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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 16:05:13
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Ok I'm gonna blurt it right out. Cyric wasn't really allied with Shar to kill Mystra. Cyric used Shar to get to the Netherese. By doing so will come the resurrection of Karsus who still holds the power of Mystryl. With his resurection he will re-form the Weave and free Cyric from his prison. Together, they will then slay Shar and each take part of her portfolio. Then Karsus will be the deity of the new Netherese while Cyric reigns supreme (in his own mind) over the rest of Faerun.
This is how it will happen.
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2010 : 23:42:27
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| My theory involves Colonel Mustard and the candlestick, but you could be right. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 00:29:01
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Well, first, Shar is the one with the Karsestone, which was his heart. I'd imagine that any resurrection of Karsus would need that.
But a bigger point is that Karsus does not hold the power of Mystryl. When she resurrected herself, Karsus was cut off from her power, which then went into a mortal woman who became Mystra 1.0. And it's from Ed that we know that Mystra 1.0 was a mortal who received Mystryl's power. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 02:53:59
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| Well, I don't think the Karsustone would be needed to rez the fella; but at most you would get a powerful wizard and not a god in my own thoughts. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 05:34:22
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Dalor, I both agree and disagree with you. Unless you're using True Resurrection (I'm going by 3.x rules here, mostly because I don't play 4E), you need at least part of his body, and the Karsestone is the most likely candidate. However, I think you're right on with your second point. My suspicion is that any pre-Spellplague attempt to resurrect Karsus would succeed only in restoring him to mortal life, since there already is a deity (Mystra) with that portfolio. Now, a canon post-Spellplague resurrection of Karsus would be far more interesting... Karsus died a god (the god of magic), and there is currently (Year of the Ageless One in this case) no divinity with that portfolio. I'm thinking it would also require some serious epic-level magic to accomplish his resurrection as a deity, but it should be possible.
Just my two cents.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 13:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, first, Shar is the one with the Karsestone, which was his heart. I'd imagine that any resurrection of Karsus would need that.
But a bigger point is that Karsus does not hold the power of Mystryl. When she resurrected herself, Karsus was cut off from her power, which then went into a mortal woman who became Mystra 1.0. And it's from Ed that we know that Mystra 1.0 was a mortal who received Mystryl's power.
Ah but WotC will retcon that by adding a secret that not ALL of Mystryl's power went into Mystra 1.0. A faint ammount was left in Karsus, just enough so that when he is resurected he is able to claim the portfolio of magic to himself. The Spellplague, having destroyed the weave, allows Karsus the opportunity to reform the Weave in his own image, thus giving him the time needed to be able to control it properly before putting it into effect in the realms. This will cause another period of confusion for students of the Art everywhere, as they must once again re-learn how to shape magic. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 13:56:17
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| Oh and Karsus finds a way to take the lost powers Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon, taking over their portfolios as well. Oh and Telamont Tanthul becomes his Exarch... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 19:13:49
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Actually, it kinda makes sense to have a megalomaniac god of arcane magic and wizards in a world whose metastructure (4E game mechanics) makes arcane magic no more powerful than anything else. I think...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2010 : 19:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Actually, it kinda makes sense to have a megalomaniac god of arcane magic and wizards in a world whose metastructure (4E game mechanics) makes arcane magic no more powerful than anything else. I think...
Arcane magic includes access to Rituals though. (yes I know you can get access to Rituals as long as you are trained in Arcana) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 00:26:17
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Now you're forgetting that WotC decided that having a deity of magic in the Realms was a problem.
Additionally, the official, in-game explanation for why Mystra 2.0 didn't have a successor is because Shar somehow prevented it.
Besides, if it was possible for Karsus to come back as a deity and reclaim the mantle he already proved incapable of holding, then the logical time for this would have been immediately after Mystra's death. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 00:40:13
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Re: Wooly: True enough. I agree 100% with your last statement, and nothing about the first two will ever make sense to either of us. Hence, the reason for Karsus not returning... it would have been logically sound, given all of the other events (which were logically unsound to begin with). 
Re: Richard Lee Byers: I think you're right about Colonel Mustard and the Candlestick, and I'll complete the theory by stating that the murder happened in the Library, and the lit candle falling from the Candlestick caused the entire Library to go up in flames. At least, that's my metaphor for the Spellplague.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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WarlockII
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 01:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, first, Shar is the one with the Karsestone, which was his heart. I'd imagine that any resurrection of Karsus would need that.
The canon version says "shar gives the karse stone to cyric to cloak him so he can sneak up on mystra". So cyric has the stone.
I think the theory has merit.
I like my own theory better. (of course since it's my own)
That mystra has either always been AO, or Mystra decided to battle with AO for supremecy. Hence the whole Abeir catastrofy, something that AO has power over. As blatently pointed out in 4E campaignsetting.
But back to your theory. It would seem stupid for any deity to not grab the portfolio of magic if given the chance. So maybe someone already did, and Karsus is a decent candidate. Died the god of magic. Last I checked you don't stop being a god just because you're a dead one. And if you come back you come back a god even if someone took your portfolio. ahem... BANE!!!. as an example.
Also explains why Netheril didn't get cluster****ed by the spellplague.
if this theory is true the secrecy also makes sense. Because after the spellplague, you would expect Karsus not to be all that popular. So to systain his goodhood you let some netheril dudes pray to him in secrecy. And if Cyric was his wingman I suspect the 1000 year imprisonment, will keep him hidden en secrecy. Then he could later in some book they might be writing now, make a nice big plot to stage an event for ressurecting karsus, oh lets say 100 years after so it doesn't look too suspicious. (Since noone knows he's been a living god since the spellplague started)
Not a bad theory.
why did Halruaa explode?, well they have this attitude towards epic magic, that rivals the Inquisitions attitude towards people with mental disorders. So best to boom them up fast. Because Karsus is a word for reckless epic magic as we all know. :P
"Claps" Excellent Theory I think I'll use it as a decoy 
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Edited by - WarlockII on 11 Mar 2010 01:34:45 |
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WarlockII
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 01:44:42
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hmmm
how about I mix my theory with yours.
Cyric tricks Shar, and goes to fetch the Karsestone for mystra, who then ressurrects Karsus and goes off to battle AO with the power of the weave. Karsus gets to chose were mystra punches a hole in the weave to syphon the energy and he chooses Halruaa.
Then Mystra goes on the try to become AO, and Karsus becomes the new god of magic and decides to lay low. Too many questions he doesn't want to answer. But he watches over the Netheril empire that's building.
So this theory explains:
Halruaa
Abier crashing with toril
Netheril being saved
And shar getting screwed over when she tries to merge the shadow weave with the weave. Realising it's not breaking it's draining.
And so poeticly the god of dark dark secrets holds the greatest dirtiest secret of all.
And cyric was a pawn
makes sense, I mean who ever heard of a god getting killed on her own plain. Have you even read faith and pantheons if you think that. a greater god is invinsible on her own plain. Cyric was just used, and I'm sure he told the other gods he didn't do it, but he is the prince of lies, they didn't buy it. Sad day for cyric, outplayed by Mystra.
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Edited by - WarlockII on 11 Mar 2010 01:47:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 03:48:24
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quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, first, Shar is the one with the Karsestone, which was his heart. I'd imagine that any resurrection of Karsus would need that.
The canon version says "shar gives the karse stone to cyric to cloak him so he can sneak up on mystra". So cyric has the stone.
Where is that stated? I know that I once posited that as an alternate explanation, but so far as I know, that is not canon.
quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
I think the theory has merit.
I like my own theory better. (of course since it's my own)
That mystra has either always been AO, or Mystra decided to battle with AO for supremecy. Hence the whole Abeir catastrofy, something that AO has power over. As blatently pointed out in 4E campaignsetting.
So if Mystra was Ao, that means that she kicked herself out of the heavens in the Avatar crisis, and then got killed trying to get back into a place she kicked herself out of.
Either there is no logic in the Realms, or Mystra is not Ao.
As for the idea of her battling Ao for supremacy... If he could simultaneously strip every single deity of their divinity and kick them out of the heavens, then how does any deity or group of deities even stand a chance against him? That's like an ant destroying an M-1 Abrams.
quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
But back to your theory. It would seem stupid for any deity to not grab the portfolio of magic if given the chance. So maybe someone already did, and Karsus is a decent candidate. Died the god of magic. Last I checked you don't stop being a god just because you're a dead one. And if you come back you come back a god even if someone took your portfolio. ahem... BANE!!!. as an example.
Canon states that there is no deity of magic. This is not a theory.
quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
Also explains why Netheril didn't get cluster****ed by the spellplague.
And that's why most of the North and the Dales and Cormyr were also spared? That's why the heirs of Netheril were blown up?
quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
if this theory is true the secrecy also makes sense. Because after the spellplague, you would expect Karsus not to be all that popular. So to systain his goodhood you let some netheril dudes pray to him in secrecy. And if Cyric was his wingman I suspect the 1000 year imprisonment, will keep him hidden en secrecy. Then he could later in some book they might be writing now, make a nice big plot to stage an event for ressurecting karsus, oh lets say 100 years after so it doesn't look too suspicious. (Since noone knows he's been a living god since the spellplague started)
After the Spellplague, I'd expect Karsus to be unknown. The Shades worshipped Shar. They and a few others would be all that might know of Karsus -- and that's not worship.
And why would Cyric, the most opportunistic, backstabbing deity in the Realms, give power to someone else instead of seizing it for himself?
quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
Not a bad theory.
So long as you ignore canon and logic, it's a great theory.
quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
why did Halruaa explode?, well they have this attitude towards epic magic, that rivals the Inquisitions attitude towards people with mental disorders. So best to boom them up fast. Because Karsus is a word for reckless epic magic as we all know. :P
Uh... Wha? Karsus would blow up the heirs of Netheril why? Are you saying they were a threat to him? A deity of magic should do everything in his or her power to protect a nation of magic-users, not blow them up for some bizarre reason.
quote:
Originally posted by WarlockII
"Claps" Excellent Theory I think I'll use it as a decoy
Look, it's clear you like this idea, but canon lore simply does not support it. I'm all for bending things a bit to get a nifty -- and still logical -- outcome, but this idea goes far beyond bending things a bit.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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WarlockII
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 10:01:05
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You can't appriciate the theory, if you believe everything ever said.
Yes it's true that it's canon that people think a lot of those things, but not nessessarily the truth.
The karse stone goes to cyric it's called "the cloak" in the terreseers prophecy.
AO destroyed the tablets after pretending they didn't matter, so they mattered.
Mystra may well have staged her own death to make sure noone figured out the truth, as we all know she had made plans so she didn't really die.
I prefer though the part were mystra battles AO.
Here it makes decent sense if cyric is her pawn that she uses cyric to kill helm for revenge. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 12:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now you're forgetting that WotC decided that having a deity of magic in the Realms was a problem.
They had to give us a reason for doing it so that we don't catch onto their little plan on re-ascending Karsus. New lore supercedes old lore, so once this new lore becomes public, whatever they claim right now becomes null and void.
It's all one big elaborate Conspiracy by Cyric and Karsus - which is a big elaborate Conspiracy by WotC.
You never know Even if it isn't their plan at the moment, it will be eventually  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 17:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I just think it's funny Wooly got into a fight about logic with conspiracy theorists.
I have to admit that this made me grin too! |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 18:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
My theory involves Colonel Mustard and the candlestick, but you could be right.
That's what the Grim Reaper said in Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey......he was wrong....it was Professor Plum
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Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2010 : 20:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I just think it's funny Wooly got into a fight about logic with conspiracy theorists.
Its funnier that he tried to use logic to do it |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 01:14:10
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I would just like to know the name of that Mortal Woman which Mystryl's power flowed into! Does anyone have some info for me???
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 01:25:50
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Do you mean Midnight? IIRC Midnight's name is Ariel Manx.
Or have I missed something.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 03:55:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Do you mean Midnight? IIRC Midnight's name is Ariel Manx.
Or have I missed something.
No, he's referring to the mortal woman who became Mystra 1.0. We have a tidbit on her from Ed:
quote:
However, the circumstances of her passing prevented other deities from snaring her divine power, and largely prevented its dispersal, and it “fell like a dying star” to earth (or so the priests of Mystra say) to at random strike and “go into” a mindless, drooling mortal woman and infuse her with Mystryl’s divinity, so that she became Mystra. (Of course, clergy of Mystra speak of the woman being present and selected as “divine fate” and not random at all, but this is one of the Holy Mysteries of the Lady of Mysteries that only high-ranking clergy are allowed to discuss in detail; lay worshippers and non-believers won’t get much more out of a priest of Mystra than this: “When Mystryl made the ultimate and most holy sacrifice that defended Toril itself, that which was best of her fell to earth, and struck a mortal woman, and went into her, and Mystryl was reborn as Mystra, as she was fated to do, that we may all have magic that serves us and not the howling chaos of wild magic spellstorms.”
We don’t know anything about the mortal woman who became Mystra other than these things: she was young, she was “mindless” (for reasons unknown; it may have been a birth defect or a later affliction), she was a poor rural unknown somewhere in the northern, western Heartlands being cared for by kin, and she was changed in looks and stature by Mystryl’s “going in” to her. I’d say more, but NDAs forbid.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 05:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Do you mean Midnight? IIRC Midnight's name is Ariel Manx.
Or have I missed something.
No, he's referring to the mortal woman who became Mystra 1.0. We have a tidbit on her from Ed:
quote:
However, the circumstances of her passing prevented other deities from snaring her divine power, and largely prevented its dispersal, and it “fell like a dying star” to earth (or so the priests of Mystra say) to at random strike and “go into” a mindless, drooling mortal woman and infuse her with Mystryl’s divinity, so that she became Mystra. (Of course, clergy of Mystra speak of the woman being present and selected as “divine fate” and not random at all, but this is one of the Holy Mysteries of the Lady of Mysteries that only high-ranking clergy are allowed to discuss in detail; lay worshippers and non-believers won’t get much more out of a priest of Mystra than this: “When Mystryl made the ultimate and most holy sacrifice that defended Toril itself, that which was best of her fell to earth, and struck a mortal woman, and went into her, and Mystryl was reborn as Mystra, as she was fated to do, that we may all have magic that serves us and not the howling chaos of wild magic spellstorms.”
We don’t know anything about the mortal woman who became Mystra other than these things: she was young, she was “mindless” (for reasons unknown; it may have been a birth defect or a later affliction), she was a poor rural unknown somewhere in the northern, western Heartlands being cared for by kin, and she was changed in looks and stature by Mystryl’s “going in” to her. I’d say more, but NDAs forbid.
There's a few other bits as well, scattered in the 2006 "So Saith Ed" archive. See the link in my sig for the archive. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2010 : 14:22:57
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Oh...ok.
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 15:43:02
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| I can see Karsus laughing away as he also gains possesion of the TRUE Tablets of Fate and usurps Ao as the overgod... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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WarlockII
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2010 : 20:52:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now you're forgetting that WotC decided that having a deity of magic in the Realms was a problem.
They had to give us a reason for doing it so that we don't catch onto their little plan on re-ascending Karsus. New lore supercedes old lore, so once this new lore becomes public, whatever they claim right now becomes null and void.
It's all one big elaborate Conspiracy by Cyric and Karsus - which is a big elaborate Conspiracy by WotC.
You never know Even if it isn't their plan at the moment, it will be eventually
Found this :P
After the Spellplague, Corellon, Selûne, and Sseth connected themselves to the governance of the arcane, splitting the domain between themselves. None of the three possess the same degree of control over magic that Mystryl, Mystra, or Midnight did, but their influence is far from neglible and each has a unique approach that defines, to an extent, their worshipers' connection to the arcane. Corellon, who supports the efforts of Elven high mages, favors the use of arcane magic in the creation of beautiful art and his eladrin followers approach magic through an almost aesthetic frame of mind. Conversely, Selûne and her worshipers prefer magic that changes with the ebb and flow of the world, with many of their spells or prayers overlapping to some degree with the enchantment school or moon domain. Sseth, the sole evil god of the three, is a secretive deity who fosters illusion, secrecy, and darkness. Worshipers of Sseth, along with the deity himself, often fuel their magic with the pain and suffering of others, drawing on others' life force. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 13:31:38
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| Did you find it floating in your brain like I found my theory or did you find yours elsewhere?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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WarlockII
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 19:47:50
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| found it on wiki |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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The Cyric/Shar Mystra Murder Conspiracy
