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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2010 :  22:37:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a shot in the dark -

I think the next product that will contain Realmslore will be a book on the Feywild, and it will contain info on Evermeet.

We were told we are getting more lore, and we also know that we were told that no more setting-specific products will be forthcoming for the Realms (The whole 'a setting a year' thing). Ergo, the only 'Realmslore' we can possibly see in print (in source, NOT novel) is a place that was in the Realms and now is actually part of another setting.

Besides, isn't there a 'fey Power Source' or some-such that they haven't produced a splat for yet?

Just a guess, mind you, and I doubt they will let either of the FR experts on the Elves (Ed and Elaine) anywhere near it, but we just be getting a little more detail about the Eladrin (our old Sun, Moon, and Star Elves) and the history of Evermeet out of all this (which could possibly be a good thing).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe

545 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2010 :  23:15:51  Show Profile Send Mr_Miscellany a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why would you think Ed and Elaine would be deliberately (not the word you used, I know, but that's how your post reads) excluded?

My first thought is that Iíd expect WotC to go with their in-house staff on something like an Feywild/Evermeet book. But who knows, they could just as easily farm the work out to established freelancers like the James brothers (and we know they arenít averse to talking with the wise ones). ;)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2010 :  23:54:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Elaine only writes novels, AFAIK, and they have 'over-written' quite a bit of lore she created, as of late.

As for Ed - in the 4e FRCG I note that they stuck him off in a corner, FAR AWAY from the Realms he created. Not casting any 'evil motives' toward WotC here - I just think that one of 4e's design goals was to distance itself from all FR preconceptions, and unfortunately, for non-fans, Ed was one of them.

Besides, his Elves are probably not the way they want to go in 4e. They appear to have gotten more Fey-like (which I approve of, BTW), and less Tolkienesque.

Funny thing is, they would probably do well to ask Elaine for help - she was going with them in that direction all along . Tintageer came from Faerie, Drow were frightened by 'Fey Music' in that Halruaa series, and Queen Amluiral's daughter Ilyrana was most-definately a 'throw back' (recessive gene?} to an earlier, more Fey-like Elf - all lore Elaine created, and works within the 4e lore's accepted canon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe

545 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  00:06:43  Show Profile Send Mr_Miscellany a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markus, Ed was in on 4E from the get go (that is, at least two years prior to 4Eís release).

I remember him sitting next to Eric Boyd at the GenCon panel where the 4E Realms was announced. As I recall, he actually was first to speak.

I believe Ed was also instrumental in Waterdeepís current form.

Iím curious how you came to conclude that because Ed wrote Returned Abeir, this means he didnít write or create any other part of the 4E FRCG or otherwise advise or help?

Are there comments to this effect in Edís answers? Or from some other source. Iíd love to read Ďem if you have a link.

Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 25 Jun 2010 00:12:41
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  00:12:37  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only news I know of is Heroes of Shadow coming out next March. It will allow players to choose the Assassin, Hexblade and Necromancer classes.

(apparently, there's one guy on the WotC boards complaining because he's a subscriber to DDI and there's been no announcement for the subscribers and found out about it through word of mouth.)

Also, I love how they are bending to the whims of the fans and putting the evil classes out for play.

quote:
Players Handbook, p. 19
If you choose an alignment for your character, you should pick either good or lawful good. Unless your DM is running a campaign in which all the characters are evil or chaotic evil, playing an evil or chaotic evil character disrupts an adventuring party and, frankly, makes all the other players angry at you.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2874 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  00:34:27  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We will get some Evermeet lore in Elaine's next Realms novel.(I hope.)

A 4E novel at that...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29800 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  03:25:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany

Markus, Ed was in on 4E from the get go (that is, at least two years prior to 4Eís release).

I remember him sitting next to Eric Boyd at the GenCon panel where the 4E Realms was announced. As I recall, he actually was first to speak.

I believe Ed was also instrumental in Waterdeepís current form.

Iím curious how you came to conclude that because Ed wrote Returned Abeir, this means he didnít write or create any other part of the 4E FRCG or otherwise advise or help?

Are there comments to this effect in Edís answers? Or from some other source. Iíd love to read Ďem if you have a link.




Keep in mind, though, that for a lot of things in the 4E Realms, Ed was working within design constraints created by others.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  03:41:27  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed's explained part of the restraints and procedures he worked under during the development of 4e Realmslore, in his past replies [around late '08, as I recall].

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe

545 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  04:02:15  Show Profile Send Mr_Miscellany a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Keep in mind, though, that for a lot of things in the 4E Realms, Ed was working within design constraints created by others.

This is not actually something new for him.

Ed's been under the design constraints of others since he sold off the Realms.


Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 25 Jun 2010 04:02:52
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29800 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  04:20:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Keep in mind, though, that for a lot of things in the 4E Realms, Ed was working within design constraints created by others.

This is not actually something new for him.

Ed's been under the design constraints of others since he sold off the Realms.





Yeah, but there's a difference between "leave this area alone" and "okay, this is now like this, make it pretty".

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe

545 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  04:25:37  Show Profile Send Mr_Miscellany a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah, but there's a difference between "leave this area alone" and "okay, this is now like this, make it pretty".
Still not getting it. This is splitting hairs.


Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 25 Jun 2010 04:33:45
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Dracons
Learned Scribe

USA
299 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  05:29:26  Show Profile  Visit Dracons's Homepage  Send Dracons a Yahoo! Message Send Dracons a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart


Also, I love how they are bending to the whims of the fans and putting the evil classes out for play.

quote:
Players Handbook, p. 19
If you choose an alignment for your character, you should pick either good or lawful good. Unless your DM is running a campaign in which all the characters are evil or chaotic evil, playing an evil or chaotic evil character disrupts an adventuring party and, frankly, makes all the other players angry at you.




Meh. My players enjoy being evil characters. Just because they are evil does not mean they slay everything left and right, betray each other for a copper piece etc. Just means they have a different view point.

I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi.
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  05:59:50  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the design constraints of previous years were vastly different than the design policy of the 4E era. While Ed worked under design constraints since the beginning of the published setting, the actual constraints varied vastly from edition to edition (and even within each edition).

Still I feel the situation probably turned out closer to how Mr. Misc described it. Ed no doubt consulted for various parts of the new Realms. Ed has done a lot of background work for everything Realms related (and often Core related) that is not often clearly demarcated with bylines.

The whole Returned Abeir thing was given to Ed in order to "sell" the extremely new bits. So instead of shuffling Ed off to a distant corner, I feel it was more like the designers asking Ed to help work in an very raw and perhaps jarring piece of the new setting. After that, it was one of the first pieces of lore they put on the web as a teaser or preview. It was probably one of they pieces the designers were most unsure about. Giving it to Ed lends Abeir a bit more innate legitimacy, thus abating its radical newness.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29800 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  06:11:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah, but there's a difference between "leave this area alone" and "okay, this is now like this, make it pretty".
Still not getting it. This is splitting hairs.





It's not splitting hairs. It's like being told "Make something for dinner, but not tacos, because we had that last week" or being told "I want a grilled chicken sandwich."

The first request has much leeway with only a minor restriction -- outside of tacos, he could make any meal he felt like, any way he wanted. The second request, on the other hand, was fairly specific. Yeah, there's different ways that a grilled chicken sandwich could be prepared, but no matter how you do it, the end result is still a grilled chicken sandwich.

And yes, I've chatted with enough of the authors/designers to know that at least for some areas of the 4E Realms, there were guidelines Ed had to follow -- guidelines as specific as my grilled chicken sandwich example.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jun 2010 06:12:13
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  08:30:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I get this opinion of mine (regarding Ed and the 4e realms) because when he is asked a question the 4e realms, outside of returned Abeir, he now side-steps it and says something to the effect "I don't know what the 4e designers plans are for that area so I'd rather not give out information that would prove innacurate".

Not a direct quote, but he has said something to that affect several times now. He HAS answered questions about Returned Abeir though. This is the very first time in FR history where Ed does not feel he is a 'reliable source' for information about any part of the Realms. They managed to finally figure-out a clever way of curtailing his (contract-granted) ability to generate canon Realmslore on-the-fly.

So he feels comfortable answering questions about Returned Abeir, but not 4e Faerun - what am I supposed to think?

Also, if you re-read what Ed wrote about those early meetings, you will see that Ed AND Bob Salvatore were both against the idea of the 4e realms, and had to be talked-into it. I get the idea that the decision was actually made by a very small group of people and everyone had to be talked into it (back when Rich Baker was still answering my queries, he indicated he was also one of the early naysayers).

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a debate, I just had this weird suspicion that a Fey book was in the works. Who knows?

Doesn't really matter all that much to me; I don't buy 4e books.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe

545 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  10:30:45  Show Profile Send Mr_Miscellany a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly:

How are Ed's "guidelines" any different than those he's been under for the last twenty years?

Again, Wooly, what specifically are you telling us that's new or different about Ed's work, or that supports Markus bold suppositions that WotC tried on purpose to limit Ed's influence?

As for your comments, Markus: you start by saying you don't want to "cast any evil motives" about WotC, then you do exactly that when you say, "They managed to finally figure-out a clever way of curtailing his (contract-granted) ability to generate canon Realmslore on-the-fly."

That's the kind of subtle garbage talk that's so tiresome and flameworthy, and an example of the sort of conversations people have about Candlekeep on other, respectable forums. To wit: "I don't visit Candlkeep anymore because they'll subtly bait you then either jump all over you or claim no wrong was done when you call them on it."

I admit it must be nice to have a free pass from the moderators to continuously bash WotC and put words in other's (namely Ed's) mouth. It just sucks that we can't even talk about new source material without someone tossing in nasty side comments and negativity.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29800 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  11:49:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany

Wooly:

How are Ed's "guidelines" any different than those he's been under for the last twenty years?

Again, Wooly, what specifically are you telling us that's new or different about Ed's work, or that supports Markus bold suppositions that WotC tried on purpose to limit Ed's influence?


*sigh* I really have to spell it out? There are parts of the 4E Realms where it was dictated to Ed exactly what that area of the Realms was like, in broad terms, with him left to explain it and/or polish it up. This differs from Ed's earlier involvement, when he would have looser guidelines, like "hey, give us something on these people or this area".

In other words, rather than being allowed to worldbuild as he has previously done, he was filling in the blanks in someone else's worldbuilding. So again, it's the difference between being asked to cook anything but tacos and being asked for a grilled chicken sandwich.

quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany

I admit it must be nice to have a free pass from the moderators to continuously bash WotC and put words in other's (namely Ed's) mouth. It just sucks that we can't even talk about new source material without someone tossing in nasty side comments and negativity.




This is very out of line. No one has a free pass to bash anyone else, and there is enough negative commentary going in both directions. It'd be really nice if people were actually free to state their own opinions without being attacked by folks holding the opposite opinion. The edition wars we've seen are not one-sided. If we could just respect each other's opinions and not feel obligated to respond to anything vaguely negative, there would be a lot less tension here.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3291 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  16:53:00  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a shot in the dark -

I think the next product that will contain Realmslore will be a book on the Feywild, and it will contain info on Evermeet.

We were told we are getting more lore, and we also know that we were told that no more setting-specific products will be forthcoming for the Realms (The whole 'a setting a year' thing). Ergo, the only 'Realmslore' we can possibly see in print (in source, NOT novel) is a place that was in the Realms and now is actually part of another setting.

Besides, isn't there a 'fey Power Source' or some-such that they haven't produced a splat for yet?

Just a guess, mind you, and I doubt they will let either of the FR experts on the Elves (Ed and Elaine) anywhere near it, but we just be getting a little more detail about the Eladrin (our old Sun, Moon, and Star Elves) and the history of Evermeet out of all this (which could possibly be a good thing).



Well I for one am excited to see more lore (even if it's core) on the Feywild and hopefully on Evermeet. Even though Evermeet still exists in my personal Realms, parts of it ebb and flow into the Feywild like shifting curtains so I could still use alot of material from that. I'd say that's some good speculation MT.

As for Fey being a power-source, I don't think it's going to be one. From the player's handbook, we were given some example of power-sources that we would see in up-coming installments (Ki, Shadow, Psionic) and with Ki being dissolved I'm not sure where else they can go.

@ Ashe Ravenheart: I hadn't known they were putting out a book for Shadow users either and that is frickin' awesome! I had my own reservations as to whether or not they would put the Shadow source in the next Player's Handbook installment but making a book for in and of itself really gets my hopes up. Thanks for the link man!

And as far as im concerned with Ed's work on 4e and 4eFR, I think it's been pretty good and I'm excited to try a campaign in Returned Abier. The fact that he is still contributing to the edition and setting is a good enough indicator to me that WotC would use him (and possibly Elaine) for reference material (if not game material) concerning Elves and Fey in general.

Does it really matter what constraints Ed was put under in helping create 4eFR so long as we (as in the FR community) have is support?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader

USA
3071 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  17:30:47  Show Profile Send Ashe Ravenheart a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a review of the rest of the items being released this spring. The only mention of the Forgotten Realms is a Dungeon Tiles titled "Caverns of the Icewind Dales". No Feywild/Evermeet yet. Also, a lot of the grumbling/mumbling going on from the Spring Catalog reviews is it sounds like there won't be a PHB4, since the Shadow book might replace it.

Granted, I'd expect all the *REAL* announcements to come at GenCon.

I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.

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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe

545 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  17:43:43  Show Profile Send Mr_Miscellany a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markus: I apologize for sidetracking your scroll. This will be my last statement, then I'll bow out of it for good.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

...he was filling in the blanks in someone else's world building.
Wooly, is it false for me to say, ďEd's already been doing this for yearsĒ?

Lots of other people have been world building in the Realms the last couple of decades, and Ed has been nice enough to either fill in the blanks about such work on the "Ask Ed" thread, or politely defer to another author or designer who did the original work.

Edís has never been the only hand in the pot.

Itís your opinion that Edís assigned work on 4E is of a kind wholly different that his prior assigned work on earlier editions. I donít believe the relevant facts support this opinion, but Iím not going to tell you youíre ďwrongĒ.

Itís your opinion. We can agree to disagree, I think, and leave it at that.

As for the moderation, please see my PM.

Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 25 Jun 2010 17:52:33
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2010 :  20:47:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry Misc. - sometimes I go into 'evil corporation' mode without meaning to. Just because Ed was NOT INVOLVED INITIALLY in the FRCG, until a cry of outrage went up from the fans, is no reason for me to think that WotC ever intended to "leave him out".

Please feel free to debate THAT POINT, when you know godam well it's true - you were also a regular over on the WotC boards when the 'surprise announcement' was made. I don't 'read-into' other people's motives without basing it on a LOT of evidence. It is entirely possible that the fact that Ed Greenwood created the Forgotten Realms slipped the minds of the 4e design team when they were working on the early version of the FRCG.

Anyhow, getting back to my speculation, which was never meant to insight yet-another 4e war, the fact that they are coming out with an unannounced Shadow book now makes me believe that a Fey book is indeed in the works. In 2e/3e, there was a bit of a trend to come out with books that were 'polar opposites' (Angels/Devils, Lords of Darkness/Champions of valor, etc..), and it is a given that although the Feywild isn't technically the 'opposite' of the Shadowfel, it is as close as it it gets in the new cosmology. Fey are all about 'life', and shadow... well... you know...

Like I said, not a perfect fit - in reality fey are more about 'balance' (kinda druidic), but if the shadow book was a change, then I see no reason why we couldn't possibly getting a Fey book as well. Besides, some designer mentioned 'good news' WHILE we were discussing the Eladrin, which is what lead me down this train of thought.

They shunted Ravenloft into the Shadowfel, and Evermeet into Faerie - I'm sure they had far-reaching goals when they were designing 4e and it's product-line.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3291 Posts

Posted - 27 Jun 2010 :  15:42:03  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Anyhow, getting back to my speculation, which was never meant to insight yet-another 4e war, the fact that they are coming out with an unannounced Shadow book now makes me believe that a Fey book is indeed in the works. In 2e/3e, there was a bit of a trend to come out with books that were 'polar opposites' (Angels/Devils, Lords of Darkness/Champions of valor, etc..), and it is a given that although the Feywild isn't technically the 'opposite' of the Shadowfel, it is as close as it it gets in the new cosmology. Fey are all about 'life', and shadow... well... you know...

Like I said, not a perfect fit - in reality fey are more about 'balance' (kinda druidic), but if the shadow book was a change, then I see no reason why we couldn't possibly getting a Fey book as well. Besides, some designer mentioned 'good news' WHILE we were discussing the Eladrin, which is what lead me down this train of thought.

They shunted Ravenloft into the Shadowfel, and Evermeet into Faerie - I'm sure they had far-reaching goals when they were designing 4e and it's product-line.



Well if they do a "Heroes of the Feywild" it'll be intriguing to see what they put in. Hopefully we'll see the 4e version of the Bladesinger (probably a paragon path) and options for elves and eladrin characters. When the Shadowfell book comes out, I think we'll get a better glimps at the book's format and it'll probably be close to that of the Feywild (if they do make one).

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 02 Jul 2010 17:55:37
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1944 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2016 :  19:54:25  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



Queen Amluiral's daughter Ilyrana was most-definately a 'throw back' (recessive gene?} to an earlier, more Fey-like Elf



What makes you say this, Markus?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

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chibi_grazzt
Acolyte

USA
10 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2016 :  01:13:11  Show Profile Send chibi_grazzt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We know the next slated product is titled "Labyrinth."
Is the Feywild labyrinthine?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0786966092/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2PC0UCJWXEGQ2&coliid=I2WHT3NL9Q09Z3

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1011 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  03:47:25  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Labyrinth will either be about Menzo and the Ring of Winter or Waterdeep and Undermountain.
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1357 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  04:52:57  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



Queen Amluiral's daughter Ilyrana was most-definately a 'throw back' (recessive gene?} to an earlier, more Fey-like Elf



What makes you say this, Markus?



Read Evermeet - she is described as different for several reasons - I would argue this is because she was some kind of Chosen of her god.
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