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Riverwind
Learned Scribe

133 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  06:14:28  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I really enjoyed the thread on Waterdeep's Army, so now I want to take on the City's Navy:

So, according to the books, there's 2,000 memebrs of the Navy, and here we'll find a force that needs expansion. (Piergeiron is going to get this place destroyed!!!)

The Navy has 16 Rakers, 24 Strikers, and 15 transports (War Naos?) and is tasked with manning the harbour walls and forts.

The Rakers Fleet: 16 ships with 36 crew on each, so that's 576 sailors/marines.

The Strikers Fleet: 24 ships with 44 crew on each, so that's 1056 sailors/marines.

The War Nao Fleet (transports:) 15 ships with 40 crew on each, so that's 600 sailors/marines, not to mention the troop carrying levels of 200 each would bring the level up to 3000.

So just to man the ships, Waterdeep needs 2232 sailors/marines. So, I'm guessing when ships are in dock, those troops man the harbour forts and walls (no rest.)

So right now, the Navy is understaffed. No wonder Waterdeep was attacked from the sea!!! Waterdeep needs a stronger Navy.

BTW, I love the map of Waterdeep, it's a work of art. But where are the dry docks?

Edited by - Riverwind on 19 Apr 2010 06:16:00

Kentinal
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Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  07:03:10  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey I am still working on your other thread. *wink*
I can offer a few answers to the questions you pose.

The crew number is the maximum, any ship can be crewed by less sometimes as few as 50 percent.

The (transports) would be in dock if not transporting troops, the crew for a ship in dock tends to be 3 to 6 (it is not going any place).

Marines are not part of any crew, they are cargo until they prefect walking on water. *Grin*

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Riverwind
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Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  07:24:55  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If they're crewing the ships at 50%, I hope they don't run into any pirates looking for a fight.

I should let you know where I'm coming from. I have not played D&D for years, but recently I reconnected with my old pals. We met for some beers and some dinner, and we started to talk about our days in Waterdeep and the Realms. After a few beers (and some shots) we started talking about the Realms like it was the "real world." Back when we played (we were teens back then,) good was good, and evil was evil. We talked about how the real world wasn't like that, sometimes good people don't see eye to eye. Sometimes people just don't see the bigger picture. Anyway, I became very critical of how I was as a DM back then, it wasn't real.
So anyway, in the last week, I dusted off all my FR stuff and started reading it. I'm having a blast. So I guess I'm just trying to look at this stuff with a different view. I do love this stuff. I remember when I bought (well it was bought for me) the old grey box. I looked over those maps for hours. I read Dalkwalker in one night.
So anyway, back to the Navy. Piergeiron needs to stop being so cheap, and spend some money

Edited by - Riverwind on 19 Apr 2010 07:25:17
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Brimstone
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Don't forget Privateers, like Captain D and the Sea Sprite from the Drizzt novels.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Kentinal
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Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  07:45:19  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if all ships are deployed the actual percentage is about 89.61%. As I indicated before the troop transports would not be fully crewed if at all, unless troops are being sent someplace.

Now if there should be more defending and/or attack ships, maybe it depends on whom was likely to attack. Raise taxes and make a larger fleet.

IAE that 2000 tends to be the average for a certain point/period in time. It should not be treated as an absolute that never increases or decreases. The same comment I intended to make concerning your concern about the number of Guard.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Riverwind
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133 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  08:15:48  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brimestone
"Don't forget Privateers, like Captain D and the Sea Sprite from the Drizzt novels."

See again, we're depending on outsiders to do what the city should be doing. It does say that it times of war, Waterdeep will "press gang" merchant sailors into service. I'm sure if there's rumors of war on the seas, the mechant shippers try to get out of town before they're drafted.

Kentinal,
I guess we need to figure out what are the threats on the seas before we can say if the Navy is large enough. Pirates, Luskan, and sea monsters I guess would be the biggest threats as would be hostile Sea Kingdoms. Also, we should remember about New Waterdeep. Does the Navy keep ships over there? Also (should be in our Army thread,) does Waterdeep keep a Guard force in New Waterdeep?
And unlike a land campaign, where somoene could run back and sound the alarm, on the high seas, if a ship went missing nobody would know where to look. So keeping a strong patrol force would seem ideal, with multiple ships in formation and someway to comminicate with Waterdeep.

Edited by - Riverwind on 19 Apr 2010 08:16:52
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Brimstone
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Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  08:49:32  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Captain D and the Sea Sprite were from Waterdeep.

Privateers don't always have to fly certain flags. That would help them gather intelligence for the city.

They make great wild cards.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe

133 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  09:01:17  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Captain D and the Sea Sprite were from Waterdeep.

Privateers don't always have to fly certain flags. That would help them gather intelligence for the city.

They make great wild cards.



Well, just because a privateer is from a certain city doesn't mean they want to get involved in her wars. I'm sure many of the captains along the Sword Coast are just trying earn an honest gold piece and don't want to get involved in war and politics. Heck if I owned a ship in Waterdeep and was making some money, I wouldn't want to lose my ship in some war. BTW, if a ship does get drafted and is lost, does Waterdeep pay the owner? I'm guessing the answer is yes.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5041 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  16:17:58  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm. I'm not sure what maps you're using, Riverwind, but Ed's originals have several dry docks clearly drawn in Dock Ward, not to mention Arnagus the Shipwright. Remember, this is a northern city that gets snow and ice in winter, and onshore fogs and rain in other seasons; sheds cover most of the drydock area. Modern real-world ships grew too large to economically shelter, but ships in the Realms haven't. Yet.
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5041 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  16:23:41  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and one more thing: the harbor forts are unmanned except in times of war. The City Guard's griffon riders patrols during daylit hours, and Watchful Order magists in the duty posts "watch" by night, with the merfolk policing the harbor and calling on Mirt (via his large force of hired street urchins, which we Knights dubbed the "Dock Street Irregulars" though Mirt just calls them his "Eyes") to alert land forces when arrests ashore need to be made.
The problem with the published Realms products is that Ed's pages and pages of original lore inevitably got edited down/left out. Ask the man himself if you want the details that really "make it work."
BTW, Waterdeep by and large doesn't need to defend itself against more than scattered smugglers and pirates; it's too valuable to EVERYONE as a "neutral ground" trading port. No one wants it conquered, because it's too useful to them just as it is. That's Ed's 1986 explanation to the TSR design staff, and it still stands...
love,
THO
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Thauramarth
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  17:41:49  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

I really enjoyed the thread on Waterdeep's Army, so now I want to take on the City's Navy:

So, according to the books, there's 2,000 memebrs of the Navy, and here we'll find a force that needs expansion. (Piergeiron is going to get this place destroyed!!!)

The Navy has 16 Rakers, 24 Strikers, and 15 transports (War Naos?) and is tasked with manning the harbour walls and forts.

The Rakers Fleet: 16 ships with 36 crew on each, so that's 576 sailors/marines.

The Strikers Fleet: 24 ships with 44 crew on each, so that's 1056 sailors/marines.

The War Nao Fleet (transports:) 15 ships with 40 crew on each, so that's 600 sailors/marines, not to mention the troop carrying levels of 200 each would bring the level up to 3000.

So just to man the ships, Waterdeep needs 2232 sailors/marines. So, I'm guessing when ships are in dock, those troops man the harbour forts and walls (no rest.)

So right now, the Navy is understaffed. No wonder Waterdeep was attacked from the sea!!! Waterdeep needs a stronger Navy.



I am not going to reiterate the economic and political issues already mentioned in your other thread . Still, the navy is something else altogether... I would say it is plenty strong! Probably the single strongest fleet along the entire northern Sword Coast, which is all it needs to be, really.

Off the top of my head, the only potentially bigger fleet in the area that I am aware of would be the collective fleets of the Northmen kings of the Moonshaes (who mustered around four hundred during the Darkwalker War, if memory serves me right).

Plus, it's a defensive fleet, rather than an expeditionary one. Its primary role is defending the harbour, and catching the occasional pirate. Plus, we should not forget that ships are not the only means at Waterdeep's disposal to patrol the seaways. A flying mage with a couple of fireball spells can probably be very helpful in dealing with part of an attacking or blockading fleet. although that might raise ethical questions, of course .

Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/.
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Riverwind
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133 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  22:37:35  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
As someone else pointed out, the transports are generally in not in use - they're for transporting troops in times of war. In peacetime, they'd be largely drydocked or otherwise laid up to prevent wear and tear.

The same is also true, most likely, for a lot of the fighting navy - a considerable portion will be laid up or in port, which is to say, not out on active patrol.

The modern US Navy, which is one of the most active in history, typically deploys less than 1/3 of its strength at any one time. Another 1/3 is undergoing serious maintenance, much of which would require dry-docking. And the final third is either in port, or preparing itself for deployment, which typically means a number of short jaunts, around their port, but no serious deployments. A classic example of this would be the US naval response to the Haiti earthquake - on paper, we have many more ships sitting on the Eastern Seaboard than responded to the earthquake. But a lot of their crews were on extended leave or in training at other bases, and a lot of those ships were undergoing significant maintenance.

So assume that a certain portion of those ships are not available, period - they're in drydock getting all sorts of maintenance - the pitch between timbers needs to be replaced, cracked timbers need replacing, the masts and oars may need work. Salt, water, and wood do not mix well.

But at the same time, a surge is certainly possible. Depending on what's needed, both rakers and strikers can operate with far fewer and far more crew than the stated numbers. To fight off a determined pirate attack inshore? 50-100% more crew can be carried, and the vast majority of them require little to no training. They're not there to fight the ship - they're there to repel boarders and board other ships. If you're not going any significant distance, you don't need to carry as many stores, and crew comfort can be kept to a minimum.

In other words, Waterdeep can maintain a maritime patrol, and even mount fairly extensive expeditions. As I recall, it was their maritime power that allowed them to dictate peace between Ruathym and Luskan (?). But they don't feel the need to maintain a constant presence everywhere. We know there are pirate attacks off the Sword Coast. We also know that they don't pose as much a problem around Waterdeep.

Again, the laissez-faire attitude. After all, if they're not escorting your ships, there's no need for them to know what's in the hold.



Didn't Waterdeep just recently get attacked from the sea? Didn't any of the broadsheets ask, "What is the Navy doing?"
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dragonfriend
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Italy
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Posted - 19 Apr 2010 :  22:47:16  Show Profile  Visit dragonfriend's Homepage Send dragonfriend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm following your topic about Waterdeep Army Riverwind. i think you see Waterdeep as a military force but it's not. The city is an economic/cultural/magical power. It's part of the of Lord's alliance. many people have interest in Waterdeep as it is. Calimport and Amn, its real enemies in the sword coast, are too far to rise an army. If someone wants to "conquer" the big city he has to work in the shadow, not with an army.

About merc, both land and sea. Waterdeep has not only money, but connections in business all over the west and many captains and soldiers will find plenty of opportunities even afeter a war if they stay side by side with the Lords of the city.

Edited by - dragonfriend on 19 Apr 2010 22:50:55
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  00:42:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


Didn't Waterdeep just recently get attacked from the sea? Didn't any of the broadsheets ask, "What is the Navy doing?"



What are ships going to do against critters that come from underwater? The best navy in the world can't do a thing to undersea critters swimming 20 or more feet below them.

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The Sage
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  00:52:46  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


Didn't Waterdeep just recently get attacked from the sea? Didn't any of the broadsheets ask, "What is the Navy doing?"



What are ships going to do against critters that come from underwater? The best navy in the world can't do a thing to undersea critters swimming 20 or more feet below them.

Indeed. Waterdeep could only effectively "prepare" its surface defences for the attack.

So unless it had some capability to fight underwater... Waterdeep's navy were always going to be at something of a disadvantage during the battle.

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Edited by - The Sage on 20 Apr 2010 00:53:50
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Riverwind
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  02:17:52  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


Didn't Waterdeep just recently get attacked from the sea? Didn't any of the broadsheets ask, "What is the Navy doing?"



What are ships going to do against critters that come from underwater? The best navy in the world can't do a thing to undersea critters swimming 20 or more feet below them.



1. The Navy should have an intelligence arm, which in this case failed.

2. The Navy is in charge of the coastal forts and defence, which again failed.

Edited by - Riverwind on 20 Apr 2010 02:19:43
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Kentinal
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  04:41:38  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan


Alright, let me be the first to ask openly, although I have little doubt that there are other behind me who simply have given up on even bothering.
The lurkers support you?
I certainly have not given up with discussion with the poster.
quote:


Is this what you have to offer?



If you have read as close as I have, the poster has returned to FR with the Grey Box. The poster also indicated a desire to make it more believable.


"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  05:06:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


1. The Navy should have an intelligence arm, which in this case failed.




Okay, you do realize, don't you, that you're applying real-world, modern day military theory to a force that is neither real-world nor modern day?

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The Sage
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  05:09:39  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


Didn't Waterdeep just recently get attacked from the sea? Didn't any of the broadsheets ask, "What is the Navy doing?"



What are ships going to do against critters that come from underwater? The best navy in the world can't do a thing to undersea critters swimming 20 or more feet below them.



1. The Navy should have an intelligence arm, which in this case failed.

2. The Navy is in charge of the coastal forts and defence, which again failed.

Both of which, ultimately, amount to very little while the ocean-going threat is still beneath the waves. The best Waterdeep can do is prepare surface defences. Which they did.

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Riverwind
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  06:54:20  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind


Didn't Waterdeep just recently get attacked from the sea? Didn't any of the broadsheets ask, "What is the Navy doing?"



What are ships going to do against critters that come from underwater? The best navy in the world can't do a thing to undersea critters swimming 20 or more feet below them.



1. The Navy should have an intelligence arm, which in this case failed.

2. The Navy is in charge of the coastal forts and defence, which again failed.

Both of which, ultimately, amount to very little while the ocean-going threat is still beneath the waves. The best Waterdeep can do is prepare surface defences. Which they did.




Well, in a world where an undersea threat is a possibilty, you would prepare defences:

1. The harbour gates can be closed. (I think right now they're just chains, but they should have some type of netting or something attached to them.
2. You could create/build underwater ridges, with openings to allow shipping to pass, but it would also force the enemy into channels that could be defended by the merfolk. Two ridges each running perpendicular from the two harbour openings would force the enemy to channel in.
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Thauramarth
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  07:42:41  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

Well, in a world where an undersea threat is a possibilty, you would prepare defences:

1. The harbour gates can be closed. (I think right now they're just chains, but they should have some type of netting or something attached to them.
2. You could create/build underwater ridges, with openings to allow shipping to pass, but it would also force the enemy into channels that could be defended by the merfolk. Two ridges each running perpendicular from the two harbour openings would force the enemy to channel in.



Good ideas, actually (and have been used in fantasy before, see the maze protecting the entrance to Imrryr in Melniboné), and probably not too expensive. Still, probably at one point, someone thought that the chances of such an underwater attack were too slim to justify the expense. Or that it would make Waterdeep look too "military".

Still, no form of defense would be perfect against all attacks. Because if Waterdeep's defences were perfect, there would be little to do for the poor adventurers, right?

Club Secretary of the Dragons on the Hill RPG Club of London, UK: http://dragonsonthehill.co.uk/.
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Riverwind
Learned Scribe

133 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2010 :  08:27:28  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind

Well, in a world where an undersea threat is a possibilty, you would prepare defences:

1. The harbour gates can be closed. (I think right now they're just chains, but they should have some type of netting or something attached to them.
2. You could create/build underwater ridges, with openings to allow shipping to pass, but it would also force the enemy into channels that could be defended by the merfolk. Two ridges each running perpendicular from the two harbour openings would force the enemy to channel in.



Good ideas, actually (and have been used in fantasy before, see the maze protecting the entrance to Imrryr in Melniboné), and probably not too expensive. Still, probably at one point, someone thought that the chances of such an underwater attack were too slim to justify the expense. Or that it would make Waterdeep look too "military".

Still, no form of defense would be perfect against all attacks. Because if Waterdeep's defences were perfect, there would be little to do for the poor adventurers, right?



Thanks Hey maybe Waterdeep will build it, they can call it Riverwind's Wall
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Riverwind
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Posted - 21 Apr 2010 :  21:55:02  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think there was a sourcebook back in the day called, "Under the Sea." I think it was in the 2nd edition, does anyone have it? It might have some answers or ideas to underwater defences.

Edited by - Riverwind on 21 Apr 2010 21:57:13
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Riverwind
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Posted - 21 Apr 2010 :  22:10:04  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just looked it up, the book was "Of Ships and the Sea."
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Hoondatha
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Posted - 21 Apr 2010 :  22:36:41  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You might also look at the 2e book Sea of Fallen Stars, which details, among other things, the mighty Sharksbane Wall. Think the Wall of China, only underwater. It completely blocks the straight between the general Sea of Fallen Stars and the Alamber, keeping the sahuagin in. But there isn't a lot of mention made of war engines; subsea dynamics would render most of those used on the surface useless. The wall's primary defensive value is the fact it just plain blocks the way, and funnels any would-be attackers to the heavily-defended garrisons along the top.

Underwater, siege engines most likely go by the name "wizard." Probably goes a long way to explaining why the sea elves ruled Seros unchallenged for something like ten thousand years.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Riverwind
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133 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2010 :  04:23:38  Show Profile  Visit Riverwind's Homepage Send Riverwind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

You might also look at the 2e book Sea of Fallen Stars, which details, among other things, the mighty Sharksbane Wall. Think the Wall of China, only underwater. It completely blocks the straight between the general Sea of Fallen Stars and the Alamber, keeping the sahuagin in. But there isn't a lot of mention made of war engines; subsea dynamics would render most of those used on the surface useless. The wall's primary defensive value is the fact it just plain blocks the way, and funnels any would-be attackers to the heavily-defended garrisons along the top.

Underwater, siege engines most likely go by the name "wizard." Probably goes a long way to explaining why the sea elves ruled Seros unchallenged for something like ten thousand years.



Hey, thanks. I have that, but forgot I had it. Just looked through real quick, and didn't see anything on the sharksbane wall, but the defences of Immurk's Hold:

Breakrocks: artificial reefs set in the harbour at strategic points just below the waterline...

This was what I was trying to get at with Waterdeeps defences. Having two sets of breakrocks running perpendicular from the two harbour openings forcing an underwater enemy into small channels where they can be attacked.

BTW, anyone see the size of Sembia's Navy? Over 90 ships with 15,000 active members of the Navy. What's the size of Sembia's land forces?
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