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 Elminster Must Die -- Prologue & Chapters 1 - 5
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  05:29:05  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Well met

This is a Book Club thread for Elminster Must Die (part of "The Sage of Shadowdale" saga), by Ed Greenwood. Please discuss the Prologue and chapters 1 - 5 herein.

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 03 Aug 2010 16:24:12

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  15:47:16  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi, Sage. I'm not sure if Wizards is still regarding ELMINSTER MUST DIE! as Book 1 of "The Sage of Shadowdale" trilogy.
In the published tome, the entire saga of Elminster now seems to be headed "The Sage of Shadowdale" and all "Book 1" mentions have been expunged.
Ed has a 6-book contract, so I'm not sure it's a trilogy.
Ed, of course, can't say - - not just legally; I don't think he KNOWS.
love,
THO
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  15:54:43  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice little nod to our own Garen Thal. I noticed a number of other little in-jokes and Easter Eggs that Ed gave us, throughout the book: "Jharakphred," for one. However, Ed has the knack of not making them stick out of the narrative and annoy the reader who either gets jolted out of the story because they know what the inference is, or are irked by knowing there's some sort of secondary meaning that they're missing...
Great read.
BB
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  16:03:28  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi, Sage. I'm not sure if Wizards is still regarding ELMINSTER MUST DIE! as Book 1 of "The Sage of Shadowdale" trilogy.
In the published tome, the entire saga of Elminster now seems to be headed "The Sage of Shadowdale" and all "Book 1" mentions have been expunged.
Ed has a 6-book contract, so I'm not sure it's a trilogy.
Ed, of course, can't say - - not just legally; I don't think he KNOWS.
love,
THO

Ah.

I appreciate the clarification, milady. I was working from old data on the Wizards Novel Page. I'll make the necessary adjustments.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  16:07:20  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Hi, Sage. I'm not sure if Wizards is still regarding ELMINSTER MUST DIE! as Book 1 of "The Sage of Shadowdale" trilogy.
In the published tome, the entire saga of Elminster now seems to be headed "The Sage of Shadowdale" and all "Book 1" mentions have been expunged.
Ed has a 6-book contract, so I'm not sure it's a trilogy.
Ed, of course, can't say - - not just legally; I don't think he KNOWS.
love,
THO
Indeed, it looks as though Sage of Shadowdale may be a blanket title for the entire tale of Elminster, all the way back to the beginning. Elminster Ascending bears the title as well, indicating that Sage of Shadowdale may [finally] be giving old El an umbrella grouping the way that The Legend of Drizzt indicates tales about the drow ranger and his comrades.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  16:22:36  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

Nice little nod to our own Garen Thal.
I haven't gotten the book yet, but from where I'm sitting, there's nothing 'little' about it. Knowing what Ed means by it (both because he forewarned me it would be in the book, and because he's told me more directly), it's a compliment of the highest order, and well-appreciated.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2907 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2010 :  19:51:56  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Starting chapter 5. The bombshell that is the last sentance on pg 43 blew me away. Wooly will like it. Time to read some more
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2010 :  23:06:18  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

Nice little nod to our own Garen Thal. I noticed a number of other little in-jokes and Easter Eggs that Ed gave us, throughout the book: "Jharakphred," for one. However, Ed has the knack of not making them stick out of the narrative and annoy the reader who either gets jolted out of the story because they know what the inference is, or are irked by knowing there's some sort of secondary meaning that they're missing...
Great read.
BB



Sage, Maybe we need a scroll just for all the easter eggs that our fellow scribes can spot!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2010 :  01:18:57  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade

Nice little nod to our own Garen Thal. I noticed a number of other little in-jokes and Easter Eggs that Ed gave us, throughout the book: "Jharakphred," for one. However, Ed has the knack of not making them stick out of the narrative and annoy the reader who either gets jolted out of the story because they know what the inference is, or are irked by knowing there's some sort of secondary meaning that they're missing...
Great read.
BB



Sage, Maybe we need a scroll just for all the easter eggs that our fellow scribes can spot!


I'll decide on that once I finally receive my copy.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2010 :  15:12:53  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, where do we start.

El.
The Simbul.
Storm.
The Steel Regent. And with a snarky, disrespectful utterance of Vangey's name to boot.

And Manshoon?


What more could a Greenwood fan mask for?

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Aug 2010 16:24:37
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  10:55:34  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I haven't read this book yet, (still waiting for the shipment) but one quick question: (Ed's novels usually involve the cockroach Manshoon and far too many Zhents, whom I really tried to like or at least spare a mote of liking but always failed to.) Does this book feature them again ? Or are there other equally strong or greater power groups that desire and scheme for the ultimate demise of our beloved El?


Every beginning has an end.
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Bakra
Senior Scribe

618 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  14:06:25  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis


I haven't read this book yet, (still waiting for the shipment) but one quick question: (Ed's novels usually involve the cockroach Manshoon and far too many Zhents, whom I really tried to like or at least spare a mote of liking but always failed to.) Does this book feature them again ? Or are there other equally strong or greater power groups that desire and scheme for the ultimate demise of our beloved El?





The novel features an old foe, High Knights galore, an arrogant War Wizards.

All who wish to kill El.

I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  14:35:14  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis


I haven't read this book yet, (still waiting for the shipment) but one quick question: (Ed's novels usually involve the cockroach Manshoon and far too many Zhents, whom I really tried to like or at least spare a mote of liking but always failed to.) Does this book feature them again ? Or are there other equally strong or greater power groups that desire and scheme for the ultimate demise of our beloved El?





I could be wrong, but it seems Manshoon has been in less than half of Ed's Novels. I understand you do not like him....so why do we need to see some variant of "that cockroach Manshoon", which your posts usually feature?

And without spoiling later parts of the novel...this is not the same "manshoon" ,in the same ways Ed has been asked to write about in the past(bumbling, inept almost comical and not near evil enough). He is much more like what Ed's original charcter is.

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963

Edited by - The Red Walker on 11 Aug 2010 14:37:39
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  17:08:04  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
dennis,
remember this, always, when regarding Ed's or anyone else's Realms novels: they are all "work for hire." Authors (yes, including Ed and Bob Salvatore) write about characters they are told to write about, not "whoever they may feel like" writing about.
As for your query: if there are any Zs included, that's not confirmed to the reader. Yes, "M" appears. One of the themes of the book is the manias/toll of surviving for centuries and using/abusing/overusing/becoming ravaged by magic. El and the other Chosen aren't the ONLY characters affected by this, that Ed is comparing and contrasting in the book.
Nor is this the only game Ed is playing, in EL M D!
Heh. Wait'll you see BURY ELMINSTER DEEP . . .
love,
THO
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3532 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  18:34:04  Show Profile  Send The Red Walker a Yahoo! Message Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

dennis,
remember this, always, when regarding Ed's or anyone else's Realms novels: they are all "work for hire." Authors (yes, including Ed and Bob Salvatore) write about characters they are told to write about, not "whoever they may feel like" writing about.As for your query: if there are any Zs included, that's not confirmed to the reader. Yes, "M" appears. One of the themes of the book is the manias/toll of surviving for centuries and using/abusing/overusing/becoming ravaged by magic. El and the other Chosen aren't the ONLY characters affected by this, that Ed is comparing and contrasting in the book.
Nor is this the only game Ed is playing, in EL M D!
Heh. Wait'll you see BURY ELMINSTER DEEP . . .
love,
THO


Emphasis mine..that's what I was clumsily trying to convey!

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  19:48:09  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker

quote:
Originally posted by dennis


I haven't read this book yet, (still waiting for the shipment) but one quick question: (Ed's novels usually involve the cockroach Manshoon and far too many Zhents, whom I really tried to like or at least spare a mote of liking but always failed to.) Does this book feature them again ? Or are there other equally strong or greater power groups that desire and scheme for the ultimate demise of our beloved El?





I could be wrong, but it seems Manshoon has been in less than half of Ed's Novels. I understand you do not like him....so why do we need to see some variant of "that cockroach Manshoon", which your posts usually feature?




The fact that this book is "about" El is more than enough reason for me to read it. It's just that I hate annoying surprises...I'd undoubtedly be annoyed if I suddenly read the name of the cockroach in this novel without knowing before hand. At least by knowing what to expect, I'd be ready with my insect repellent spray!

Every beginning has an end.
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2010 :  19:56:10  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

dennis,
remember this, always, when regarding Ed's or anyone else's Realms novels: they are all "work for hire." Authors (yes, including Ed and Bob Salvatore) write about characters they are told to write about, not "whoever they may feel like" writing about.




That I know. You mentioned that in one of your replies to my query in Qs for Ed. The purpose of my question is only to know what to expect, because I don't like annoying surprises, and the cockroach's sudden presence in any book is nothing but. Besides, my insect repellent spray is not unlimited; I'd have to order more from Japan.

Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 11 Aug 2010 20:36:28
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Longtime Lurker
Seeker

51 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  03:41:31  Show Profile  Visit Longtime Lurker's Homepage Send Longtime Lurker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
dennis, there's nary a Zhent in sight, except Manshoon. Unless some of the nobles or other attendees at the feast or on the Palace staff are secretly Zhent agents, of course (and if they are, it's not even hinted at). Some characters are Manshoon's agents/pawns/mind-controlled dupes, but that's a different thing.
And from the tone of Ed's writing, I'd say he's hinting that at least one of those agents is going to break free/get out of hand, in a later book.
Ah, this book is FUN. It's got me excited about the Realms again, and I didn't think that was possible . . .
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  04:11:56  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Longtime Lurker

dennis, there's nary a Zhent in sight, except Manshoon.



My worry, exactly. As I love him so much!...Fortunately for me, no cockroach (yet) is strong enough to thwart me from reading this book.


Every beginning has an end.

Edited by - Dennis on 12 Aug 2010 04:13:20
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Josh82
Acolyte

10 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  10:04:36  Show Profile  Visit Josh82's Homepage Send Josh82 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of the worst written books that I've ever had the misfortune of reading. What pisses me off more is that I actually had to drive to the book store and buy it since it isn't available in Kindle format! Such an utter waste of time/money.

Why use 50 sentences when 1 would have done? Now everything needs 50,000 moronically written descriptions. My eyes were bleeding after reading the same old stupid quotes like "For the good of the realm" or "I am an agent of the crown, you will obey me"...then 2 seconds later the person dying. The book really made no sense at all. This book is literary vomit.

....No offense but this really is the worst FR's book in history.
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2907 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  11:41:16  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for sharing.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  11:45:03  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, now I am actually looking forward to reading the book, that review made it seem like a book I would like. The longer sentences and longer descriptions the better.
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe

242 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  19:40:33  Show Profile  Visit Malcolm's Homepage Send Malcolm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great book thus far, great beginning.
Though I suspect, having read previous Ed books, the fighting will slacken for a bit as we get more conversation and coloring in the characters.
"literary vomit"?
Well, one reader's diamonds are another reader's dog dirt, I suppose, but to call this the worst book in FR history makes me think the poster hasn't read all that many FR books. (I mean, there IS stiff competition for THAT crown.)
I'm delighted with my purchase, and will be reading right along to the end, expecting more superb entertainment. And I DO expect it to make sense. It being Ed, there will be subtleties and hints, not everything stated baldly...but then, that's what I'm expecting and hoping for.
I'll check in again when I get to the end.
Tonight, perhaps...
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Sage of Stars
Seeker

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  21:46:55  Show Profile  Visit Sage of Stars's Homepage Send Sage of Stars a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another enjoyable read from Ed's pen. These opening chapters are the most "gamer-ish" (I suppose another possible term would be "Salvatore-like") in that they feature more "don't make me fight you"/sneer/WHAM big fight" scenes than the rest of the narrative.
Looking across the current living and actively-writing SFWA membership, I count Ed in the top handful of a group of writers that wins few awards and writes few "ground-breaking" or seminal works, but instead tells good yarns that invite re-reading. Of the dead writers in this group, I can readily name Randall Garrett, E.E. "Doc" Smith, James H. Schmitz, and H. Beam Piper . . . but the living writers in this group are headed by Joe Lansdale, Christopher Moore, and Ed.
For Realms fans, this book is more than a solidly enjoyable re-read. It "gives back" a living, interesting, colorful Cormyr to the fans, introduces some great new characters whom I hope we'll be seeing a lot more of, and showcases some old favorites in ways that make it clear to everyone that they're still "in play," very much on the table.
Ed delivers. Well worth the money, and one more step of improvement in his Realms books. Since he started the Knights trilogy, each successive book has been better written. This one is rushed at the end (not that such pacing doesn't fit the tale well, mind you); I look forward eagerly to the sequel, and (despite having turned out more than a dozen sf and fantasy novels of my own, over two decades) energetically envy anyone who can write this well. His dialogue is deft when it doesn't sparkle.
So, I'll dine on this particular literary vomit, with sauce.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2010 :  23:24:25  Show Profile  Visit Blueblade's Homepage Send Blueblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(Wince) Now THERE'S a visual.
BB
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Dennis
Great Reader

9933 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2010 :  11:24:20  Show Profile Send Dennis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm


"literary vomit"?
Well, one reader's diamonds are another reader's dog dirt, I suppose, but to call this the worst book in FR history makes me think the poster hasn't read all that many FR books. (I mean, there IS stiff competition for THAT crown.)



Agreed. The worst FR books for me are a tie between Phil's Watercourse Trilogy and Ward's Pools of Darkness. So far, there are no books that Ed wrote (and I read) that I would consider poorly written---well, in FR at least, because the Falconfar saga is another story (Sorry, but book one of that series really bored me to near-death...)

Every beginning has an end.
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