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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2010 : 19:30:14
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In a campaign I'm working on, the BBG is planning on storming the Hosttower of the Arcane Brotherhood, and since she is familiar with the Brotherhood, she knows that if that were to happen, Arkelm Greeth would destroy the tower and then regenerate at his phylactery before he'd let the tower be taken from him.
She plans to counter this by obtaining his phylactery and bringing it with her when she storms the tower, letting Greeth know that she has it, so that he will be less likely to blow the whole tower apart.
What, if anything, is known about Arkelm Greeth's phylactery? Is there any lore on it whatsoever? I don't mind making it up, but I was curious whether there was already something known about it.
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 03:38:44
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| Yeah! Wait for the army to get the revenge for crossing the line with a lich. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 06:14:00
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I would start by asking Nyphithys, the Erinyes who aided him in his effort to become a Lich.
Also, while it would not dissuade him from recklessly destroying the tower I do not believe it would guarantee his defeat if it was destroyed. If I recall correctly you must still destroy the Lich itself--in body--to defeat them, the phylactery simply allows them to return to unlife if defeated. Thus he could simply escape the tower as he did before and reorganize from safety.
There are also beings imprisoned in the Host Tower who are far more powerful than any mage of the Arcane Brotherhood. While I doubt Arkelm could sunder all the wards woven by Laeral of the Seven, you never know what unlikely things could happen in the midst of a spell siege... |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1233 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 16:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
While I doubt Arkelm could sunder all the wards woven by Laeral of the Seven, you never know what unlikely things could happen in the midst of a spell siege...
Wards? I never read anything about wards being imposed on him? Where can I find the source of this piece of lore? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 03:13:09
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This may not be canon lich-lore, but the way I've always played liches as a DM (and often had liches played against me as a player before and since; I got the idea from one of my DMs and have used it ever since, and in doing so passed it along to another couple of my DMs) is that destroying the lich's phylactery simply allows the lich (if he manages to escape and go to ground somewhere) to create a new one, wherever he might be. Sure, it's a time-consuming process, but any lich worth his embalming salt has a secret hold somewhere with a full necromantic laboratory in the event of such an occurrence (as suggested by capnvan), and should (if powerful enough) have a contingency in place to take him to such a place in the event of his phylactery's destruction. In this scenario, as a lich, if my opponents find my phylactery and immediately destroy it, it's less threatening to me than if they find it and take possession of it for an indefinite period of time.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 07:03:56
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| If the phylactery is captured, can it not be used to torment the lich like with voodoo doll with parts from your hair, blood and cloth? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 16:05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
If the phylactery is captured, can it not be used to torment the lich like with voodoo doll with parts from your hair, blood and cloth?
I would imagine so... Though the nature of most phylacteries is going to complicate that particular operation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 18:06:01
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| I always thought that if you knew the proper spells AND had a Liches phylactery, you could essentially force their service just as if you know a fiends true-name...but that was only speculation on my part after learning about Larloch. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 18:46:20
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Given what we know about Larloch, we know that there is a way to do that somehow... and it's logical to assume that it involves the lich's phylactery, given that it's just about the only thing a lich truly values. And given what I said above, if that's the way you as a DM choose to play it, then phylactery abduction in and of itself is certainly the most effective way of securing a lich's cooperation. And I like Wooly's thoughts on the "voodoo phylactery" concept... Frostrune may have had an unpleasant existence indeed in Halaster's hands before the latter's demise... assuming that any of it happens in your Realms...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 16:14:47
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| The premise was that Greeth wouldn't blow the tower apart if he knew it would kill him permanently. He would only do it if he knew he could regenerate wherever he had hid his phylactery. If he would destroy his phylactery in the process, he wouldn't be able to blow the tower up as well. |
Edited by - Calrond on 10 May 2010 16:17:57 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 08:26:51
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| Blow up the tower? Sounds like a last resort than actual plan of defense. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 11:58:12
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| He actually does that in one of Salvatore's books. And it was a last resort. |
Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 16:13:17
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| Yes, the BBG is planning on laying siege to Luskan and storming the Hosttower, so it would be a situation where Greeth would either have to leave the tower or blow it up as a last resort. It seems that he would sooner blow it up than let someone else have it, but if the BBG or the adventurers have his phylactery, and they're too close/inside the tower, then he won't be able to use that option without killing himself permanently. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 20:07:47
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I would assume Greeth has some bolt-holes somewhere else in the North.
He has been run off from Luskan and the Tower before.
What I am saying is he could conduct a 'tactical withdrawl' if things become 'difficult' for him. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 05:43:42
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| I say leave the lich alone, until he wants to go crazy and leave it to the priests of the Lord of Dead. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Fizilbert
Learned Scribe
USA
123 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 12:23:44
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| I dont know if you want to take any parts of Salvatore's book as canon, but in it, Greeth's tower within the Hosttower is actually a dimensional pocket. When he destroys the Hosttower, he is actually inside his own private tower, and it suffers no damage, since it never really was part of the Hosttower to begin with. |
Fiz
Level 10 Vice-president
World of Elethril |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 19:39:17
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Fair enough - but the question I come back to is this - how do the PCs get their hands on the phylactery in the first place? This is an epic-level threat. And getting his phylactery ought to be harder than getting control of the Hosttower.
The BBG is being aided by the Red Wizards, who are planning on moving into Luskan when the Brotherhood is destroyed and essentially replacing them. They're financing/supporting the BBG so that she will have all of the risk and the hardship while they reap the rewards. She needs them because she's a dread necromancer and her repertoire of spells is limited, and they're using her to do their dirty work in bringing down the Brotherhood. She plans on getting revenge on Greeth and then setting herself as the ruler of Luskan, but they plan to double-cross her, of course. It would not be impossible, I'm thinking, for a Zulkir, such as the Zulkir of Divination, to locate Greeth's phylactery, inform the BBG, and have her recruit the players (in a disguise they won't recognize) to retrieve it. That will also give them the XP they need to deal with the siege of Luskan when they return. How does that sound?
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 22:47:13
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Sounds pretty cool. Let us know how it works out. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2010 : 00:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
Fair enough - but the question I come back to is this - how do the PCs get their hands on the phylactery in the first place? This is an epic-level threat. And getting his phylactery ought to be harder than getting control of the Hosttower.
The BBG is being aided by the Red Wizards, who are planning on moving into Luskan when the Brotherhood is destroyed and essentially replacing them. They're financing/supporting the BBG so that she will have all of the risk and the hardship while they reap the rewards. She needs them because she's a dread necromancer and her repertoire of spells is limited, and they're using her to do their dirty work in bringing down the Brotherhood. She plans on getting revenge on Greeth and then setting herself as the ruler of Luskan, but they plan to double-cross her, of course. It would not be impossible, I'm thinking, for a Zulkir, such as the Zulkir of Divination, to locate Greeth's phylactery, inform the BBG, and have her recruit the players (in a disguise they won't recognize) to retrieve it. That will also give them the XP they need to deal with the siege of Luskan when they return. How does that sound?
I'm not as sure about the Zulkir of Divination part... I know that if I was a lich, one of my first acts would be to protect my phylactery against scrying. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2010 : 00:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertI'm not as sure about the Zulkir of Divination part... I know that if I was a lich, one of my first acts would be to protect my phylactery against scrying.
Agreed. At least the smart ones. Not to mention have plenty of other traps on it to protect it, immunty to all elemments, insanely high hardness, inside a cube of force wall, that likely surronded by diamonds, that on a different plane of existance, like plane of negative energy (all walls/phylactery protected by that element too), and the walls being surronded by some type of mega shadow negative energy golems with orders to team up and slay any fool who tries to come close.
Those would be good basic defenses. I had an epic lich that did that. But he also used the epic spell to split his phylactery into several parts, and spread them across the multiverse. All heavy protected. Personally fave was it being inside a Fire Iron Golem on the bottom of a ocean on plane of fire. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2010 : 01:59:42
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Based on the description of Greeth's transformation to a lich in Lords of Darkness (p.110), I think it might be a safe assumption that Greeth's phylactery is in one of the Nine Hells, since it was an erinyes that offered him lichdom in exchange for allowing the devils to assist in Greeth's conquest of the North. It sounds to me as though whichever Duke of Hell that the erinyes was working for might have possession of Greeth's phylactery, as part of their bargain, as insurance that Greeth would not double-cross the devils.
Or at least that such a scenario is plausible. |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2010 : 07:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by questing gm
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
While I doubt Arkelm could sunder all the wards woven by Laeral of the Seven, you never know what unlikely things could happen in the midst of a spell siege...
Wards? I never read anything about wards being imposed on him? Where can I find the source of this piece of lore?
Laeral never placed wards on Greeth, she placed wards upon the Tower itself. The Host Tower is far older than the Arcane Brotherhood, they are merely its most recent occupants.
It was created over 1,700 years ago, as a Netherese outpost for the Grand Cabal, who took refuge in a demiplane of the tower. Laeral of the Seven Sisters trapped the Netherese liches and demiliches within the demiplane shadow of the tower, and raised additional wards around the tower itself. Arklem Greeth sundered the outer wards centuries later to claim the tower, and the brotherhood have released some of the lesser members of the cabal, but the most powerful of them remain imprisoned.
This information can be found in Lost Empires of Faerun, in the Old North chapter (timeline & Old Illusk section). |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2010 : 07:15:08
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| Then... There were other reasons for him to blow it up? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2010 : 21:01:35
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| To kill everyone in it springs to mind Sill... |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2010 : 07:18:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Fizilbert
I dont know if you want to take any parts of Salvatore's book as canon, but in it, Greeth's tower within the Hosttower is actually a dimensional pocket. When he destroys the Hosttower, he is actually inside his own private tower, and it suffers no damage, since it never really was part of the Hosttower to begin with.
Also, Greeth turns an elf mage friend of his into an elf-lich and decides to leave his phylactery with her for safe-keeping.
Nothing says "I love you" like the repository of your soul.
EDIT:
quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
What, if anything, is known about Arkelm Greeth's phylactery? Is there any lore on it whatsoever? I don't mind making it up, but I was curious whether there was already something known about it.
WHAT (the phylactery):
- Glowing, sparkling gemstone (The Pirate King, Epilogue)
- Hidden inside hollow skull (TPK, Epi.)
WHERE:
- In Greeth's personal bedchamber, on a shelf (TPK, Epi.)
- Never actually in the Hosttower (TPK, P3:C20)
- Reached by extradimensional travel (TPK, P3:C20)
- A mobile chamber, which could be taken with him (TPK, P2:C16)
- After the destruction of the Hosttower (TPK, P2:C16), chamber is now located under the sewer system of Illusk (TPK, P3:C20)
- In extradimensional room anchored in the sewers (TPK, P4:C28)
- [Apparently the extradimensional portal to the chamber had originally been "anchored" in the Hosttower's central spire]
Kimmuriel actually manages to use his psionic abilities to locate and enter Greeth's extradimensional chamber in its new location, despite the lich's wards and glyphs, on several occasions (TPK, P4:C28). These were friendly meetings, though.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
I guess it must be an obvious question, but it has to be asked - if you were to gain possession of a lich's phylactery, why wouldn't you just immediately destroy it? What's the benefit of holding on to it?
Per RAS's novels, the possessor of a phylactery can summon the spirit into a new reanimated body, or summon other similar spirits into other reanimated bodies, and control them. A humanoid phylactery can be used to summon/reanimate/control humanoids, a dragon phylactery can summon/reanimate/control dragons, etc.
quote:
On the other hand, if he knows that you have his phylactery, he has, essentially, no choice but to dedicate all of his time, energy, and power into getting it back.
When Jarlaxle acquires the phylactery of the dracolich Urshula, the dragon's spirit seems to fear what Jar might do with it. There does not seem to be any indication that Urshula could harm Jar, there.
I am unaware if Greeth's disembodied spirit within the phylactery gem can do harm to one acquiring the gem, either.
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 21 May 2010 05:15:54 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 10:05:04
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
On the other hand, if he knows that you have his phylactery, he has, essentially, no choice but to dedicate all of his time, energy, and power into getting it back.
When Jarlaxle acquires the phylactery of the dracolich Urshula, the dragon's spirit seems to fear what Jar might do with it. There does not seem to be any indication that Urshula could harm Jar, there.
I am unaware if Greeth's disembodied spirit within the phylactery gem can do harm to one acquiring the gem, either.
He cannot, if he lost body at that time, but if he not... |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Arkelm Greeth's phylactery
