| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 06:35:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The dragon is still going to be a lot more maneuverable than the airship. And a dragon doesn't just have its breath weapon -- most dragons have spells of their own. And even if the airship stands up to the breath weapon, one good swipe of the dragon's claws and that ship is making one last journey -- a fast one straight down. Even if you cover the thing with weapon emplacements, that dragon only has to get close once -- and considering how tough dragons are, that wouldn't be a challenge. And of course you could load the ship with spellslingers -- but that's not an efficient use of magical resources, and that same amount of magical resources could be devoted towards making a proper skyship that would be a lot harder to bring down.
As for engines to make the airship go fast... Even if you could somehow make a steam engine that efficient, the weight would be prohibitive. Even using heat metal or something, you've still got the weight of the engine itself, plus the weight of all the water in it... Those engines would likely weigh so much that weapons and/or a large enough crew to defend the ship would not be possible. A balloon big enough to lift one of those engines would be too big to adequately defend, even from a flock of bored sparrows.
For sure the dirigible isn't as maneuverable, it just needs to outrun said dragon. Thankfully there aren't many of the great wyrms out & about. The real threats here become white, brass, and gold dragons. The latter two are unlikely threats unless the dirigible is stealing from them. The former, being a territorial evil dragon, would likely want to eat it.
Let's think about a tactical "double movement" speed of 600 feet per round. Well outside of charging range, as well as well outside of breath weapon.
Leaving those thoughts for a moment, and hear me out...
Flying fortresses, using this type of technology (and an obscene amount of hot air/engine) with the capability of holding flights of Griffons, Hippogriffs, and other nasty flying monsters in addition to spellslingers and such. No, this isn't about that (although I can see this in an age of reason true Steampunk game, not in my 1370's/1380's Faerun).
What I'm thinking as a feasable use for this type of technology is short range travel. Nothing grandiose, and in a well documented shipping/travel lane. Thus the reason I think Lantan would have them, but wouldn't use them for military purposes (yet). If they ever find a tear-resistant material that's light enough for this (think lightweight Kevlar hot air balloons), they would likely expand to more... dangerous routes.
Another part to this that you have to think about, is the design of the balloon itself. Sure, you'll tear one section of the balloon, what about having 3 or more segments for the hot air to be stored in? Then, in the event of a catastrophe, the dirigible would float down (albeit fast enough for maybe 2d6 or 3d6 points of subdual damage) to the ground/river/lake/what have you with few casualties. I can see this happening with a true ship below, making the landing at sea quite easy.
I do appreciate the comments here Wooly and Sage. You're keeping me on my toes 
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
 |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 07:07:42
|
I don't know if anyone is familiar with the Mystara Setting, but in it, Ships of the Air were much more common (both the Empires of Thyatis and Alphatia had an "air wing" to their navy).
In fact, Dalor Darden had a spherical ship. It wasn't small either, essentially it had the mass of a small castle, and more armaments than I can remember; but among them were:
Cannons (staffs) that launched fireballs
Cannons (staffs) that launched lightning bolts
Point Blank Defense Guns that fired magic missiles (wands)
Fighter Defense in the form of beast riders (on griffons, etc)
I think it would be possible for something like this to exist in the Forgotten Realms; but it would be a magical undertaking of serious scale.
The benefit of the Sphere was that it had no open decks for an enemy to land on; but lots of portholes to launch attack from on its various levels.
It was constructed of a stone exterior with no cracks and also a stone interior (to ward off those pesky fires). The only access to the Sphere Ship was through a crystal teleportation lens on the bottom of the ship and a "hanger door" for the griffons and such; but even the hangar was protected by a wall of force that only allowed certain attuned beings to cross it (each had an attuned gem embedded in their skin for the mounts or kept somewhere VERY safe if on a person...I had a mishap when a mount and rider returned but the rider didn't have his gem because he lost his helm...a quick fix after that made sure the riders didn't lose their gemstone).
I don't recall its dimensions off hand, but I am pretty sure it had over a dozen floors inside and was most likely over 200 feet in diameter.
Of course, in Mystara there were spells specifically made to create flying ships...but again, I don't recall them being very high in level; and so I don't see why a dedicated line of spells couldn't be created just the same in the Realms. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 11:45:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The dragon is still going to be a lot more maneuverable than the airship. And a dragon doesn't just have its breath weapon -- most dragons have spells of their own. And even if the airship stands up to the breath weapon, one good swipe of the dragon's claws and that ship is making one last journey -- a fast one straight down. Even if you cover the thing with weapon emplacements, that dragon only has to get close once -- and considering how tough dragons are, that wouldn't be a challenge. And of course you could load the ship with spellslingers -- but that's not an efficient use of magical resources, and that same amount of magical resources could be devoted towards making a proper skyship that would be a lot harder to bring down.
As for engines to make the airship go fast... Even if you could somehow make a steam engine that efficient, the weight would be prohibitive. Even using heat metal or something, you've still got the weight of the engine itself, plus the weight of all the water in it... Those engines would likely weigh so much that weapons and/or a large enough crew to defend the ship would not be possible. A balloon big enough to lift one of those engines would be too big to adequately defend, even from a flock of bored sparrows.
For sure the dirigible isn't as maneuverable, it just needs to outrun said dragon. Thankfully there aren't many of the great wyrms out & about. The real threats here become white, brass, and gold dragons. The latter two are unlikely threats unless the dirigible is stealing from them. The former, being a territorial evil dragon, would likely want to eat it.
Let's think about a tactical "double movement" speed of 600 feet per round. Well outside of charging range, as well as well outside of breath weapon.
Leaving those thoughts for a moment, and hear me out...
Flying fortresses, using this type of technology (and an obscene amount of hot air/engine) with the capability of holding flights of Griffons, Hippogriffs, and other nasty flying monsters in addition to spellslingers and such. No, this isn't about that (although I can see this in an age of reason true Steampunk game, not in my 1370's/1380's Faerun).
What I'm thinking as a feasable use for this type of technology is short range travel. Nothing grandiose, and in a well documented shipping/travel lane. Thus the reason I think Lantan would have them, but wouldn't use them for military purposes (yet). If they ever find a tear-resistant material that's light enough for this (think lightweight Kevlar hot air balloons), they would likely expand to more... dangerous routes.
Another part to this that you have to think about, is the design of the balloon itself. Sure, you'll tear one section of the balloon, what about having 3 or more segments for the hot air to be stored in? Then, in the event of a catastrophe, the dirigible would float down (albeit fast enough for maybe 2d6 or 3d6 points of subdual damage) to the ground/river/lake/what have you with few casualties. I can see this happening with a true ship below, making the landing at sea quite easy.
I do appreciate the comments here Wooly and Sage. You're keeping me on my toes
/d
How is this airship going to outrun a dragon? As I pointed out, the weight of steam engines is going to be a hugely limiting factor on what you can do with an airship, and having magic enough to do it means you have magic enough to go for something not as vulnerable as a big bag of air.
Also, being able to outrun something is only good if it's behind you. If it's coming in from your front, all that extra speed is going to do is help it do more damage on a physical attack. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Feb 2010 11:48:54 |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 13:18:10
|
The other problem with your proposition, Darkmeer, is that you're comparing apples and oranges. Sure, the Hindenberg went 80 mph, but it was first, much bigger than anything you could realistically create with Realms technology and second, used hydrogen. Hydrogen as a lift agent (or even helium) is FAR superior to the hot air that our theoretical Realms balloon would use. This means any equivalent-sized airship using hot air will only be able to carry a fraction of the load a hydrogen airship could carry. This is in addition to the hideous weight of the water and the machinery needed to move it, as Wooly pointed out.
The end result is that I don't think however you finagle it a dirgible-type airship would be practical from a physics or a defense point of view. With extreme magical make-overs you might be able to do it, but the end result would be even more expensive, and less effective, than existing Halruaan airships, and it would be FAR less effective than just slapping a spelljamming helm into the ship. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 15:00:34
|
My arguement didn't rely solely on a steam engine, but a coal furnace for the hot air. The coal would burn longer than oil, thus be more efficient for the weight. Where does the steam engine come in? This is a series of vents and coal furnace. The only thing I'd say I would add is a bellows type device to force more hot air through, thus provide more lift and more moving air for the propulsion.
Doing it that way would probably give it a maximum range of around 75 miles or so, so you wouldn't be able to outrun the dragon for more than an hour... but that's not the point of this.
No, I'm not trying to compare apples and oranges, I merely used the Hindenberg as a reference for the speed of the skyship, not actually use Hydrogen. I completely agree that a Hot-Air type of skyship would be much less efficient than a hydrogen one in the real world. I'm arguing a fantastical approach. Ignore the reality for a moment, and believe that something like this is possible. Again, I'm using a Final Fantasy reference for what is possible, as I consider that to be truly fantastical technology versus magic (Final Fantasy VI is my primary example).
In that game, you have a skyship flown using a hot-air balloon and a full-sized naval-style ship below. The engine and/or the main weight of the ship (keeping it in balance) could be the water, as there are only 2 decks, leaving an entire deck for held water. It's used for overland travel in-game.
My example is very similar to this, but the difference is that I'm not asking for range, I'm asking for the ability to do it at all. A 75-mile (one hour) range is all I'd want to allow, initially. Thus the reason for not being worried at all about the size of the engine or anything. It's thematic, not overly gamebreaking (you spend lots of gold, and get to cut travel times down by 1/3 when you're flying... unless it's over water, which cuts it down significantly more). Now, if someone had access to create water and a steam engine, and cast it a lot of times, it's possible that the range could be increased. As could the range be increased with a decanter of endless water. But I'm suppositioning that the Lantanese don't want magic there at all. They want to live or die by their tech (and probably will!).
Remember, guys, that the Halruans desperately protect the technology that keeps the skyships aloft. The Lantanese could be experimenting with this technology so that they can sell it, or create a cheaper (albeit dirtier) version of what Halruaa does for commercial or military use.
And yes, I realize the military use would be moot due to the balloon's vulnerability, but troop movement may be an issue... Especially if you can move them a 3-day march in 1 hour, albeit it would be only 50 or so soldiers. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 19 Feb 2010 15:02:12 |
|
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 15:28:48
|
Adding more, from the So Saith Ed archive (specifically the July 31, 2004 reply):
quote:
from the "So Saith Ed Archive"
"steam engines (monstrous "rolling-beam" stationary types, akin to those found in Cornish tin mines and elsewhere AND tiny 'using a fire one builds in a bowl' sorts) are in common use all over Lantan, but remain "dangerous" curiosities elsewhere (although many Faerunians know about harnessing the hot gas from a fire collected through a hood-and-pipe apparatus). As several posters have mentioned, Gond rules such pursuits, and copious prayers to him will be a part of any steam-work. What the Realms DOESN'T yet have is reliable steam propulsion (locomotives, that is -- although miners'-sweatwork and donkey- or mule-drawn mining railways, with little 'tip' ore cars, ARE used here and there, and are known to all dwarves and gnomes). Distillation and other simple steam-related procedures are widely known if not widely understood."
This type of apparatus could be used for lift, if not propulsion. So, given that Lantan HAS the technology, why not have some fun with it? Something on par with Girl Genius? |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 19 Feb 2010 15:29:39 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 15:52:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
This type of apparatus could be used for lift, if not propulsion. So, given that Lantan HAS the technology, why not have some fun with it? Something on par with Girl Genius?
Funnily enough, I've toyed with the idea of Clanks being the unexpected result of experimentation by several Gondar on Lantan.
And I'll admit that the quoted portion of Ed's reply above played a small part in the formulation of that idea.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 16:06:51
|
| I throw up my hands and abandon the discussion. I have explained multiple times why this kind of airship would not work, and have had my explanations been brushed off. Rule of Cool will only get you so far; things must obey the physics of the setting and the rules of the setting, and all of those make any sort of hot air balloon based flying machine impractical at best and suicidal at worst. If you want to do it, fine, it's your game. But I don't feel the need to constantly rehash these arguments over and over. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 16:34:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I throw up my hands and abandon the discussion. I have explained multiple times why this kind of airship would not work, and have had my explanations been brushed off. Rule of Cool will only get you so far; things must obey the physics of the setting and the rules of the setting, and all of those make any sort of hot air balloon based flying machine impractical at best and suicidal at worst. If you want to do it, fine, it's your game. But I don't feel the need to constantly rehash these arguments over and over.
I'm not trying to offend Hoondatha. I agreed that the physics of it won't work in the real world. Believe me, I understand that this is a "rule of cool" type of thing, and beyond that these things should border on suicidal! It's a matter of figuring out how to make it happen and be fun! Sure the players should be skeptical of such a thing, that's part of the fun on MY side of the DM screen. But when it lifts off, they'll go "This is so cool!" And they'll be ferried between Lantan and Suj just fine... until a baloon pops  The whole thing is orchestrated to be fun as well as provide a bit of a thrill to the players, why does it have to follow so much logic?
I won't argue physics in a world where a person can twiddle their thumbs and ignore gravity for a bit... either by falling upwards or actual flight. It's off-putting, and it's not what I'm trying to say here. I agreed that the physics aren't going to work, and logistically it's going to be a nightmare. But that's part of this that makes it special. The nightmare of logistics should make it something the players take notice of.
I am arguing to make magic and technology indistinguishable for a moment. Let the tech work. I'm not arguing to do this on the main continent (gods, it wouldn't fit the theme or the idea of the rest of the Realms), I'm arguing it in the place where Technology is known to exist (by Ed's own words), and may bend the normal rules that Oghma has placed on the rest of the continent. Sure, it's not going to follow any real-world tech or logic (neither does Girl Genius or selected parts of Steampunk stories). I'm okay with that.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
|
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 16:50:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
This type of apparatus could be used for lift, if not propulsion. So, given that Lantan HAS the technology, why not have some fun with it? Something on par with Girl Genius?
Funnily enough, I've toyed with the idea of Clanks being the unexpected result of experimentation by several Gondar on Lantan.
And I'll admit that the quoted portion of Ed's reply above played a small part in the formulation of that idea.
I remember Ed saying something of that nature in another ask Ed moment as well as something about Girl Genius (thus my line afterwards). Still searching for it, I think it was 2006 sometime. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 00:30:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
My arguement didn't rely solely on a steam engine, but a coal furnace for the hot air. The coal would burn longer than oil, thus be more efficient for the weight. Where does the steam engine come in? This is a series of vents and coal furnace. The only thing I'd say I would add is a bellows type device to force more hot air through, thus provide more lift and more moving air for the propulsion.
Doing it that way would probably give it a maximum range of around 75 miles or so, so you wouldn't be able to outrun the dragon for more than an hour... but that's not the point of this.
No, I'm not trying to compare apples and oranges, I merely used the Hindenberg as a reference for the speed of the skyship, not actually use Hydrogen. I completely agree that a Hot-Air type of skyship would be much less efficient than a hydrogen one in the real world. I'm arguing a fantastical approach. Ignore the reality for a moment, and believe that something like this is possible. Again, I'm using a Final Fantasy reference for what is possible, as I consider that to be truly fantastical technology versus magic (Final Fantasy VI is my primary example).
In that game, you have a skyship flown using a hot-air balloon and a full-sized naval-style ship below. The engine and/or the main weight of the ship (keeping it in balance) could be the water, as there are only 2 decks, leaving an entire deck for held water. It's used for overland travel in-game.
My example is very similar to this, but the difference is that I'm not asking for range, I'm asking for the ability to do it at all. A 75-mile (one hour) range is all I'd want to allow, initially. Thus the reason for not being worried at all about the size of the engine or anything. It's thematic, not overly gamebreaking (you spend lots of gold, and get to cut travel times down by 1/3 when you're flying... unless it's over water, which cuts it down significantly more). Now, if someone had access to create water and a steam engine, and cast it a lot of times, it's possible that the range could be increased. As could the range be increased with a decanter of endless water. But I'm suppositioning that the Lantanese don't want magic there at all. They want to live or die by their tech (and probably will!).
Remember, guys, that the Halruans desperately protect the technology that keeps the skyships aloft. The Lantanese could be experimenting with this technology so that they can sell it, or create a cheaper (albeit dirtier) version of what Halruaa does for commercial or military use.
And yes, I realize the military use would be moot due to the balloon's vulnerability, but troop movement may be an issue... Especially if you can move them a 3-day march in 1 hour, albeit it would be only 50 or so soldiers.
You're still going to need a huge amount of coal, and a large amount of some heavy form of metal for the boiler. And water isn't light, either. I don't think steam technology is advanced far enough in the Realms to generate that kind of speed -- remember, the Hindenburg's speed came from four diesel engines, and diesel engines came along after and followed a lot of refining of steam engines. The Hindenburg was also more than 800 feet long, and yet only carried about 100 people.
A steam engine powerful enough to propel something at that kind of speed would be very large, and weigh several tons. You'd need tons more of coal or water, plus a crew to operate just the engine -- real world steam engines relied on a person shoveling coal; it took a while for them to develop systems that did away with this.
Now, look at the size of a real-world hot air ballon. Those ballons are relatively large, and they only hold a few hundred pounds. You'd have to increase the size of the balloon to an unmanageable (and certainly indefensible) size to be able to loft a steam engine big enough to move it at any kind of speed.
It's simply not possible given Realms technology -- I'm not sure it's all that feasible in the real world, either.
You can either have a slow lighter-than-air craft, or you can have something magical. You can't have a fast lighter-than-air craft in the Realms without magic; the technology simply does not exist.
"Lighter-than-air" means exactly that: something that weighs less than the air it displaces.
Now, you also mentioned Halruaan tech for keeping their skyships aloft... I'm a little puzzled by this, since Halruaans use magic, not technology, to keep their ships in the air. Halruaan skyships are simply not relevant to a discussion of non-magical lighter-than-air vessels. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Feb 2010 00:32:18 |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 03:43:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
"Lighter-than-air" means exactly that: something that weighs less than the air it displaces.
Now, you also mentioned Halruaan tech for keeping their skyships aloft... I'm a little puzzled by this, since Halruaans use magic, not technology, to keep their ships in the air. Halruaan skyships are simply not relevant to a discussion of non-magical lighter-than-air vessels.
Sorry, meant Magical Technology (i.e. the magical discs placed about the ships to keep them aloft).
My argument was to make both Magic and Technology look the same, but with slightly different effects. Perhaps, just perhaps there is a good way to do this, and THAT is what I'm looking for, with the basis primarily in Technology.
Now, onto the other part of my argument:
The 3.0 Arme & equipment guide. It actually lists both a Zeppelin and a Dirigible, and actually lists them as "relying on hot air trapped in massive ballons" (actually from the book). Now the part of this that is conceded is that the book actually states that the vehicles rely on magic for either lift or propulsion.
No big deal here, as we know that this is incorrect, but let's stretch the imagination a bit.
So, let's use the Zeppelin, both since it's bigger, and would better serve the example. You have a crew of 10 people, with 10,000 tons of cargo space. This is after the vehicle is built (no weight is listed for the vehicle). So let's be fair, and take 2 tons of that space away for fuel capacity. So, you have 8,000 pounds for stuff and/or passengers (more likely in my mind). Let's say the average adventurer weighs 400 pounds fully geared up and with most every worldly possesion with them (minus furniture). That's 20 adventurers. Safe bet that you don't have a party of 20 that wants to use such a thing.
Now, onto the speed defense. You won't win any speed competitions here. It's wind speed x20 feet. So, that dragon you're running from? Yeah, you're toast. The novelty, however, may actually spare you from a dragon. It's the perytons and other nasty creatures that I'm worried about, myself. Honestly, this is the only part of the argument that I have issues with myself.
Plainly, there isn't a reason for such a creature to put themselves at such risks unless they are trying to avoid wholesale magics, or, in the case of the Realms, trying to create something similiar to what the Halruans and the Netherese are doing. Sadly, as I said above, they guard the details of these things' creation with their lives. And, in some cases, Mystra's Ban comes into play (I believe for the Netherese cities this is the case, rather than the rarely-but-still-produced Halruan skyships).
So, I'm agreeing with everyone here. The tech requires magic (at least) to help it work. Gond's blessing and such would help here. Now, with the advent of both working together, some truly wondrous things can happen. So you've got people using purely magic, purely technology, and then those that use neither or both. Thus, the magic versus technology idea comes very much into play.
***
Thank you sfdragon for that link! That is a most wondrous group of Zeppelins indeed! 
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 20 Feb 2010 03:53:10 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 04:12:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by darkelf15962
What kind of skyship is depicted on the cover of the Shining South Supplement? It looks like a zeppelin and I WANT ONE. Also where could my character get one?
Get a Spelljammer, and say it looks like that picture. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 04:33:06
|
Well a few comments.
We now know hot air works in the Realms and steam engines work as well.
Most in this discussion concede magic would be used in the construction of a blimp, if only for defense. Oh indeed it might be possible to build a mundane one, however the size and speed would be problems concerning load and combat (We do not know hydrogen even exists in the Realms).
The one thing that clearly occurs to me during the discussion was the speed of a Zeppelin. Speed is not a factor in aerial combat as a sole factor. Even if someone builds the fastest thing in the Realms, short of fleeing from everything else that flies it can be attacked and defeated. I grant the slower speed flyer is at a disadvantage as to speed, this is a given. Tactics however over comes this for a nation of some power (lessor powers can not support any type of air force). A single attack, the speed allows the blimp to win (if inclined to attack) on a first travel over, however the first attack unless completely successful will not be the last one. The slower fliers can be in front of a faster flyer on the returning visit to the target. Of course from a tactical perspective and rules, the dive also would be used. I have used the tactic against a Dragon and clearly the tactic would be more effective against a blimp (larger size and less intelligent as a flying creature).
Oh maintaining any air force clearly has a cost, however building a blimp also has a cost. Any battle, in the end comes down to willingness to resupply. A fast flyer clearly can defeat (escape or kill) slower ones often, however the slower flier as a group and planning can take out the blimp. I can field hundreds of slower flier for the cost of one blimp. With proper use of tactics it might be I lose 25 percent of initial costs, compared to the cost of the blimp, to take it down.
Oh after I take down the first line of blimp(s) indeed those builders would make improvements (adding costs to construction of each) to defend against such attacks of something like a Harpy. However a defender might add others or increased numbers of air force to attack the thing for a lower cost in many cases.
The blimp, much like other things, would be cool to have in the game if you have it as a character or DM. Any good DM has a way a party can take out a hazard and of course if making one.
It clearly should go to say the first blimp floating over a land that had no air defense, that land clearly would tend to surrender to the power, in name at least. Even a land that surrendered under threat from the air, there clearly would be counter-rule opposition from the people on the ground.
|
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 15:20:18
|
If one wanted a balloon or blimp in the Realms in the first place, wouldn't it then be easiest to just call it magic? Instead of gas its a captured air elemental of some sort that gives it the ability to fly. Maybe some ancient summoners tried out the idea centuries ago before the sky ships were invented. The ships are of a higher quality, but the secrets of the balloons/blimps are easier to come by, so they are still in use by some mages.
That's the good thing about fantasy and Science- fantasy in comparison to serious Sci-fi, everything can be excused if one just calls it supernatural. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 16:09:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
If one wanted a balloon or blimp in the Realms in the first place, wouldn't it then be easiest to just call it magic? Instead of gas its a captured air elemental of some sort that gives it the ability to fly. Maybe some ancient summoners tried out the idea centuries ago before the sky ships were invented. The ships are of a higher quality, but the secrets of the balloons/blimps are easier to come by, so they are still in use by some mages.
That's the good thing about fantasy and Science- fantasy in comparison to serious Sci-fi, everything can be excused if one just calls it supernatural.
That sounds kinda like the ships the Eber-whatsit setting has. That was one of the few aspects of that setting that really intrigued me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 17:29:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
If one wanted a balloon or blimp in the Realms in the first place, wouldn't it then be easiest to just call it magic? Instead of gas its a captured air elemental of some sort that gives it the ability to fly. Maybe some ancient summoners tried out the idea centuries ago before the sky ships were invented. The ships are of a higher quality, but the secrets of the balloons/blimps are easier to come by, so they are still in use by some mages.
That's the good thing about fantasy and Science- fantasy in comparison to serious Sci-fi, everything can be excused if one just calls it supernatural.
That sounds kinda like the ships the Eber-whatsit setting has. That was one of the few aspects of that setting that really intrigued me.
It's a somewhat more involved procedure than simply "capturing an air elemental."
For those curious about this particular aspect of EBERRON, I'd recommend the 3e Magic of Eberron tome which has a full section detailing the setting's unique 'elemental binding' processes.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 17:43:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
For those curious about this particular aspect of EBERRON, I'd recommend the 3e Magic of Eberron tome which has a full section detailing the setting's unique 'elemental binding' processes.
I did not know about that... I guess I'll be hunting down my third Eber-whatsit book. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 23:21:58
|
| The balloon aspect does allow one to achieve lift through easier methods than the purely magical lift of the skyships. That does not prevent the operator or owner of a balloon from enhancing the balloon with other magic, perhaps not to the extent of the Halruaans and their skyships, but certainly something. Just like those arguments about traditional castles in fantasy settings with fairly high magic like the D&D settings. A castle is rarely just a castle once the designers have a moment to think about it. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 00:24:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
For those curious about this particular aspect of EBERRON, I'd recommend the 3e Magic of Eberron tome which has a full section detailing the setting's unique 'elemental binding' processes.
I did not know about that... I guess I'll be hunting down my third Eber-whatsit book.
The book is well worth the purchase, for most of the magic-based material presented has offered a wealth of new ideas and possibilities for most of my other long-running campaigns. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 03:04:35
|
back in the day, ancient Netheril had some elemental airships...
I think they were detailed in Lost Empires or MAgic of FAerun.
they were not ever detailed in depths though |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
|
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 02:12:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
back in the day, ancient Netheril had some elemental airships...
I think they were detailed in Lost Empires or MAgic of FAerun.
they were not ever detailed in depths though
Wouldn't that be similar to the Halruan skyships currently in use? I'll look and see, but I can't see the Netherese in blimps for some reason. Then again, early Netheril might be a possibility, but I don't know. I just think that they were an "ancient" civilization, as opposed to "modern" Faerunians, who do have the right tech level at this point.
Then again, it might be an interesting exercise in throwing people off in an Arcane Age campaign. I say go for it!
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 22 Feb 2010 02:14:29 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 03:08:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
back in the day, ancient Netheril had some elemental airships...
I think they were detailed in Lost Empires or MAgic of FAerun.
they were not ever detailed in depths though
Wouldn't that be similar to the Halruan skyships currently in use? I'll look and see, but I can't see the Netherese in blimps for some reason. Then again, early Netheril might be a possibility, but I don't know. I just think that they were an "ancient" civilization, as opposed to "modern" Faerunians, who do have the right tech level at this point.
Then again, it might be an interesting exercise in throwing people off in an Arcane Age campaign. I say go for it!
/d
The Netherese developed Skyship-like vessels. And these earlier designs are probably what became the basis for the Halruaan-developed Skyship which is in use throughout the Realms today -- based largely on previous research and design techniques established by the Netherese.
The 3e Shining South tome notes that Raumark, and his fellow Netherese wizards, fled Netheril on those earlier Netherese-developed Skyship designs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 05:34:52
|
| Netheril also had true spelljammers however. They gave humanity a really bad name in Realmspace, because they had the nasty habit of vivisecting everything they came across to learn more about it. I know there was a 10th or 11th level spell that essentially created your own super-helm, but I don't remember if the Arcane also sold to the Neth or not. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 22 Feb 2010 05:35:57 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 06:11:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Netheril also had true spelljammers however. They gave humanity a really bad name in Realmspace, because they had the nasty habit of vivisecting everything they came across to learn more about it.
Indeed. The Netherese had explored spelljamming, but decided, ultimately, that it wasn't for them. You'll find their reasons why on pg. 9 of Netheril: Empire of Magic -- under "Realmspace."
quote:
I know there was a 10th or 11th level spell that essentially created your own super-helm, but I don't remember if the Arcane also sold to the Neth or not.
Well, the Netherese had to rely on the Arcane for just about all their spelljamming needs. But you're probably thinking of Valdick's Spheresail, a Level 10 arcane spell which was developed by the archwizard Valdick. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2010 : 16:36:15
|
I'm curious to see whether the Netherese elemental skyships resemble anything like the skyships of Earthdawn fame. I'll have to look that up.
The info is all in the Arcane age book available at Wizards for free, right Sage? |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2010 : 23:49:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
The info is all in the Arcane age book available at Wizards for free, right Sage?
Mostly. There's a few choice tidbits in 3e's Shining South as well, but they're kind of peppered throughout the entry on Halruaa. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 16:38:00
|
| I may have missed a mention of this, but on page ten of Dwarves Deep airships are mentioned among the spectacular failures of the dwarven craftsmen. Well, maybe the gold dwarves managed to correct this. Sounds like something I might use at a later date. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 21:42:36
|
Here's a thought. If one used a levitate spell and perhaps a control winds spell on the balloon, it would have the same effect (basically) as using a huge and very heavy engine or furnace and the fuel to power it, without taking up any space or weight. One could used the spells to direct the airship/balloon, and it would be neither as expensive as a straight tech one, nor a large group of attack fliers (if we're talking armies, here). Against things like dragons, it would still be fast, if not very maneuverable, unless one wanted to add some sort of directional rudders or something. I like the idea of putting a platform on top, or better yet, have a platform "ring" around the middle, with the balloon suspended with ropes inside. Much easier to defend both from above and below, and the advantage of being able to station defenders in all directions (I like the wands and staffs idea) would make even a dragon think twice about attacking! Range would be less of a problem, as well, since the spells could be cast to last more or less indefinitely, or activated at will.
Of course, if you wanted to go the tech route and use engines or furnace, I'd used mithril as a construction material, since it's much lighter than other metals, and just as strong. Coal would be the best fuel source, I think. (Why would you even consider steam-power? It's too complicated.) Weight might still be something of an issue, but magically lightening the load (there's a spell for that!) would help. That's just my two cents, mind you. I could certainly see Gondsmen and Lantanese doing this- in fact, I have a group of islands in my homebrew world peopled by gnomes who use just such derigibles among their technologies! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Skyships
