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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jul 2010 : 19:40:46
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This is probably violating some unwritten rule, but I think I'll copy what I said there to here (excuse me for mostly using Dragonlance examples):
I think the truth, as always, lies somewhere in between. The main problem is that you are all limiting yourselves. You're saying that either novels are canon and should be strictly adhered to, or they shouldn't be canon, and you should be able to do what you want.
But that's ridiculous. You can't expect novels not to be canon, or at least to effect the game. Let's try an example: Chronicles and Legends aren't canon. You're playing a game in Palanthas. The players (who read novels) want to go see Raistlin. But he doesn't exist. So instead, your player decides to take over the Tower. And then progresses to do what Raistlin would have done.
We know from physics that simply seeing something changes it. The same is true for games. You can't expect players who read the novels not to build expectations based upon them. Raistlin is a wickedly cool character. What player who read the novels wouldn't want to meet him?
Novels define the setting. They are needed - they set a general framework for what is going on. Not everybody (even DM's) have the imagination to create their world - so they play in one that's been built. Not everyone can even imagine their own campaigns - so they go with one that already exists. There's nothing wrong with having your group take the path of the Heroes of the Lance. At the same time, you don't have to. So there's a war going on, and the NPC's are fighting the main fight, against Ariakas and Kitiara and the Red and Blue Dragonarmy? Have your players go fight Salah-Khan and the Black Dragonarmy in Khur. So you don't want Raistlin to die? Change it into Age of the White Hourglass(http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/14990.aspx), and keep going! Why be limited? Pick what parts of Canon you want, and dump the rest. Edit the story, change it a bit!
At the same time, small things can make a difference. Ed Greenwood has been answering questions for over 6 years here on Candlekeep regarding every aspect of the Realms, from 'What Would [insert name here] Do?' to explaining terminology and plants. It makes the game more real, when you call someone mad a 'lackwits' and a healing potion 'painquench'. It turns the game more exciting when you know what Azoun would do or that Elminster has a certain tiny village under his protection. Heck, I built an entire character and campaign based on Azoun's habits with women, Cormyr policies on higly succesful people and based on Four From Cormyr! (The PC's wife died in childbirth with the kid, confessing that Azoun slept with her and that the kid may be his. The PC did the Four From Cormyr in order to get close access to Azoun and Filfaeril, and at a certain ball, tried to stab Filfaeril in revenge for his wife. Of course she survived, but thanks to Ed, I knew what Azoun and Fee would do - they comforted him, and then recruited him as their agent)
Bottom Line: Your game and enjoyment are solely based on what you and your players want. Canon is only there if you want it to be, to serve as a frameowrk and a ground for cool characters, campaigns and ideas. Details can be confining and 'railroading', but only if you choose so. If you pick what you want, they can build an amazing campaign.
Also, Weldon Chen's view is also worth checking out: http://www.dragonlanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?20429-A-window-into-how-Chris-Sims |
"Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly.
How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
"Yea, though he live a thousand years twice, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" - Ecclesiastes VI, 6.
"There are no stupid questions just a bunch of inquisitive idiots."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2010 : 21:16:04
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All arguments that are for pro-canon novels are made void by the simple fact that Eberron novels aren't canon, they have an online version of that setting in which the actions of various groups and NPCs are not canon either, and their community is FAR more stable then ours now. Stability + fan-acceptance = successful.
Originally, the plan was to move Eberron's timeline forward as well, although not anywhere near as drastic as what FR got (2-5 yrs, IIRC). When 4e debuted, and 4eFR was released, the community backlash was so intense that the WotC guys back-peddled and decided not to move Eberron's timeline forward.
And the novels still aren't canon....
The difference? Eberron is a game setting; The Realms no longer are. D&D drives Eberron, novel-sales FR.
The decisions made by official WotC employees regarding Eberron clearly shows that they agree that canon novels ruin a game setting, as do RSE's and major timeline shifting. They do not want to hurt Eberron's game sales, so Eberron exists in a timeless vacuum.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I don't think you can ever take canon away from novels. The number of people whose only exposure to the Realms and DnD in general is through the novels. They actually dwarf the number of people who play the game. The novels have to remain the driving force for the overall narrative of the setting, otherwise you will drive away the money that supports the game product.
Accent, mine.
And this is precisely why FR gets a different treatment then Eberron. We no longer matter - we are very insignificant piece of the pie. It is why FR became the 'test bed' for 4e, like a lamb getting lead to slaughter. Once all the kinks got worked out, they were able to release the REAL game setting. Novel fans don't care how good or bad the 4e FRCG was - most will never see it - all they care about is the next novel.
And before I get attacked (my Grognard-senses are tingling  ), let me just add that I HAVE read several 4e Realms novels, and enjoyed them, for the most part. Swordmage happened to have a very Realmsian feel to it, and aside from a couple of oblique references, it could be set in the pre-plague Realms easily enough. I could probably go so far as to say that I have enjoyed just as many, if not more, of the newer novels (tail-end of 3e included here), proportionately, as I have the older Realms novels. There is no excuse for the bad ones (in any edition), and there is no getting around how enjoyable the newer ones are (the few I have read).
Which means, since I don't buy 4e realms gaming products, but still buy FR novels, that WotC actually made the RIGHT DECISION - FR as a game-setting has become inconsequential, unfortunately. Not saying I like that fact - I still love the Realms - but if I were in-charge of making some of the business decisions at WotC, I may very well have come to the same conclusions and made those same choices. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jul 2010 21:18:29 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2010 : 21:26:12
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Keith Baker on the Eberron Boards
quote:
Also, I believe Mr.Baker mentioned in another thread that the books weren't selling as well as hoped...
quote:
I don't know expectations or full numbers, but I know they can be hard to find. As I see it, the main thing is that sales today are what will drive WotC to decide whether or not to continue supporting Eberron in the future. So thanks to all of you who are continuing to support the setting!
As a side note, while The Dreaming Dark is now out of print, I've discovered that TDD and Thorn books are all available on Kindle (and for other ereaders, I hope).
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I do agree about the 4E Realms novels. The 4E Realms novels that I have read(almost all of them) are pretty good. I just read them for the stories. I can really careless about cannon now, I homebrew. |
Edited by - Brimstone on 10 Jul 2010 21:46:47 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2010 : 21:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Keith Baker on the Eberron Boards
I do agree about the 4E Realms novels. The 4E Realms novels that I have read(almost all of them) are pretty good. I just read them for the stories. I can really careless about cannon now, I homebrew.
Just read Keith's comments. It seems novels are the measure of a setting's popularity and audience size. Therein lies the crux of the novel/canon problem. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2010 : 22:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I do agree about the 4E Realms novels. The 4E Realms novels that I have read (almost all of them) are pretty good. I just read them for the stories. I can really careless about cannon now, I homebrew.
I have always done so - I make no allusions to my Realms being anything like the canon ones, except in flavor and overall storylines (I try to always ADD, and never SUBTRACT from the setting). I have even done some crazy stuff that would make some of the less-palatable RSE's look like a sumptuous feast. 
BUT... those are MY realms, and only my players have to tolerate any idiocy I throw at them (which used to be quite a lot).
I certainly wasn't such a canon-Nazi until I started hanging out at the WotC boards, and then later here. I came to appreciate the intricate complexity of the setting, and how past designers (mostly) tried to work-within a very logical framework, and often bounced ideas off each other so they were all on the same page. You can really see that in 2e and the early part of 3e - many of the past inconsistencies were wiped-clean by explanations, and FR became a very mature gaming environment.
Anyway, the setting I talk about online, and the one I like to play in, are two very different beasts, and as of late, I'm starting to not care so much about canon anymore. If all I am doing (in FR) is going to be reading novels, then I can easily pretend that each one of them takes place in a vacuum separate from everything else. A good yarn is still a good yarn.
And I can thank 4e for relieving me of my... ummmm... obsession? ... with canon. It has set me free - I've learned to take everything official with a grain of salt.
After all, its all just make-believe... why get worked-up over it?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2010 : 22:49:04
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The article is a fine description of a good way to do things, and I agree personally with much of the argument, but Chris claims it's the best way, which is like arguing freeform poetry is better than sonnet-writing, or a free-with-facts historical novel better than a factually accurate one. His model of a 'game world' -- which neither the Realms nor Krynn has ever exactly been, of course -- is likewise one of a plurality, much like Wizards talk about game balance.
No discussion of 'canon' applies very far to the Realms that doesn't even mention the central fact of Ed's emphasis on mutability and unreliability -- and Wizards' removal of this emphasis -- as well as on the local and the personal.
The Realms was first published with a natural, indigenous, functional way to 'move the setting' -- meaning the timeline -- forward, month-by-month current clack. Events that were transparently contrived for size rather than emerging from the world, that were described with minimal attention to their long- or even short-term consequences and rarely explained in sourcebooks (making them invisible to many DMs except by the seeming contradictions they caused) clearly aren't an efficient way to achieve that aim; not surprisingly, since they weren't done for that purpose, but to exploit a demand for self-important spectacle they manufactured and fostered in the first place. |
Edited by - Faraer on 10 Jul 2010 23:31:22 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 01:13:47
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First, I have always only used bits and pieces from the novels I liked in my games, the novels (and events therein) were never automatically canon in my Realms.
Second, it seems to me the easiest thing to do with the novels (way too late obviously) would have been to make every novel have to be either a)set in the past (even if just in the near past), or b) set in the "current year" (ie 1358), but be of minor world significance (ie, something like the Ring of Winter). This would have avoided all of the RSE/canon creep and would have still been entertaining, since everyone loves history and it would have fleshed out the "real" feel of the Realms even more than "contemporary" dated stories (ie the Moonshae Trilogy) was way more useful to running a game in the Moonshaes than any novel with a contemporary spin on it.
Oh well, what could have been (especially had Gary not had a bad business acumen). |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 01:14:50
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First, I have always only used bits and pieces from the novels I liked in my games, the novels (and events therein) were never automatically canon in my Realms.
Second, it seems to me the easiest thing to do with the novels (way too late obviously) would have been to make every novel have to be either a)set in the past (even if just in the near past), or b) set in the "current year" (ie 1358), but be of minor world significance (ie, something like the Ring of Winter). This would have avoided all of the RSE/canon creep and would have still been entertaining, since everyone loves history and it would have fleshed out the "real" feel of the Realms even more than "contemporary" dated stories (ie the Moonshae Trilogy) was way more useful to running a game in the Moonshaes than any novel with a contemporary spin on it.
Oh well, what could have been (especially had Gary not had a bad business acumen). |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 01:26:34
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I, as a canon-nazi, am glad that WotC/Hasbro has never introduced any lore in any edition which violates previously established canon. Although it can be difficult for many fans to keep up with all the lore, connect the dots, and tell the difference between an Alteration ret-con and an Addition ret-con, the joy that comes from being part of the GREATEST SHARED WORLD EVER makes it all worth it.
WotC/Hasbro Designers of the Forgotten Realms, I salute you! |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 02:05:05
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Canon or no canon, I care not. What matters to me is I am enjoying the novels (most). I read quite a number of other shared worlds, DL, Eb, MtG, Warhammer, WoW, etc., and I must say, though I have fun reading them, it is FR that really provides me great entertainment.
Re: the resetting to some distant year in the past, I think it sounds good. But the question is, what guarantee do we have that Wizards will not make some changes in that reset Realms akin to the those in 4E? I am not a 4E-hater, but neither am I an ardent fan or defender. I say there are some thrash in the current edition that calls for far more than a mere sweeping. Thankfully, my favorite authors, and even some new ones, still manage to brew great novels. And at the end of the day, it is all that matters to me!
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 03:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
All arguments that are for pro-canon novels are made void by the simple fact that Eberron novels aren't canon, they have an online version of that setting in which the actions of various groups and NPCs are not canon either, and their community is FAR more stable then ours now. Stability + fan-acceptance = successful.
Originally, the plan was to move Eberron's timeline forward as well, although not anywhere near as drastic as what FR got (2-5 yrs, IIRC). When 4e debuted, and 4eFR was released, the community backlash was so intense that the WotC guys back-peddled and decided not to move Eberron's timeline forward.
And the novels still aren't canon....
The difference? Eberron is a game setting; The Realms no longer are. D&D drives Eberron, novel-sales FR.
The decisions made by official WotC employees regarding Eberron clearly shows that they agree that canon novels ruin a game setting, as do RSE's and major timeline shifting. They do not want to hurt Eberron's game sales, so Eberron exists in a timeless vacuum.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I don't think you can ever take canon away from novels. The number of people whose only exposure to the Realms and DnD in general is through the novels. They actually dwarf the number of people who play the game. The novels have to remain the driving force for the overall narrative of the setting, otherwise you will drive away the money that supports the game product.
Accent, mine.
And this is precisely why FR gets a different treatment then Eberron. We no longer matter - we are very insignificant piece of the pie. It is why FR became the 'test bed' for 4e, like a lamb getting lead to slaughter. Once all the kinks got worked out, they were able to release the REAL game setting. Novel fans don't care how good or bad the 4e FRCG was - most will never see it - all they care about is the next novel.
And before I get attacked (my Grognard-senses are tingling ), let me just add that I HAVE read several 4e Realms novels, and enjoyed them, for the most part. Swordmage happened to have a very Realmsian feel to it, and aside from a couple of oblique references, it could be set in the pre-plague Realms easily enough. I could probably go so far as to say that I have enjoyed just as many, if not more, of the newer novels (tail-end of 3e included here), proportionately, as I have the older Realms novels. There is no excuse for the bad ones (in any edition), and there is no getting around how enjoyable the newer ones are (the few I have read).
Which means, since I don't buy 4e realms gaming products, but still buy FR novels, that WotC actually made the RIGHT DECISION - FR as a game-setting has become inconsequential, unfortunately. Not saying I like that fact - I still love the Realms - but if I were in-charge of making some of the business decisions at WotC, I may very well have come to the same conclusions and made those same choices.
That was my big beef against Eberron is that the novels weren't canon, well my BIG beef is that they didn't use the Realms for DnD Online, but that is an old beef.
This next part isn't a response to you Markustay, it's more of a general response to the thread.
Why all of this talk about FR dying as a game setting? What does it really matter that things have changed a great deal since its inception? I mean, a well invested DM should be customizing the Realms to fit his campaign anyways. Only the casual DMs should be utilizing the default world and adventures. Isn't this the most fleshed out and deep settings out there? Isn't there a ton of history to delve into? I agree that WoTC doesn't know how to handle the setting, but even after all the damage they have done, it is still a vibrant and deep world. I've always believed that when a good artist or craftsman encounters adversity they create their best work from it. I think there is a reality with the current world of DnD that makes it difficult for WoTC to deliver what we all want. Maybe we all as a collective need to take this into account and help WoTC shape their handling of the Realms in a better but realistic way rather than give it up for dead. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 04:45:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I, as a canon-nazi, am glad that WotC/Hasbro has never introduced any lore in any edition which violates previously established canon. Although it can be difficult for many fans to keep up with all the lore, connect the dots, and tell the difference between an Alteration ret-con and an Addition ret-con, the joy that comes from being part of the GREATEST SHARED WORLD EVER makes it all worth it.
WotC/Hasbro Designers of the Forgotten Realms, I salute you!
accent mine......i think I would be best to leave that alone.....especially since I cannot begin to count the instances where they did exactly that. I have read many well written opinions about how the murder of Mystra/Sellplague violated prior canon in many, many ways.
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 04:58:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I, as a canon-nazi, am glad that WotC/Hasbro has never introduced any lore in any edition which violates previously established canon. Although it can be difficult for many fans to keep up with all the lore, connect the dots, and tell the difference between an Alteration ret-con and an Addition ret-con, the joy that comes from being part of the GREATEST SHARED WORLD EVER makes it all worth it.
WotC/Hasbro Designers of the Forgotten Realms, I salute you!
You work for them, don't you? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 05:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I, as a canon-nazi, am glad that WotC/Hasbro has never introduced any lore in any edition which violates previously established canon. Although it can be difficult for many fans to keep up with all the lore, connect the dots, and tell the difference between an Alteration ret-con and an Addition ret-con, the joy that comes from being part of the GREATEST SHARED WORLD EVER makes it all worth it.
WotC/Hasbro Designers of the Forgotten Realms, I salute you!
accent mine......i think I would be best to leave that alone.....especially since I cannot begin to count the instances where they did exactly that. I have read many well written opinions about how the murder of Mystra/Sellplague violated prior canon in many, many ways.
Please don't start arguing with BC on the retcons and such. We've already had two threads closed because of it. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 05:33:08
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I like having novels be considered canon and move the setting forward, I just don't like how badly it's documented. I'd like all of the videogames to be considered canon as well. I just don't always like the way it's handled.
If the novels were set a good 5 years ahead of the setting, then novel events wouldn't step on the toes of current games in the realms.
If at the end of every (actual year) they released a "What's happening in the realms", which mentions all the major events which occur (from a third party perspective, we don't care that drizzt has x conversation with y other character on x date as much as x keep falls because of drizzt and y), their dates, in the upcoming year and the novels/sources that have already detailed them, Then Moving the realms forward would not be nearly as disruptive, and I'd find it to be quite enjoyable. If x FR date had the calendar date in C.E. listed when that event is said to have already happened as well, that would be also cool. then I could, by default, say whatever day my campaign starts in is determined by when I start it, unless I intentionally run something in the past.
As for BC, I (and it seems like others) have taken the stance that if we disagree with something he says, just ignore the post entirely, thereby avoiding the circular arguments which will likely ensue if the post is debated. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 05:49:11
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Okay fellow scribes, we've been doing well to avoid these kinds of conflicts between certain individuals over the last few weeks. Let's try to maintain that trend, eh?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 06:21:09
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Sorry.
I should have stated more nicely: "If you seem to be being baited into an argument, try to avoid it."
How would people feel about a piece of fan-work that collects all the events in Faerun that occur in a given year, and then details them as they would effect campaigns set in that year.
Say, 5-15 pages per year?
We could start all the way back at 1357. Then list everything that happens in 1357, provide an overview as to how it would affect people who weren't there, and then cite the source for GMs who want more detail. Maybe make it a new ongoing project. We could have a couple going at once, say, one for each edition, at a time. Each event would need dates attached to it.
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Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
Edited by - Sylrae on 11 Jul 2010 06:26:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 06:36:16
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"Elminster, Drizzt, & Larloch walk into a bar....."
Long live the Realms! Hip-hip, Hooray!!!
And God save the Queen... or the Regent... or whatever....
In the immortal words of John Lennon, "I'm just sittin' here watchin' the wheels go round and round..."
Read the lyrics... boy do they work for us... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jul 2010 06:39:38 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 08:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
How would people feel about a piece of fan-work that collects all the events in Faerun that occur in a given year, and then details them as they would effect campaigns set in that year.
Say, 5-15 pages per year?
We could start all the way back at 1357. Then list everything that happens in 1357, provide an overview as to how it would affect people who weren't there, and then cite the source for GMs who want more detail. Maybe make it a new ongoing project. We could have a couple going at once, say, one for each edition, at a time. Each event would need dates attached to it.
You mean like the "Current Clack" project that's been kind of on-and-off here at Candlekeep for the past 6 or so years?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 08:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
How would people feel about a piece of fan-work that collects all the events in Faerun that occur in a given year, and then details them as they would effect campaigns set in that year.
Say, 5-15 pages per year?
We could start all the way back at 1357. Then list everything that happens in 1357, provide an overview as to how it would affect people who weren't there, and then cite the source for GMs who want more detail. Maybe make it a new ongoing project. We could have a couple going at once, say, one for each edition, at a time. Each event would need dates attached to it.
You mean like the "Current Clack" project that's been kind of on-and-off here at Candlekeep for the past 6 or so years?
The Grand History of the Realms? |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
729 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 09:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The Grand History of the Realms?
If by that you mean the Brain R. James (and others) sourcebook, then "No."
All kudos to Brian, but it would have had to be about twice (perhaps thrice) as thick to have included everything (even just as a broad chronology as was the format) that had happened in every prior novel and sourcebook. More so for what had happened in the novels, since that (and the canonicity of) is what is in part being discussed here. Less for the sourcebooks, as a lot of the chronology was taken verbatim out of prior sourcebooks anyway.
It still makes a very good consolidated reference. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 12:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
How would people feel about a piece of fan-work that collects all the events in Faerun that occur in a given year, and then details them as they would effect campaigns set in that year.
Say, 5-15 pages per year?
We could start all the way back at 1357. Then list everything that happens in 1357, provide an overview as to how it would affect people who weren't there, and then cite the source for GMs who want more detail. Maybe make it a new ongoing project. We could have a couple going at once, say, one for each edition, at a time. Each event would need dates attached to it.
Or something like Mystara's Poor Wizatd's Almanacs? Those were continued for about 4-5 years gametime after the official Almanacs were discontinued. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 15:05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
The Grand History of the Realms?
If by that you mean the Brain R. James (and others) sourcebook, then "No."
All kudos to Brian, but it would have had to be about twice (perhaps thrice) as thick to have included everything (even just as a broad chronology as was the format) that had happened in every prior novel and sourcebook. More so for what had happened in the novels, since that (and the canonicity of) is what is in part being discussed here. Less for the sourcebooks, as a lot of the chronology was taken verbatim out of prior sourcebooks anyway.
It still makes a very good consolidated reference.
Hate to disagree with you here, but Brian's work was originally taking every event that was listed in an novel or sourcebook and putting it in a timeline. Going by Catalyst Game Lab's Sixth World Almanac, you don't really need to go further than 1-2 pages per year to bring across what happens in the Realms. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 16:11:20
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Few people across Faerūn have much sense of what's going on in the Realms generally, or conceive it in that top-down 'battles, disasters, important people' sense. No broad-based but selective history like that is going to give a good sense of what it's like to live in any one place. The Grand History is an impressive achievement and an excellent resource, but unless read with care it can contribute to the more or less 'one big thing at a time that everyone knows about' type of history we get from the RSEs and the way they're written up in places like the Player's Guide to Faerūn, which doesn't much resemble the weave of simultaneous, mainly local unfoldings that concern folk who live there.
This 'fog of war' is one of the Realms' central literary effects. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 16:36:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae
How would people feel about a piece of fan-work that collects all the events in Faerun that occur in a given year, and then details them as they would effect campaigns set in that year.
Say, 5-15 pages per year?
We could start all the way back at 1357. Then list everything that happens in 1357, provide an overview as to how it would affect people who weren't there, and then cite the source for GMs who want more detail. Maybe make it a new ongoing project. We could have a couple going at once, say, one for each edition, at a time. Each event would need dates attached to it.
You mean like the "Current Clack" project that's been kind of on-and-off here at Candlekeep for the past 6 or so years?
The Grand History of the Realms?
Not as such, no. 'Twas really an idea that I and a few other scribes came up with back before the genesis of the original Candlekeep Compendium.
Basically, we started deciding on a method to present regular "Clack"-styled entries of new Realmslore and details about events in the setting, here at Candlekeep. The lore would become much like the "Current Clack" information presented in the older pre-3e FR sources. Eventually, the idea evolved, and became the first Volume of the Candlekeep Compendium. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2010 : 17:51:20
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| Perhaps future editions of the Candlekeep Compendiums could have something similar at the end of select articles. A current clack style entry could be a seed for further elaboration on its related lore. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 01:30:46
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I, for one, believe the Compendiums should be useful to running an FR game, and not just present lore for lore's sake.
For instance, if you wanted to do an article on the Fey Creator Race (Le'Shay, I believe, is now accepted canon), it should describe a 'typical dwelling' or settlement, and then name one such 'ruin' somewhere. Maybe even include a couple of named magical items, or some powerful forgotten spell/ritual.
The article could still convey much Realmslore that way, and yet be immediately useful to a DM scrounging for his next session. Think of it as a type of 'Volo's Guide', telling a story AND giving us important info.
Otherwise, the CKC slips from the realm of 'netbook' into 'fan-fiction'. Some folks might not see the difference, it is a fine line, but I think more folks would read it if it was useful to their games, and having the thing read should be our primary goal.
Anyway, probably not the right thread for this, but the right one went so off-track I don't even remember where we left off.
*Self-Edit: Re-reading this, it almost appears if I am targeting a particular scribe, which I AM NOT - it just happened to be the first example to jump to mind. I've enjoyed EVERY article presented in the compendiums; if anyone knows me at all, you will know I am a HUGE fan of FR's ancient past. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2010 08:31:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 04:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The article could still convey much Realmslore that way, and yet be immediately useful to a DM searching scrounging for his next session. Think of it as a type of 'Volo's Guide', telling a story AND giving us important info.
That was a lot of what I tried to do with my Hooks: give a DM enough to start an adventure, and let them take it someplace. I'll admit I had a few weak offerings (particularly the first batch), but I think I did a decent job of giving other folks something to run with.
Hell, I've still got a batch of Hooks written and ready for another volume, and I just had a random image wander thru my brain the other day, spawning a new Hook. I've been more than a little tempted to just go ahead and toss them out here, on the forums. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 04:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The article could still convey much Realmslore that way, and yet be immediately useful to a DM searching scrounging for his next session. Think of it as a type of 'Volo's Guide', telling a story AND giving us important info.
I've tinkered with a derivative of this idea -- here and there -- over the years. Basically, it boils down to my working on a "Current Clack" for Realms musical events:- bardic performances, minstrel tournaments, who is playing what and where, the "hot" performances and bards of the month, future scheduled concerts, bardic gatherings and so forth, and where the best musical venues are across the Realms.
A brief snapshot of this format was presented in the Realms-music submission for the printed DRAGON I offered years ago, and I've been quietly thinking about how and where to present a much more extended version, given the article's unlikely publication future.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jul 2010 04:21:21 |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 05:45:47
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| What's "Current" Clack? What year? |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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