect the first and last are likely used as the primary "official" sources for Wizbro's D&D designers and authors. I've noted numerous references to Githy stuff which I haven't yet correlated.

Fourth:

I hadn't considered Dark Sun crossdating at all, though that's a smart strategy and there are some specific Athas Gith details (earlier in this scroll) which might provide some concrete reference points. Somebody suggested to me that some additional tidbits might be gleaned from lore concerning (red) dragons.

I've been combing through certain Monstrous Arcana tomes (The Illithiad, A Darkness Gathering, Masters of Eternal Night, and Dawn of the Overmind) because they contain and reference Gith Forerunners. I still haven't purchased Paizo's Tu'narath City Guide, nor received my copy of Polyhedron #159, nor gained access to Dragon #309, but once I add these to my existing lore the secrets of the Gith Incursion (and Gith Forerunners) will be fully revealed. I do not maintain a DDI subscription so I might be unaware of non-print issues which include interesting Gith lore.

Dungeons #116, #159 (which I mentioned earlier in this scroll) do feature a Githyanki lich, though he's no Vlaakith.

Ye'd considered an important detail that I'd completely overlooked: the differing timeflow across the planes. This could be complicated by the fact that this particular property of the Astral has been redefined several times across D&D game editions. A similar problem exists with timeflow for the Githzerai native to Limbo/Chaos. I'm deciding that (unless explicitly stated otherwise with canon examples) there's no need to complicate the issue to meaningless insanity by involving chronomancy and time travel, even though I agree these were possibly accessible to the Githyanki. I'm also assuming that (again, unless canon states otherwise) timeflow between most places is essentially 1:1 (at least insofar as Toril, Oerth, Krynn, and Sigil) just to keep things in simplest form.

I'm not convinced that Glyth is necessarily the origin of Gith's rebellion. It seems to me that it would have occurred somewhere closer to the lost Forerunner homeworld of "Pharagos" or "Penumbra" or Vlaakith's throne. My opinion is that Realmspace is too populated and widely travelled (and policed by divine powers) to have been Gith's starting point. I suspect that (even with their inherent planeshifting abilities, which the Gith may not have yet had) this rebellion would require time to reach distant worlds (of which there were apparently many). The illithid migration circa -11,000DR would probably represent when Gith's Rebellion reached Realmspace ... or more precisely, when the illithids fled a serious Gith threat (which may have been some years before or after the Giths arrived). Still, I do not know much about this event, so I shall read more in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark.

The Sojourner claimed (in 1370DR) to be "over 10,000 years old" ... 10,000 is a nice round number and he might reasonably be, say, 11,548+1d4 years old, or 12,533 years old, etc. But I suspect he would have stated 9,000 ("nearly 10,000") or 15,000 or 50,000 years if such were applicable. Then again, it's also reasonable to expect such a long-lived being might be affected by antediluvian senility, have spent indeterminate periods of time in timeless/unaging stasis, been shifted around through chronomancies, or be accurately reporting his subjective age (which might differ from his chronological age if considerations such as planar mechanics and divine fiat are involved).

Finally:

The Expanded Psionics Handbook is apparently not part of my library. Which D&D edition? Which publisher? This 3.5E WotC book? Does it contain substantial lore about the Giths? (That is, lore which is not found elsewhere?)

I ask a small favour: can ye please reproduce the Githyanki (Githzerai, Githcetera) aging tables here? Perhaps also height/weight and similar character generation tables if these exist?

My thanx again.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Mar 2011 18:27:02
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Ayrik
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Canada
6899 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2011 :  18:45:49  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another (double-barreled) question — did or do the giths have any access to Abeir?

[/Ayrik]
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  09:09:18  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would think not. Abeir appears to be a pocket dimension out of phase with Toril. Abeir was set aside for the exclusive use of the primordials. But the Astral is home to the gods. There's ample reason to believe that Abeir was segregated from Toril's Astral altogether, I doubt that Abeir even had an Astral, or if it did, it would have to be a separate one all it's own, or possibly a locked off, segregated section of Toril's Astral. But if I had to bet, I'd place my money on Abeir not even having an Astral at all.

You could maybe make the argument that Abeir attaches/ed to the same Elemental Chaos/Planes, possibly connected through the Ethereal. But not the Astral.

There wouldn't be any color pools in Toril's Astral that led to Abeir.

Toril's planewalkers are sophisticated enough that they would have found a way to travel between the two worlds long ago had it been possible. The fact that Abeir was totally forgotten or unknown indicates to me that travel between the two was simply not possible.
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Hawkins
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USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  15:31:57  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really wish they would flesh out Abeir lore. I think that would make the acceptance of it easier. (Or maybe they have in DDI articles, and since I do not have the money to pay for something focusing on a rules set that I do not use, I just do not know about any fleshed out details.)

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
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* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hawkins
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2130 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  16:23:39  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik

The Expanded Psionics Handbook is apparently not part of my library. Which D&D edition? Which publisher? This 3.5E WotC book? Does it contain substantial lore about the Giths? (That is, lore which is not found elsewhere?)
I think the 3.x resources with the most about the Githyanki are Dragon Issue #309 and Dungeon Issue #100. Also, IIRC, the Planar Handbook (but not the Manual of the Planes) had a bit on both races. I will try to look over my copy of the XPH to see what info is in there as well.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1959 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  22:54:58  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Race_____Mid. Age_____Old_____Venerable_____Max. Age
Githyanki___35 years______50 years__70 years_____+2d20 years
Githzerai___35 years______55 years__80 years_____+2d20 years

XPH pp 16

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 30 Mar 2011 23:01:08
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Ayrik
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Canada
6899 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  23:01:07  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome, thanx Fellfire. I assume start ages are 15+1d4 years for both?

I'd strangely assumed that, like pretty much everything else with a brain in D&D, the giths would outlive humans. Though I think it's fair to say that relatively few giths (or D&D humans) die in bed.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Mar 2011 23:03:47
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1959 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2011 :  23:03:04  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Starting Age varies a little from class to class, but yes, 15 years is considered Adulthood.

Barbarian, Rogue, Sorcerer, Soulknife, Wilder - +1d4
Bard, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Psychic Warrior - +1d6
Cleric, Druid, Monk, Psion, Wizard - +2d6

for both races.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 30 Mar 2011 23:06:57
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2011 :  00:15:00  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not meaning to quibble, just pointing out that adulthood starts at 16, because the minimum dice roll will always be at least a 1, so minimum starting age can't be less than 15+1=16. (Except for Cleric, Druid, Monk, Psion, Wizard, with their +2d6 adding at least a minimum of 2 to their base which will be at least 17--I guess they need an extra year of maturity or studies before they can begin.)
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Gray Richardson
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USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2011 :  00:47:14  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, not to complicate things, but the Planewalkers' Handbook gives a different age table for the Githzerai than that presented in the XPH. Though I should mention the Githyanki stats (I believe) have never been presented anywhere other than the XPH.

However, in the Planewalkers' Handbook it states that starting age for Githzerai is base 30 +2d8 variable; Middle age is 125; Old is 167; Venerable is 250; and Maximum age is 250 +1d100.

I don't know how to explain the discrepancy between the 2e and 3e lore. It could be that the 2e lore is simply deemed incorrect and replaced or corrected by the 3e lore. But another possible explanation is that perhaps the 2e lore represents Githzerai who live natively in Limbo in the presence of their Wizard-King. They need to train longer to learn how to manipulate the chaos of that plane, and undergo their monastic training. And perhaps through that training and lifestyle they have extended their lifespan, living longer as a special consequence of learning the techniques to force their will upon Limbo and shape reality. The XPH stats, on the other hand, may be the natural racial lifespan for Githzerai who leave Limbo and go adventuring. They may age more quickly because they must endure more regular time flows without the ability to control and warp reality that their home-plane brethren have access to.

I double checked, and Manual of the Planes lists Limbo as having normal time flow. However, it may be that time flow in Limbo is subject to change by experienced controllers and those with anarch abilities.

The plane of Warrior's Rest, where the Githzerai live in Toril's Cosmology is similarly highly morphic and subject to a similar kind of control as can be exerted in the Great Wheel plane of Limbo.
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Fellfire
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Posted - 31 Mar 2011 :  04:52:00  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. I did not replicate the table itself since it is somewhat unwieldy, especially with no tab key. Under the Adulthood column for Gith and Gith 15 years is the number given. It could be argued that an adult is an adult no matter their chosen profession. If Starting Age is a better word for ye, use that instead. Glean from it what you will.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 31 Mar 2011 04:54:02
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Ayrik
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Canada
6899 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2011 :  06:42:24  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The aging table for 2E githzerai PCs (which I had forgotten about) is probably where my notion of gith longevity originated. I suspect the 2E/3E discrepencies are an accidental oversight or a deliberate attempt to bring the giths to human-like scales. Gray's speculation to explain this discrepency is good, but I'm not sure I can accept it, lol.

Giths on Warrior's Rest? Seriously?

Fellfire, thanx for the detail, it actually helps me a lot. But ... gith barbarians, druids, and bards? I hate to bring up such a general question, but would giths and gishes seem more inclined toward sorcery or wizardry?

[/Ayrik]
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1959 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2011 :  12:38:57  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To say nothing of paladins and clerics. I also think one psionic class could've conveyed the idea, but what do I know?

Still, there are many other races represented there, but I think it is needlessly complicated. Perhaps it makes a big difference in some of the more structured caste-type societies. In any case, I'm glad it is helpful.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 31 Mar 2011 12:56:04
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Lady Morbannaon
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Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  19:13:33  Show Profile  Visit Lady Morbannaon's Homepage  Send Lady Morbannaon an AOL message  Click to see Lady Morbannaon's MSN Messenger address Send Lady Morbannaon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to jump in briefly (and I will admit I've not had chance to sit and read this whole discussion) at these guys (Githzerai & Githyanki) OGL? O was going to start another discussion to ask this...but since this topic is here I thought I'd sneakily ask!
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Hawkins
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Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  20:11:24  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Morbannaon

Just to jump in briefly (and I will admit I've not had chance to sit and read this whole discussion) at these guys (Githzerai & Githyanki) OGL? O was going to start another discussion to ask this...but since this topic is here I thought I'd sneakily ask!
Unfortunately, no,they (along with the Illithid/Mind Flayer) are not OGL.

Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane

* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives

My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Lady Morbannaon
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Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  21:36:09  Show Profile  Visit Lady Morbannaon's Homepage  Send Lady Morbannaon an AOL message  Click to see Lady Morbannaon's MSN Messenger address Send Lady Morbannaon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah I didn't think they were but it's been a while since I've gone through the OGL stuff so couldn't quite remember - thanks!
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Ayrik
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Canada
6899 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  23:38:03  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC's 3.5E SRD explicitly names the githyanki and githzerai (and by extension any other gith races) as their "exclusive product identity" (ie, trademarked intellectual property), compliant with OGL 1.0a legal conditions, as outlined in the legal.rtf component, readable here.
Official SRD download site.
quote:
Arik (here)

I've also discovered a scroll from the EN World archives ... It mentions some non-canonical gith races: githzada, githtorai, githgagra, githduros/dakeen, and githilid ... all seemingly lost to folded publishers and dead weblinks. Does anyone have any lore about lost gith races?
However, these (and possibly other) gith races appeared in OGL while the 3.0E SRD was in effect, prior to the 3.5E SRD (product identity) legal amendments. I could find little other than names for these races; if they even exist it would be in long out of print 3.0E books by now extinct publishers. I'd love to know more about these races and these books.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Apr 2011 23:56:51
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Lady Morbannaon
Seeker

United Kingdom
42 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2011 :  23:55:06  Show Profile  Visit Lady Morbannaon's Homepage  Send Lady Morbannaon an AOL message  Click to see Lady Morbannaon's MSN Messenger address Send Lady Morbannaon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arik I'd love to know more about these races and these books.



I did a little digging (er...well I do mean a tiny amount it is kind of late over here) and came up with this link which might help source the books that they were in (at least some of them anyway)

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/94051-third-gith-race-githvyrik-2.html
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6899 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2011 :  00:37:51  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol, thanx LM ... that's the same EN World link I already provided (twice). The results of my exhaustive research:

  • Githzada and githduros appear to be entirely unknown to the internet (or at least to google, the big metasearch engines, and the searchable wayback archives) ... beyond what is said of them in that EN World scroll and in this one.

  • Githtorai are briefly mentioned (by a lost/unknown poster) in the Mystara Realms-L Archives, and in this anonymous Illithid Player Character pdf download.

  • Githgagra are briefly described (by their author, wizbane75@h..., as part of his Illithid Empire Campaign) in a yahoo Maps/Gods/Stories scroll. They are mentioned by ripvanwormer in the planewalker Githlist archives scroll (I've already attempted to contact ripvanwormer for more information). They are also briefly mentioned in this Russian scroll.

  • Gith'ilid are fully described in this planewalker wiki page and appear scattered throughout the planewalker and Candlekeep archives. Again, for some odd reason, they're quite popular with the Russians.

  • [/Ayrik]

    Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Apr 2011 00:44:13
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    Fellfire
    Master of Realmslore

    1959 Posts

    Posted - 14 Apr 2011 :  01:04:25  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Jumpin' Blue Jellyfish, Arik. I can't find a thing about Fiend Games, Project Planeshifter or Gaming Frontiers beyond the fact that they once existed. I was pretty thorough.

    Misanthorpe

    Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

    "Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

    Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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