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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 08 Aug 2010 :  04:01:43  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was considering...in my thoughts on building my own 1st Edition Forgotten Realms...if I wanted to add the city of Lankhmar to the Forgotten Realms, where could I put it?

My first inclination would be to replace Westgate with it...but then I thought that it would be very close to Sembia and Cormyr.

What do you guys think?

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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1755 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2010 :  07:19:34  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the Utter East would be a good place, already there are people called ''the Mar'', the Pit of Ghuls in Zakhara is nearby, and you could link the simorgyans to the underwater batrachi civilization that MT mentioned.
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 08 Aug 2010 :  07:27:05  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And Thay wouldn't be TOO far away to replace a certain group of wizards either...

I like that idea...need to think on it some more.

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Thauramarth
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 08 Aug 2010 :  09:09:37  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In a campaign of mine (1E/2E lore alone), I used Lankhmar to represent Telflamm (which, I understand, was developed further in 3E and 3.5E). I only wanted to use the city, and eliminated references to bits that did not fit in with the Realms.

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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  22:34:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would also make a VERY good Sultim.

Out of the way from the main heartlands, yet close enough to interact with it, and also canonicly semi-independent of any nation (IIRC, they pay tribute to Thay or Mulhorand, I forget which).

Its eastern location gives it a bit of the exotic (which Lankhmar has in abundance), and is kinda centralized if you wanted to interact with both Faerun and the eastern realms (The Hordlands and Kara-Tur).

I also feel the flavor is appropriate, and it wouldn't be violating much canon at all, if any, to change it thusly, because there is very little canon about that city.

Bear in mind the Rauthenflow now has a direct route to Brightstar Lake (Mulhorand made a major effort to clear the rapids and make it navigable, as per the Hordelands booklet, IIRC), which makes Sultim ideally located for trade along that route.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2010 22:34:54
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  23:10:40  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sultim eh?

That is a good spot...but I was worried somewhat about the Red Wizards being so close.

In my thoughts on Lankhmar in the FR, it would have to be a city west of Thay...I had planned on using the Red Wizards as the Fire Sorcerers of the East.

Even thought I like Telflamm, I have considered putting it there. Making Fafrd from Rashemen maybe...plus the "Cold Witches" would of course be a given nearby...

What do you think?

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  00:05:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why replace an existing city?

You could put it in the lore-desert Altumbel - nothing to really conflict there. Another place would be along the Wizard's Reach - those cities have had plenty of problems with Thay, and some have remained independent.

If you prefer a little less Aglarond-intrusive location, how about on Cape Dragonfang, or even at the very southern-most part of the Easting Reach?

Something like this.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2010 00:12:49
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Jorkens
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Norway
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Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  09:42:26  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although I tried once years ago to include the whole city, it usually has been more a case of stealing ideas. Most of these have gone into various Dragon Coast city's in addition to Waterdeep. I have also found Chaosiums old Thieves World box useful for ideas.
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  17:53:09  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Why replace an existing city?

You could put it in the lore-desert Altumbel - nothing to really conflict there. Another place would be along the Wizard's Reach - those cities have had plenty of problems with Thay, and some have remained independent.

If you prefer a little less Aglarond-intrusive location, how about on Cape Dragonfang, or even at the very southern-most part of the Easting Reach?

Something like this.




I was just looking through my Deities and Demigods and thought about this again.

I like this placement for it MT, but where do I put the Newhon Ghoul lands?

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:24:11  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I was considering...in my thoughts on building my own 1st Edition Forgotten Realms...if I wanted to add the city of Lankhmar to the Forgotten Realms, where could I put it?

On Nehwon.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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30814 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  21:39:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I was considering...in my thoughts on building my own 1st Edition Forgotten Realms...if I wanted to add the city of Lankhmar to the Forgotten Realms, where could I put it?

On Nehwon.



I'm not a fan of Nehwon ghouls, myself. Midgard's darakhul, though -- now those are interesting.

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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Feb 2018 :  22:36:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was so young and naive back then...

For shear usefulness without destroying canon, that was a pretty good spot. These days I'd probably just swap it for Telpir (right above Turmish), or even put it on Prespur (ignoring other lore for the island in the process). Given its age and level of decadence, it would make a great swap for Sultim, between Thay and Mulhorand, or somewhere down in Calimshan, on the Lake of steam, or as one of the citystates on the Chultan arm ('Cities of the Seabreeze'). Of course, if you are running a 'Heartlands' campaign, those spot may be a bit too far afield.

But if you kept THAT spot, than ideally, the ghouls should be over in the Taan. if you have the Fonstad maps, there is a place called 'The Many Windowed Tower' on the Great Ice Sea (Yal Tengri), and its on a peninsula. See that other, larger peninsula below it? On the end of that. That's where you place the 'City of Ghouls' - and its about the same distance (and directional orientation) the two cities are from each other on Newhon.

You just gave me an idea for something...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 01:19:53
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:08:26  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm looking for a place to put more than just the city now. I'm seriously considering swapping out Chessenta...

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  00:15:11  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With Ao being "out" of my Forgotten Realms completely...as in he doesn't and never has existed...it will be much easier now.

I really like several of the Gods of Newhon; so I'll see how I can write the place in now.

The main God I'm wanting to write in is Kos, the God of Dooms.

Although, Death is (for me) a much better God of Death than any in the Forgotten Realms currently.

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Markustay
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  01:22:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've used the Newhon gods - I don't see a reason to change anything. I just ignore Ao and his silly rules.

Right now I am considering making Tyaa/Fileet (basically same goddess - the other is from the Melnibonean mythos) Aerdrie Faenya - no-one ever said the elven goddess wasn't a bitch.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2018 01:23:26
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sleyvas
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  13:22:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've barely ever read any Fritz Leiber, but weren't the "gods of Lankhmar" living entities (well, mummies)? Was Lankhmar definitely a port city (guessing probably)? I'd be inclined to say down in Zakhara. Maybe near the "Ruined Kingdoms" area. Maybe even give them ties to the Necromancer Kings of old.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  15:37:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I've barely ever read any Fritz Leiber, but weren't the "gods of Lankhmar" living entities (well, mummies)?



There were the gods OF Lankhmar, and the gods IN Lankhmar... I don't remember which was which. One was the group of undead baddies that would trash anyone causing problems, and the other was your standard fantasy pantheon.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 09 Feb 2018 :  17:24:25  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I've barely ever read any Fritz Leiber, but weren't the "gods of Lankhmar" living entities (well, mummies)?



There were the gods OF Lankhmar, and the gods IN Lankhmar... I don't remember which was which. One was the group of undead baddies that would trash anyone causing problems, and the other was your standard fantasy pantheon.



The Gods OF Lankhmar are 13 Demi-Gods who are essentially Liches with lots of power.

The Gods IN Lankhmar are other Gods who have temples also in the city; but are not the actual gods of Lankhmar...but of Newhon as a whole.

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Scots Dragon
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  16:19:58  Show Profile Send Scots Dragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I've used the Newhon gods - I don't see a reason to change anything. I just ignore Ao and his silly rules.


Azuth is explicitly based off of Aarth, and Ilmater is explicitly based off of Issek of the Jug, so simply reinterpreting the other major deities of Lankhmar with Forgotten Realms gods in their place wouldn't be much of a stretch.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  22:52:37  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I've used the Newhon gods - I don't see a reason to change anything. I just ignore Ao and his silly rules.


Azuth is explicitly based off of Aarth, and Ilmater is explicitly based off of Issek of the Jug, so simply reinterpreting the other major deities of Lankhmar with Forgotten Realms gods in their place wouldn't be much of a stretch.





Yes. Azuth/Aarth and Issek/Ilmater are so similar that it is obvious.

I'm trying to pick a good placement for Kos; but I'm somewhat torn on which god I want it to be.

I'm thinking Kossuth is a good fit for the Red God.

So for the Gods:

Aarth = Azuth

Death = Kelemvor (currently) Even Death in Newhon expects to be replaced some day.

Gods OF Lankmar = themselves. They are 13 Demi-Gods who only care about the city itself.

Gods of Trouble (Lesser Gods) = Not sure what this could be. There are three of them and it seems perhaps it would be best to describe them as aspects of Beshaba instead of different gods.

Hate = Instead of making this a "god" I think it will be a summoned manifestation of Bane. Not sure though.

Issek = Ilmater

Kos the "Lord of Dooms" (Greater God) = He is a Greater God. I can't simply demote this really powerful being. So he may be full blown simply left the same.

Earth God = I may have to make this guy a being from the quasi-elemental plane of Magma. Essentially like one of the Elemental Princes.

Rat God = Malar is the closest fit I can get here.

Red God = Kossuth. Both are neutral, and "The Church's aims tend to revolve around the acquisition of land, power and wealth." for Kossuth.

Spider God = Lolth easily.

Tyaa = Not sure here.

Votishal = because he is a Demi-God; I think he could remain just as he is by simply adding him to the Faerunian Pantheon as a local Demi-god.


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Markustay
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  23:12:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure what list you are working off of - I like the Planescape one.

Tyaa I was thinking about making Aerdrie Faenya, but aside from the 'bird' thing, they are very different. An evil aspect of The Raven Queen 'might' make a better fit, because Ravens are mentioned in Tyaa's description.

Spider god is male, and looks like a drider - it should be Selvetarm, not Lolth.

Just leave Kos as is, but in my stuff I'd make him an aspect of Annam (who is also called 'The All father'... and Odin WAS a giant, BTW ).

I'd just leave the Rat God as is - just a primal power ('Beast Lord'). They answer to Malar, but aren't really Malar. Since THAT setting also has 'beast lords', I don't know why the separate him out like that.

Hate should stay as-is. Its just a 'monster', really. The Gods of trouble just sound like pure chaos - something that 'dripped' out of the Far Realms, me thinks (so just another powerful group of monsters/aberrations).

Newhone Earth God = Ubtao. Its the best fit, IMO.

Shark God is obviously Iakhovas. Although in a broader, D&D perspective, Sekolah would probably be better.

Glaggerk could be Rellavar Danuvien, "The Frost Sprite King". He's been grouchy since the Seldarine started giving him the cold shoulder.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 23:18:12
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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  23:26:06  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mog is the man-headed spider.

Spider God is not the same...they are different gods.

I'm pulling my list directly from my Deities and Demi-Gods 1980.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  23:38:47  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does Annam have worshipers in Faerun?

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 10 Feb 2018 :  23:39:42  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ubtao doesn't want to destroy the world...Earth God wants to melt everything.

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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  00:02:34  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So looking at major geographical features:

The Great Forest could be Cormanthor or those forests around the Great Dale I guess. Adventures that happened in the Great Forest could have happened in these places with small twists.

The Forest of Sibilan could be the Yuirwood?

The Forest of Klesh could be the Chondalwood?

The Sinking Land could be The Wizard's Reach?

The Eastern Lands could be Thay/Mulhorand?

The Sea of the East is the Alamber Sea?

Lankhmar is best placed in Altumbel like MT suggested before I think.

I can get rid of Altumbel all together, and replace Spandeliyon with Lankhmar.

A few small tweaks and it works out well I think.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 11 Feb 2018 :  04:09:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Too much work for me. I only read one of those books, and it wasn't really my cup of tea.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Ubtao doesn't want to destroy the world...Earth God wants to melt everything.
Ubtao was initially a primordial... then he switched sides. There are aspects of the Earth God who sounds like Ao, and for awhile now I have been thinking Ubtao is a more primal aspect of Ao (so would that make 'the Shadow' Ubt?)
Anyhow, if the original Ubtao was more 'neutral', and then he split in two (seems like a running theme, but this time I have canon to back it up - just like with Selūne and Shar, suddenly this dude's shadow comes to life and is his equal), then the Ubtao we 'know' might be the 'good half', and the part that got 'trapped within the world' is The Shadow (which fits all of Ubtao's canon... and maybe even Shar's, if some of my other theories are correct).

Holy crap... I think I finally figure out the exact piece of lore I would need to answer all my questions...

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Does Annam have worshipers in Faerun?
Active ones? No, I don't think so. All giants consider him their creator, but they worship his 'children' more directly. He's bit too far removed from them at this point for them to pay much attention to him. Some in Hartsvale might.

In my homebrew, I consider him the same being as the dwarven High God, so he created both pantheons (although Ptah is primarily responsible for the dwarves), and although I did play with the idea he was also Odin for a time, I've since decided Odin was just another (giantish) son of his - an Empyreal, by 4e/5e terminology (so yeah, Annam is really a primordial, not an Estelar... but still 'a God'). All of Annam's children were gifted with Rune-Magic.

Thus, I have some ideas about placing him with the Northmen, that I've never really done anything with. So, in Norse, Annam would be Borr (and still mostly ignored LOL).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2018 04:18:43
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