Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 The Lords Alliance
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  10:25:37  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Its not exactly a secret that I am a bit on the reactionary side where the Realms are concerned, but there is one element(OK, so there are many, but we are talking about this single one right now so bare with me here) that has been in the Realms since the early days that I never cared for and that is The Lords Alliance.

Except for making the western Realms more Black and White I cant see a single use for this group when gaming. Without them there could be an endless amount of intercity intrigue and small-scale wars between petty nobles that would make the threat of groups like the Zentharim even greater.

To be honest I cant even remmember an example of an official product (except the campaign settings of course)making use of the Alliance.

Has anyone out there ever used the system in any way or found any practical use for it as a plot element?

Edited by - Jorkens on 31 Mar 2010 17:54:12

Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
565 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  10:48:35  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've used it as a forum for political intrigue a couple of times, without it impeding inter city spy games and such. e.g., alliance members send their representatives to whatever city is host that year and engage in Dune style political/social struggles, while their field agents are in each other's cities spying and sabotaging, etc.

I always thought the alliance was a basic trade and non-aggression treaty anyway, so even in a politics heavy game keeping it as a minor issue would do it justice.

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl

2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html
Go to Top of Page

Amarel Derakanor
Seeker

97 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  15:08:25  Show Profile Send Amarel Derakanor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my Realms, I made them into being the 'pawns' of Waterdeep. An alliance, true. With profitable trade agreements, non-aggression and mutual-defence pacts among themselves, true. All very nice, on the paper, perhaps, but settlements of northern Faerūn were bullied (by threat of trade embargoes, and sometimes outright force) into joining it, mostly under the terms written the more powerful cities; Waterdeep in particular. Sort of "you're either with us, or against us". They also made use of alot of undercover people, who were used for information-gathering, coercion and assassination of undesired individuals. And by joining most of the larger cities and settlements under one banner (on occasion, when it were in the interest of the major Lords), the Alliance could easily do whatever they pleased with minor tribes and other 'free' communities. And by minor tribes, I mean not only the ones consisting of humans, but also those consisting of orcs, hobgoblins, and such, who may have dwelt there for millenia before the arrival of 'civilisation'.
Obviously, being a close neighbour of the Lord's Alliance wouldn't be especially enviable, since they would probably make you pay tribute in one way or another, and refusing to pay up, or attacking one of its cities (be it in retaliation or otherwise) wouldn't be advisable either (for a small tribe), since it would likely result in many other cities coming to its aid, in one way or another.
...So I guess I did find a use for it!
Go to Top of Page

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  17:53:51  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Amarel_Derakanor

In my Realms, I made them into being the 'pawns' of Waterdeep. An alliance, true. With profitable trade agreements, non-aggression and mutual-defence pacts among themselves, true. All very nice, on the paper, perhaps, but settlements of northern Faerūn were bullied (by threat of trade embargoes, and sometimes outright force) into joining it, mostly under the terms written the more powerful cities; Waterdeep in particular. Sort of "you're either with us, or against us". They also made use of alot of undercover people, who were used for information-gathering, coercion and assassination of undesired individuals. And by joining most of the larger cities and settlements under one banner (on occasion, when it were in the interest of the major Lords), the Alliance could easily do whatever they pleased with minor tribes and other 'free' communities. And by minor tribes, I mean not only the ones consisting of humans, but also those consisting of orcs, hobgoblins, and such, who may have dwelt there for millenia before the arrival of 'civilisation'.
Obviously, being a close neighbour of the Lord's Alliance wouldn't be especially enviable, since they would probably make you pay tribute in one way or another, and refusing to pay up, or attacking one of its cities (be it in retaliation or otherwise) wouldn't be advisable either (for a small tribe), since it would likely result in many other cities coming to its aid, in one way or another.
...So I guess I did find a use for it!



This would also open the possibility of the Zenths exploiting this for what it was worth. It would be easy for them to work with tax-hating merchants and grumbling local nobles and leaders. Its a good idea, but it does change fundamentally the nature of the Alliance, far away from the one officially stated, making them a far more sinister participant in the political game.
Go to Top of Page

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  17:57:54  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic

I've used it as a forum for political intrigue a couple of times, without it impeding inter city spy games and such. e.g., alliance members send their representatives to whatever city is host that year and engage in Dune style political/social struggles, while their field agents are in each other's cities spying and sabotaging, etc.

I always thought the alliance was a basic trade and non-aggression treaty anyway, so even in a politics heavy game keeping it as a minor issue would do it justice.



Wouldn't they do this anyway? The conflicts and intrigues are those one would find without the Alliance being there at all. Merchants, nobles and ambassadors all intriguing. I agree with the way you run the political game, but it still makes me wonder at what the point of including the alliance at all would be.
Go to Top of Page

Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
565 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  18:48:34  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed, it would probably happen anyway, the alliance just provides a formal convention for it. Take the U.N. or the E.U. for example; none of the member states really NEED the U.N or whatever to work together and screw each other, but it provides a forum for their shenanigans. The Lords Alliance could be a stripped down and localised fantasy version of that.

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl

2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html
Go to Top of Page

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5056 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  21:03:50  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed. Jorkens, the Lords' Alliance IS the Realmsian counterpart of the UN, and often just as powerless or irrelevant "on the ground" as that real-life body can be. It meets seldom, is more of a deterrent to open lawlessness everywhere than anything else, and in Ed's campaign is largely a means for putting important envoys in danger as they travel (or undercover messengers carrying vital messages), that PCs can rescue or encounter and harm rather than aid.
It IS Waterdeep's way of extending its influence without creating an empire of conquered territories, it does exist largely to keep trade flowing and prevent the Zhents or anyone else from managing to arrange strangling monopolies . . . and if the Realms campaign you're in doesn't involve much metapolitics, it can exist mainly as a seldom-heard, never-seen name. Or little more than the reason to have important outlanders getting drunk at a particular noble-hosted revel in a mansion somewhere in Waterdeep.

love,
THO
Go to Top of Page

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2010 :  21:11:43  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Indeed. Jorkens, the Lords' Alliance IS the Realmsian counterpart of the UN, and often just as powerless or irrelevant "on the ground" as that real-life body can be. It meets seldom, is more of a deterrent to open lawlessness everywhere than anything else, and in Ed's campaign is largely a means for putting important envoys in danger as they travel (or undercover messengers carrying vital messages), that PCs can rescue or encounter and harm rather than aid.
It IS Waterdeep's way of extending its influence without creating an empire of conquered territories, it does exist largely to keep trade flowing and prevent the Zhents or anyone else from managing to arrange strangling monopolies . . . and if the Realms campaign you're in doesn't involve much metapolitics, it can exist mainly as a seldom-heard, never-seen name. Or little more than the reason to have important outlanders getting drunk at a particular noble-hosted revel in a mansion somewhere in Waterdeep.

love,
THO



Now the interesting question for me is this;how would the Alliance react to armed conflict between two members, say over a valley or such. Small scale feudal warfare or hanseatic-style trade-conflicts? Would the whole thing be seen as a matter between the two or would the ambassadors and diplomats move in to try to smooth things over?
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2010 :  00:12:58  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Lords' Alliance is an alliance of lords -- not really an organisation in its own right, and I doubt it has a centralised headquarters. "The agents of the Lords' Alliance are varied, and usually swear their loyalty first to one particular lord, then to the Lords' Alliance as a whole."

...

Additionally, we've this further info from the lovely Lady Hooded One:-

quote:
The Lords' Alliance is just that: an alliance of lords who generally share the same goals. They have spies and go-betweens/envoys who work for them (swearing personal allegiance to a particular lord), as information gatherers and sharers between the lords. Think of it as behind-the-scenes diplomacy, where they report a political event or outbreak of raiding or fighting to each other, and often decide on a united position to take regarding the event.
So, Marquant: no headquarters, no formal meetings, no badges and uniforms, and so on. The "structure" you're looking for just isn't there. This isn't the EU or the UN; it's more the Bildenberger Group or a "Red Phone" or "Hotline" network among various heads of state.
The public knows about the Alliance because of the peace its members work to maintain and the trade alliances and easy flows they foster (generally in the Sword Coast North and father south down the Sword Coast and east along the Heartlands trade routes).So, yes, they are the ultimate "behind the scenes" power group.
I hope this helps to explain the Alliance a bit better. How do I know all of this? Because we Knights (of Myth Drannor; my PC and other PCs) briefly found ourselves used as "go-betweens" to guard-and-carry items and documents from Lord to Lord, in Ed Greenwood's "home" Realms campaign (or as I like to think of it, THE [real, original] Forgotten Realms).
love,
THO

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
729 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2010 :  11:10:20  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I basically treat the Lords' Alliance as a forum where heads of state can meet, more like the G7/G8, or the Davos Summit (or the aforementioned Bildenberger Group) than formal organisations like the UN or the EU or similar organisations.

I see the Lords' Alliance as a very personal group of like-minded leaders (it would be quite possible for, say, the next leader of Scornubel to opt out, and his/her/its successor opting in again). I do not even see them as having an "staff" or a "secretariat" - no ambassadors (except such ambassadors as the cities would send to each other as part of normal diplomatic relations).

In case of conflict between members, I do not see the LA trying to enforce peace, although interested members (please note: interested, probably meaning lead by enlightened self-interest) might try and broker an agreement, but would not send in troops or try to put an end to the conflict by force, unless its own vital interests were at stake. If several members' interests are at stake, I'd think that the rapports created through membership of the LA would facilitate coordinated response, but I do not see the LA get together and issue a joint resolution, and neither sanction nor prohibit any measures taken by members (e.g., Waterdeep might declare an embargo on arms shipments to the conflicting parties, or restrict recruitment of mercenaris by either party, probably by issuing an edict to the local mercs that they'll never work in Waterdeep again, if they think about joining one side or the other).
Go to Top of Page

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2010 :  12:06:30  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan

quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens

Without them there could be an endless amount of intercity intrigue and small-scale wars between petty nobles that would make the threat of groups like the Zentharim even greater.



Well, of course, that's precisely why the alliance was formed, to oppose the expanding power of the Zhentarim.



Yes, and that is a logical reason, but (I am thinking from a gaming perspective here) I think its more interesting for the Zenths to join in on, and take advantage of, an already rotten game of politics and conflict. Especially if I use the Realms with players who have no prior knowledge of the Realms. This will also make it more difficult for players to figure out if it is part of a Zenthis plot, or part of the local power struggle. The Harpers would probably try to ease things down by diplomacy, given their interests in the area, but I usually run the Harpers as less militant and aggressive than some official sources.

One solution for me could be to have the alliance being, as Waterdeeps (maybe Piergeron's) brainchild, more or less inactive in the relationship between members where politics are concerned. With the other states more or less ignoring the alliance unless the Zenth's are proved to be a danger in a situation.
Go to Top of Page

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2010 :  12:13:44  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This discussion actually made me realize one thing and that is that my problem with The Lords Alliance is more with the name than with the structure. A loose system of diplomatic deals is logical and no problem, but to have it named is something else. I sometimes think the Realms went a bit overboard with the naming of every group and organisation.

This also made made me think of one thing I always missed in the Realms products and that is information on the relationship between the states where diplomacy was concerned. the Known World Gazetteers were great on this subject with the various ambassadors being used to show the intrigues between states. I still wished the Realms products had used more of the format from these products. This could of course just be a result of me having inserted half of the information from them into the Realms already. In many ways my Cormyr resembles Karameikos more than it does the official Realms version by now.
Go to Top of Page

Thauramarth
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
729 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2010 :  20:16:43  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
This also made made me think of one thing I always missed in the Realms products and that is information on the relationship between the states where diplomacy was concerned. the Known World Gazetteers were great on this subject with the various ambassadors being used to show the intrigues between states. I still wished the Realms products had used more of the format from these products. This could of course just be a result of me having inserted half of the information from them into the Realms already. In many ways my Cormyr resembles Karameikos more than it does the official Realms version by now.

Ah... I loved the Gazetteers, too. It's quite a good format, but I am not sure it would have worked as well for the Realms as it would have for Mystara. if you look at the political map of the Realms, and compare it with the Known World (or Greyhawk, for that matter) - there's a lot more territory that's not under any sovereign (almost all of the North, the Western Heartlands, and I'd also include the Dalelands), whereas almost every square inch of Oerth or of the Known World was part of some state or the other.

Go to Top of Page

Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2010 :  09:14:35  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

Ah... I loved the Gazetteers, too. It's quite a good format, but I am not sure it would have worked as well for the Realms as it would have for Mystara. if you look at the political map of the Realms, and compare it with the Known World (or Greyhawk, for that matter) - there's a lot more territory that's not under any sovereign (almost all of the North, the Western Heartlands, and I'd also include the Dalelands), whereas almost every square inch of Oerth or of the Known World was part of some state or the other.




I agree, but then again I don't think these areas should be that detailed at all. The Inner Sea areas is more or less settled around the Coasts though, so here it could work. And a couple of the Gazetteers detailed areas that were not that unified in the first place. The Dalelands could be made along the lines of the Elfland gazetteer (which influenced my view of the Elven Court), Karameikos and Cormyr, City states of the Western Heartlands(or the Dragon Coast or even Amn) as Darokin, Rockhome for the Northern Dwarves (I think its on suggested reading in the Dwarves Deep too). Five Shires I always used for the halflings near Darkhold, with the Zenths substituting for The Black Eagle. Glantri has elements fitting both Thay and my view of Halruaa, Ylarum could easily be used as a template for one of the major deserts, Dawn of The Emperors (although this is really another format) could be used for Chondath, Turmish and the Old Empires areas, Minrothad could make a passable Sembia, the Ethengar lands for the Hordelands and the Northern Reaches for the Moonsea or Northern semi-barbarians.

I don't mean that these could easily substitute the Realmsian areas of course, but the format could be a good match, as there are likenesses between them. But when I think about it, my starting comment wasn't all that accurate as the Gazetteers where rather different from each other.
Go to Top of Page

bitter thorn
Learned Scribe

USA
184 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2010 :  03:37:43  Show Profile  Visit bitter thorn's Homepage Send bitter thorn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've used the LA in Games set in Dagger Dale and the Western Heartlands. It's nice to have a change of pace from the Moon Stars, Harpers, and high knights etc.

"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"

Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000