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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2010 :  04:00:14  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm compiling a rather long list of references to the Fey in the area of the Moonsea North currently...and I'd appreciate anything anyone has to offer regarding it.

I don't care if it is home-brew or canon...lets have it.

Whether it ties the area to Mars, ancient Egypt or what have you...I don't care.

Fire away please!

AD&D for me!

Snowblood
Senior Scribe

Australia
388 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2010 :  14:33:20  Show Profile Send Snowblood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
when you say Fey...can you be more specific?????

Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2010 :  17:20:58  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I should say Faerie, Elves, Centaurs...anything.

AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2010 :  19:01:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
HOMBREW:

The centaurs were originally a tribe of Eladrin who took that form as sort-of cavalry to defend Titania's Realm, and were lead by their forbear Skerritōnis. They were amongst the early 'settlers' that titania ordered to go forth in the mortal world and pave the way for her children.

The small Fey come in two varieites: Faeries (pixies), and Haltija (Gnomes). The Faeries encompass all the diminutive, (normally) winged type, and the Haltija encompass the small brownies and their ilk. Faeries have diverged into dozens of sub-species, but the Haltija have diverged in HUNDREDS of sub-species. Both groups lost the majority of their feywild-granted powers, including shape-change (although a few varieties maintain it to some extent, like changing size), so they are pretty-much 'stuck' in their forms. Rumor has it that all fey could take the form of any other fey at one time, and if one were to spend an extended period within the Feywild these abilities would slowly come back.

Some Sages believe that Prime Material Gnomes are the result of Haltija breeding with dwarves, but there is no evidence of this. Others also believe that Halfings are the result of similar breeding (with humans), but that theory is even less well-received then that about the Gnomes. Although most Gnomes do not deny their fey heritage, the Halflings are adamant that they are their own completely separate race.

Before the Fey retreated into the Feywild they were beings of pure energy (spirits), and could take any physical form they wished, simply by drawing upon the power of the earth. After the affair of the Black Diamond, they severed their link with Toril's energies and moved to the Feywild, where they established a rapport with that plane's own energy-field. It is not know weather the Fey created the Feywild, or merely discovered it and named it after themselves, or some combination of both, and the Le'Shay (Fey Elders) are not telling.

In any case, they were forced to take physical forms permanently, though the ones that live in the Feywild can still alter their shape any way they choose. Although giving up their non-corporeal forms made them more susceptible to injury and even death, they gained many benefits from the Feywild and feel it was a worthwhile compromise.

All of the current groups of Fairies and Haltija dwelling in the Prime material have specialized, focusing on one or two particular abilities from their once-vast repertoire, simply because their connection to the Feywild is intermittent and they no longer have the power to maintain multiple abilities.

One particular group of note are the Goblins - they were a clan of Unseelie Haltija that followed Gruumsh out of Faerie, many years before the Eladrin did likewise. The term 'Goblin' is an ancient derogatory slang Fey term for 'ugly brute', and at one time many of the Unseelie were referred to thusly (hence the umbrella term 'Goblinoids' used by humans and others).

All homebrew, mind you.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Oct 2010 04:04:11
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2010 :  01:36:02  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it!

AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2010 :  04:42:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No one has mentioned Faeries, by Bastion Press, a wonderful 3.x book that our own Steven Schend worked on!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2010 :  05:06:07  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd also recommend a search of the designer-reply archives here at Candlekeep for some further brief input on the content of that tome from Sage Schend himself.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2010 :  05:43:35  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

No one has mentioned Faeries, by Bastion Press, a wonderful 3.x book that our own Steven Schend worked on!



Thanks for the tip...

Amazon has only one left in stock it says...and for a hefty markup over the listed price on Bastion Press' website.

Heading over to eBay.

EDIT: I was hasty...Amazon has one...there were other sellers too for decent priciing.

AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 09 Oct 2010 05:44:54
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2010 :  05:46:51  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

No one has mentioned Faeries, by Bastion Press, a wonderful 3.x book that our own Steven Schend worked on!



Thanks for the tip...

Amazon has only one left in stock it says...and for a hefty markup over the listed price on Bastion Press' website.

Heading over to eBay.

EDIT: I was hasty...Amazon has one...there were other sellers too for decent priciing.

You can try nobleknight.com as well. They usually have one or two reasonably-priced second hand copies in stock.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe

Australia
388 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2010 :  14:42:25  Show Profile Send Snowblood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
don't forget Border Forest Elves of Rystal Wood, snow elves of southern high ice....

Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2010 :  16:33:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I imagine that Toril's 'planer boundaries' (which I dub 'the veil') are quite a bit thinner then most other worlds. I had lore pertaining to that for several years now, and the 4e split of Abeir and Toril actually helped that piece of Homebrew. The Primordials, with the help of their progenitors (Elder Gods), created the Spheres from the body of Ymir (thus creating the Prime material).

Ao (being something akin to an 'Elder Primordial') did not have the power (alone) to create a new sphere from scratch, so he had to borrow material from Realmspace's 'shell' to construct the new world.

Which is why it's planer boundaries are thinner, and also why the 'cosmic energies' of the universe are much more potent in Realmspace. Its like a world with little or no Ozone Layer, and the UV rays are so intense that folks can't exist without protection (which is the Weave, in Toril's case).

Okay, now I can finally get to my point, which Snowblood's post gave rise to.

The 'protective layer' that surrounds Toril - the invisible 'magical' boundary that keeps the icky stuff out of the Prime Material - is not uniform either. Now, this may have been Ao's doing because of the expediency with which he was forced to act, or it may have been due to tampering. Personally I think it is a little of both, with certain Arcane Empires having discovered natural 'weak spots' and took advantage of them, and by frequent use 'frayed' the edges of reality (basically, thy tore the holes bigger). There is a vast area of the Taan that is exceptionally weak, which is why it was ideal for for the Imaskari to develop their translocational magic there, and why the Raumathar and Narfell Empires were able to summon extra-planer beings so well, and also why it was the region the interloping Shou appeared in (simple logistics - you penetrate a target at its weakest point).

In fact, The Godwall may have been a way the Imaskar tried to bolster the weakening 'veil', and perhaps the barrier against the gods was only a side-effect. Controversial, I know, but think on it - perhaps the cause and effect were reversed. When the Imaskari saw that they had 'blocked the gods themselves', imagine the hubris they must have felt entitled to!

ANYHOW, although the Taan is the best-known (and by far the largest) 'thin spot', hundreds of others exist all throughout Toril, and I suspect a decent-sized one exists in the Tortured Land (perhaps that entire area). Fey creatures are far more likely to congregate in or near such places so they can access the Feywild easier (Fey-blooded creatures do not need a spell in such places to cross The Veil).

On the other side of The Veil is our old (now forgotten) Ethereal Plane. Some Sages refer to it as 'The Wood Between he Worlds', while others call it 'the Mittlemarch' (borrowed from Michael Moorcock). In spheres with a more 'scientific' bent, some call it 'the Cosmic Crossroads'... but its all the same place. Technically it is just the Border-Ethereal, and many creatures call it home (most magical creatures can see into it, as can mortals with 'the Sight'). The Scholars of Faerun have even taking to calling it 'The Great Tree' since the Avatar Crisis. Regardless, from that point a being can access a plethora of other planes - the planer barriers that exist elsewhere are absent in the Border Ethereal.

It is near those sites - where the Ethereal boundary is weakest - that Fey creatures are known to dwell in great numbers. To maintain their Fey abilities they need access to the Feywild, else they become completely mortal. Many of the larger weak-points are guarded by powerful extra-planer beings summoned by the Fey and others. The Grandfather Tree was one such, as is that 'creature' that was encountered in the novel Frostfell (sorry, not near sources).

Hope that helps- just another little piece of my vast fey lore - I've been working on it for 30+ years (I was charged with writing a supplement for a game Company called Fantasy Games Unlimited), and have been adapting it to each setting I run (hence the 'universal-ness' of all my lore).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Oct 2010 16:48:13
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Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2010 :  20:05:01  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Netherese arcanist Barze build a pyramid near Phlan to communicate with the Spellweaver galactic empire, the spellweavers were overthrown by the natives on Mars. The Martians took the spelljammer fleet through the gate in the Face of Mars pyramid and attacked Netheril, bringing down the sky city of Ghaethluntar. Martian fleet was frozen in the Great Glacier by the Forgotten Folk.

z455t
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2010 :  01:45:00  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Netherese arcanist Barze build a pyramid near Phlan to communicate with the Spellweaver galactic empire, the spellweavers were overthrown by the natives on Mars. The Martians took the spelljammer fleet through the gate in the Face of Mars pyramid and attacked Netheril, bringing down the sky city of Ghaethluntar. Martian fleet was frozen in the Great Glacier by the Forgotten Folk.





What in the nine hells? This IS a thread on Fey in the area mate.

AD&D for me!
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2010 :  08:40:57  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Netherese arcanist Barze build a pyramid near Phlan to communicate with the Spellweaver galactic empire, the spellweavers were overthrown by the natives on Mars. The Martians took the spelljammer fleet through the gate in the Face of Mars pyramid and attacked Netheril, bringing down the sky city of Ghaethluntar. Martian fleet was frozen in the Great Glacier by the Forgotten Folk.





What in the nine hells? This IS a thread on Fey in the area mate.



But still; I am glad this was posted. John Carter vs Shade is a novel I would read.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2010 :  10:26:40  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't contribute much, only done a few minor changes in the area. Dalor you mentioned Mars, so I guess we can post any crazy theory.

In my Realms during the ice age, Toril was a cold wasteland covered with ashes of dead gods. The frost fey were the first who re-settled the world, after the Frost Sprite King's rebellion against Auril. They built megalithic, crystal and glacial structures in the High Ice to restore the natural balance of the world. Ulutiu, who was a sort of proto-Tyr-like spirit of the Ice Hunters, summoned uldras of the frost fey to teach them the secrets of cryomancy, as a form of protection against the floods. There was a schism in the frost fey society over whether the megafauna released from the ice should be hunted down. Tarsellis Meunniduin allied with the ancestors of the Snow Cat tribe. Mythical snow elves were eventually extinct among the human population, leaving bloodline traces, like the neanderthals, among the Snow People of Thar. The madness of Auril followed the frost fey, who fought wars of ice and fire against the elder drow of Svartalfheim. The elder drow were ''burned out'' and retreated to the south.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2010 :  11:04:01  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

I can't contribute much, only done a few minor changes in the area. Dalor you mentioned Mars, so I guess we can post any crazy theory.

In my Realms during the ice age, Toril was a cold wasteland covered with ashes of dead gods. The frost fey were the first who re-settled the world, after the Frost Sprite King's rebellion against Auril. They built megalithic, crystal and glacial structures in the High Ice to restore the natural balance of the world. Ulutiu, who was a sort of proto-Tyr-like spirit of the Ice Hunters, summoned uldras of the frost fey to teach them the secrets of cryomancy, as a form of protection against the floods. There was a schism in the frost fey society over whether the megafauna released from the ice should be hunted down. Tarsellis Meunniduin allied with the ancestors of the Snow Cat tribe. Mythical snow elves were eventually extinct among the human population, leaving bloodline traces, like the neanderthals, among the Snow People of Thar. The madness of Auril followed the frost fey, who fought wars of ice and fire against the elder drow of Svartalfheim. The elder drow were ''burned out'' and retreated to the south.



This is great. In some way this version of the Realms should in some way be collected. In any case I will have to resist stealing this, it would work very well as a substitute for the (in my opinion) horribly boring Great Glacier lore.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2010 :  18:33:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OMFG...

I had about three pages of text here...

Accidentally erased it all, and cntrl Z did not work.

Time to shoot myself - it was, perhaps, one of my finest pieces (if I do say so myself).

I need a drink...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1757 Posts

Posted - 12 Oct 2010 :  21:40:41  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

This is great. In some way this version of the Realms should in some way be collected. In any case I will have to resist stealing this, it would work very well as a substitute for the (in my opinion) horribly boring Great Glacier lore.


thanks, I'm glad you'd consider stealing it

a lot of way too homebrew parts were cut off, e.g. Tarsellis was Malar's, or the immoths from Planescape etc., I'd take a lot to explain

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

OMFG...

I had about three pages of text here...

Accidentally erased it all, and cntrl Z did not work.

Time to shoot myself - it was, perhaps, one of my finest pieces (if I do say so myself).

I need a drink...



Few days ago I was writing the whole fey-elder elves history then they shut off the power in the street , usually the browser saves it. I know you had a lot to post, you wrote the snow elves article.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2010 :  01:34:33  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quale

I can't contribute much, only done a few minor changes in the area. Dalor you mentioned Mars, so I guess we can post any crazy theory.

In my Realms during the ice age, Toril was a cold wasteland covered with ashes of dead gods. The frost fey were the first who re-settled the world, after the Frost Sprite King's rebellion against Auril. They built megalithic, crystal and glacial structures in the High Ice to restore the natural balance of the world. Ulutiu, who was a sort of proto-Tyr-like spirit of the Ice Hunters, summoned uldras of the frost fey to teach them the secrets of cryomancy, as a form of protection against the floods. There was a schism in the frost fey society over whether the megafauna released from the ice should be hunted down. Tarsellis Meunniduin allied with the ancestors of the Snow Cat tribe. Mythical snow elves were eventually extinct among the human population, leaving bloodline traces, like the neanderthals, among the Snow People of Thar. The madness of Auril followed the frost fey, who fought wars of ice and fire against the elder drow of Svartalfheim. The elder drow were ''burned out'' and retreated to the south.



Cool ideas...though I should mention that I DIDN'T say anything about Mars.

EDIT: well, I DID say SOMETHING about Mars...but I wasn't trying to be literal. LOL

AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 13 Oct 2010 01:35:26
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althen artren
Senior Scribe

USA
778 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2010 :  01:52:47  Show Profile Send althen artren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have Faeries from Bastion Press. I do use that for my land of Faerie
demiplane. Change things a bit, with all the fey gods being mortal? and
all. Excellent resource. Also they're Alchemist and Herbalist book is
excellent also. They have put out several high quality books.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2010 :  16:15:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I SO need to get that book.

I have another one, entitled The Fey which is pretty damn good - borrowed a lot from that.

Anyhow, what I had wasn't so much concerned with the Snow Elves, but rather the over-arching story of Toril and the Fey (Le'Shay), and I related it all to the War of Light & Darkness.

That was the epiphany I had while writing this new bit - I linked the Black Diamond affair to that conflict, and everything fit perfectly. It was really epic... too bad it got erased.

I remember most of it - the main ideas, anyway. It was the writing I hope I can duplicate - it read like a mythological piece found buried in the halls of CandleKeep.

Written by Marcosius the Mad, sage of Troos.

Edit: Glad you like the Snow Elves article, BTW. I'm pretty proud of that. It isn't easy writing that much about a subject without really saying anything at all - I felt like a politician.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Oct 2010 16:20:24
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  20:51:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
casts *** Raise Scroll ***

So in other scrolls I've been talking about Fey a LOT lately, but rather than clog them up any further, I'm going to bring this one back. Here is my current line of reasoning -

Gruumsh and Corellon are NOT 'Fey', but they were both Seldarine and thus part of a larger group that created all the different kinds of fey (as many different types as there are Seldarine, which further split into hundredss of other subtypes). Many Primal Aspects became part of the Seldarine (It was Corellon's 'private club' where he invited like-minded Elder Gods to join him on his endeavors, and it would have included arch-things, primal powers, at least one Obyrith {for a short time}, and even Primordials and Empyreals). In fact, Gruumsh may heave been been an Empyreal that got 'adopted'; Empyreal being the 'archfey' tier of the Jotuns (primal giants), so, 'Archgiants'.

Anyhow, I picture a group of more 'feral' (for lack of a better word) Fey-gods splitting off, and becoming the 'Yuir Totems'. Whereas the Seldarine were worshiped by the Eladrin, these gods preferred to keep things more 'primitive', and courted the elves, instead. Here is my current list...

Elikarashae - Tarsellis Meunniduin
Magnar the Bear - Malar
Relkath of the Infinite Branches - Rillifane Rallathil
Simbul - Araushnee (before she became Lolth)
Zandilar the Dancer - (aspect of Eilistraee, before dark elves became drow)
Kozah the Fury - Aspect of Gruumsh that later became Talos)
Umbelara the Coral princess - Umberlee, the Bitch Queen
Sylvanaas - Silvanus
Hanasūn - Hanali Celanil, in a more 'beauty of nature' aspect

That gives us nine, and there were ten, but I like to leave a spot open for 'DM development' . These would have all been VERY early aspects of those gods, before the whole thing blew up between Lolth and the Seldarine. In fact, that split caused the first 'parting of ways' within the Yuir Pantheon, which just fell apart over the years. Tarsellis Meunniduin was the first to drift away (he had feelings for Araushnee, which made him a bit of an outcast after everything went down, and thats still the case today - this PERFECTLY shoe-horns into his own canon lore).

I think Gruumsh had an aspect named Kozah, who's worshiped spread to the humans living in the Unapproachable East via the Yuir Elves. Migrating Gur picked this up, and he was later found in their pantheon when they settled in the Anauroch (Netherese) region. Kozah then absorbed a burgeoning power named Bhaelros and took his followers. At some point he absorbed yet another 'storm god' (My thoughts here lean toward a Jhaamdathan power of 'calmness & tranquility' - the opposition of storm - like 'Talmetheus'), and he slowly became Talos - an amalgam of the various personalities, and no longer truly Gruumsh. A true aspect of Gruumsh came over during the Orcgate wars, and after those were over, he noted Toril's aspect of Gruumsh had become corrupted, and that most orcs now worshiped other powers (including many archfiends). He then spent many centuries reestablishing his faith among the Orc tribes, and building his power, until he felt ready to battle and absorb the 'false Gruumsh' Talos. This he finally managed to do during the Time of Troubles, when he took Talos by surprised and killed him. He then began a pogrom of bring 'his' orcs under heal, by creating a Chosen named Obould to unite them. Rather than the stupidity of pure Chaos the Orcs had embraced over the thousands of years Talos ignored them, he chose Obould to steer the Orcs in a more disciplined, military fashion, so as to no longer be the butt of jokes among the fair races, and to rise to prominence over the other goblinoids (and their gods).

It wasn't until after the Spellplague struck that it became common knowledge that 'Gruumsh is Talos'. He was hoping to lure more humans away from their pantheons, because of all the gods that were no longer responding to their followers, but this did not work so well. He actually lost more followers than he gained, and the church of Talos collapsed practically overnight.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 21:03:02
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3594 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  21:23:08  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally prefer that Gruumsh and ol' pointy ears are brothers. However, that being said, it doesn't mean that they have to be identical...only brothers in the sense that they emerged from the same realm.

AD&D for me!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  01:58:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I personally prefer that Gruumsh and ol' pointy ears are brothers. However, that being said, it doesn't mean that they have to be identical...only brothers in the sense that they emerged from the same realm.
Well, the article (which I isnpired) was merely 'folklore', but like all folkoe, i think it contains some grains of truth.

I always spun them as half-brothers and twins (such a thing is possible in the RW - paternal twins born from two different fathers... momma was a 'party girl' LOL). In my original homebrew lore, Titania was there mother, but that isn't doable anymore - If Corellon created the Eladrin, and Eladrin ARE Fey, then Corellon came before Titania.

Plus I found a canon goddess that predates Titania and all the fey - Rhiannon - and also in 4e/5e Tiandra has replaced Titania (so it all got so much more convoluted).

So now my thoughts are that Titania was the 'daughter' of Corellon, possibly by Danu (a dead power... sort of... she became Faerie). But since Corellon is an Elder God and therefor 'sexless' (and he IS androgynmous in canon), 'father' can simply mean he created her (whole-cloth or out of something else).

My lore starts to really veer off the canon track here - I have it where Pale Night created the first dark Elves (who were archfey), possibly with Corellon. Pale Night was masquerading as a primal Power or some-such, and since the Estelar had no clue about the other universe of the Obyriths, they didn't know any better. this means she may have been accepted as a 'Seldarine' (which isn't a racial thing so much as it was Corellon's private club). Gruumsh creates the Goblyns, which become Unseelie fey, etc. Different Seldarine created different things, and 'Seldarine' didn't mean back then what it means now. Whether they were brothers or not, the 4e canon lore has them as contemporaries in the Before time. That means they pre-existed mortal races. This is why I had to re-write so much of my personal (homebrew) lore.

So 'brothers', in that they were two of the very first Gods, and as far as we know, no-one created them (although something must have, but that goes beyond the canon lore). So one could look at it like this - ALL the Estelar were 'family' - brothers and sisters. The primordials were their redneck cousins.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 01:59:17
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sleyvas
Great Reader

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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  05:07:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

casts *** Raise Scroll ***

So in other scrolls I've been talking about Fey a LOT lately, but rather than clog them up any further, I'm going to bring this one back. Here is my current line of reasoning -

Gruumsh and Corellon are NOT 'Fey', but they were both Seldarine and thus part of a larger group that created all the different kinds of fey (as many different types as there are Seldarine, which further split into hundredss of other subtypes). Many Primal Aspects became part of the Seldarine (It was Corellon's 'private club' where he invited like-minded Elder Gods to join him on his endeavors, and it would have included arch-things, primal powers, at least one Obyrith {for a short time}, and even Primordials and Empyreals). In fact, Gruumsh may heave been been an Empyreal that got 'adopted'; Empyreal being the 'archfey' tier of the Jotuns (primal giants), so, 'Archgiants'.

Anyhow, I picture a group of more 'feral' (for lack of a better word) Fey-gods splitting off, and becoming the 'Yuir Totems'. Whereas the Seldarine were worshiped by the Eladrin, these gods preferred to keep things more 'primitive', and courted the elves, instead. Here is my current list...

Elikarashae - Tarsellis Meunniduin
Magnar the Bear - Malar
Relkath of the Infinite Branches - Rillifane Rallathil
Simbul - Araushnee (before she became Lolth)
Zandilar the Dancer - (aspect of Eilistraee, before dark elves became drow)
Kozah the Fury - Aspect of Gruumsh that later became Talos)
Umbelara the Coral princess - Umberlee, the Bitch Queen
Sylvanaas - Silvanus
Hanasūn - Hanali Celanil, in a more 'beauty of nature' aspect

That gives us nine, and there were ten, but I like to leave a spot open for 'DM development' . These would have all been VERY early aspects of those gods, before the whole thing blew up between Lolth and the Seldarine. In fact, that split caused the first 'parting of ways' within the Yuir Pantheon, which just fell apart over the years. Tarsellis Meunniduin was the first to drift away (he had feelings for Araushnee, which made him a bit of an outcast after everything went down, and thats still the case today - this PERFECTLY shoe-horns into his own canon lore).

I think Gruumsh had an aspect named Kozah, who's worshiped spread to the humans living in the Unapproachable East via the Yuir Elves. Migrating Gur picked this up, and he was later found in their pantheon when they settled in the Anauroch (Netherese) region. Kozah then absorbed a burgeoning power named Bhaelros and took his followers. At some point he absorbed yet another 'storm god' (My thoughts here lean toward a Jhaamdathan power of 'calmness & tranquility' - the opposition of storm - like 'Talmetheus'), and he slowly became Talos - an amalgam of the various personalities, and no longer truly Gruumsh. A true aspect of Gruumsh came over during the Orcgate wars, and after those were over, he noted Toril's aspect of Gruumsh had become corrupted, and that most orcs now worshiped other powers (including many archfiends). He then spent many centuries reestablishing his faith among the Orc tribes, and building his power, until he felt ready to battle and absorb the 'false Gruumsh' Talos. This he finally managed to do during the Time of Troubles, when he took Talos by surprised and killed him. He then began a pogrom of bring 'his' orcs under heal, by creating a Chosen named Obould to unite them. Rather than the stupidity of pure Chaos the Orcs had embraced over the thousands of years Talos ignored them, he chose Obould to steer the Orcs in a more disciplined, military fashion, so as to no longer be the butt of jokes among the fair races, and to rise to prominence over the other goblinoids (and their gods).

It wasn't until after the Spellplague struck that it became common knowledge that 'Gruumsh is Talos'. He was hoping to lure more humans away from their pantheons, because of all the gods that were no longer responding to their followers, but this did not work so well. He actually lost more followers than he gained, and the church of Talos collapsed practically overnight.




YECH on the Gruumsh is Talos. Oh, and Kozah and Gruumsh look nothing alike.

On the Magnar as Malar too, I'd not recommend it.

Tarsellis Meunniduin pretty much equals Fenmarel Mestarine if you read them both

From Demihuman Deities
"Fenmarel was once Lolth's lover, one of the first to be seduced
by her power and promises, but he turned away from her
before completely slipping over to the dark side, for which she
has never forgiven him. Neither has Fenmarel forgiven Lolth for
her breach of faith with the elven race, and thus he hates drow."


So, both were turned by Lolth. Both lead outcast races of elves. Both are outcast from the Seldarine. The only difference is that Tarsellis is specifically mentioned to snow elves, but that may be just the name he's known as for them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  06:37:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, I got the Kozah thing straight from the FRwiki. Before I wrote that I did not even know Talos was Kozah. I was just looking for the stuff about Gruumsh being Talos (which was canon in 4e - I was actuallY trying to do something abit less abrasive then 4e's "this is just the way it is and too bad" methodology of altering past canon). Thus, if Talos was relaly gruumsh all along, and Talos use to be Kozah, then Kozah had to have been an aspect of Gruumsh. I surmise at least one god he may have absorbed, and my thoughts here was that he had subsumed many 'small gods', thus changing him from his Gruumsh-looking aspect to Talos, over thousands of years.

Putting him with the Furies - when we KNOW Auril is a fey (and I've always suspected Umberlee was another, and both were former Yuir Totems) just hooks it all together. Malar already had pre-Torillian history with the dark-Seldarine.

I think the thing that will bother people the most about this theory is that the elves of Faerūn would have been worshiping the dark Seldarine before the Eladrin arrived. The trouble is, it was kinds hinted at in Elaine's novel that the elves WEREN'T worshiping the Seldarine, and the GhotR confirms it. There was a bunch of 'dark powers' the elves were drawn to (like moths to a flame). Also, I guess everyone always felt the Yuir Totems were these cheery, fey-types, when really they were a somber, angry bunch (in my homebrew theory - we have no clue what they were like, actually). All we know is the nicest-seeming one of the bunch was Zandilar - who CANONICALLY had a relationship with Vhaeraun - and then she gets absorbed by Baast and Baast turns into this 'kitty in Heat' Sharess, queen of debauchery. Seems to me Baast got a whole lot 'darker' when she absorbed zandilar.

Thus, whatever you want to do with Gruumsh*, the rest is actually a good fit. Tarsellis can't be Fenmarel because the Dragon magazine (#236) article on the expanded Seldarine specifically talks about their relationship, how they had a falling out (and Lolth is mentioned as the likely cause), and how Tarsellis 'drifted away' from the other elven gods after that. I got all of that straight out of the article. Believe you me, i am the LAST person on these boards to not want to merge two extremely similar gods together (LOL), but I have to stick to what the canon says. So unless one of them killed the other and took his stuff, they have to both exist.

As for Gruumsh - we really don't know what Gruumsh is supposed to look like. He has two very different appearances in canon, and thats how he looks to orcs, but if he is worshiped by others (and since he is NOT 'an orc' - he is Corellon's brother - there no reason he shouldn't be), then he would have aspects that do NOT 'look like an orc'. As Corellon's brother (if that isn't just hyperboole), he should be beutiful... in a rugged sort of way (maybe he look like a young Chuck Norris).

If Gruumsh was an early drop-out of the seldarine (even if he was only 'adopted in'), then he should have more fey-seeming aspects. One he is probably loaths to use now. I picture the proto-orcs (my Goblyns, that became the Hobgoblins and the goblins, and then devolved into all the other goblinoids, including orcs), looking something like This Female. Bestial, but still very much 'fey' (I found that by typing 'feral elf', not orc or hobgoblin, which is the way I am picturing them). Here is a good picture of a male. Over time, they would have become more savage-appearing, which befits their nature, and the nature of Gruumsh and the other Orc/Goblin deities desiring to put greater distance between them and Seldarine. Another good pic of an early dark Elf/Goblyn Savage. And elves should look different on every world. I theorize that when the left the feywild (driven from it, was more like it), their gods wanted them to become more fecund, so they 'fix' them to be able to breed with anything, and made it so they always wanted to rut. On Oerth, this made them breed with and completely absorb a group of primitive boar-men, hence the 'piggy faces' there. On other worlds, they still may yet retain some of their 'classic elven beauty' (in a feral kind of way).

What did Koazah look like? All I see is that mention in the Wiki - he doesn't even warrant his own page? Could he have just bee one of these proto-orcs I am talking about here? I found a good pic I'd love to use for my 'Primal Gru-Maas' figure.

Another good female - more like feral looking elves with green, brown, or gray skin). Actually, the brown ones would have been the ones that became drow. Skyrim Orc are really close to what I want -the females look fine, but the males need a little less 'tusk'. WoW orcs are generic fantasy orcs, and thats okay - there are kinds in the multiverse. it all depends on what they ran into on those worlds, on a cold dark lonely night. Wait a sec... Orctaurs? GREAT idea for a Katashaka creature! Orc-taur.

I still think Drow = Dark Eladrin, and Goblyns = Dark Elves works out nicely. That makes Drow and Orcs from the same family tree (which they should be - they're both Dokalfar).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 06:54:08
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